Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[HandomeDan]

I approve of this message!

[Ebithril]

From first post:

(Not spoiler, jsut wanted an easy way to compress my quotes on his post.)

 

Hello,

 

Before you label me a Troll please read my Early Review here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=76222

 

Note: Please, if you agree with these points and this subject, rate the thread. Perhaps this will raise Bioware's awareness. Anything we can do to make SW:TOR the best it can be because the truth is you and I are here because we want it to succeed and we see it's potential.

 

The game has been out long enough for the masses to finally realize the negatives. As people are getting out of the starting planets and the "new and shiny" feeling starts to subside, the cracks in this new wonderous world are becoming apparent.

 

Ability Delay and Character Responsiveness: -- It is not Latency or FPS Lag

 

I will attempt to discuss this issue and I will do so in a manner that I hope will make everyone understand it better. The "Character Responsiveness" for lack of a better term, is how "smooth" the game plays from your avatars perspective. I have played SWG and EQ to a lesser degree as well as Warhammer Online and several other MMOs and I must honestly say that Bioware has gotten this all too important aspect much better than any previous MMO that I have experienced (with the obvious exception, to which we will get soon).

 

You see, I really want you (The Reader) to understand the importance of this topic. To drive home "how" important this is. In fact I will say this: I am in no way shy to say that, the reason Warhammer Online, EQs, Rift, SWG etc. etc. could never "ever" get to anything near WoW subscriptions is the Character Responsiveness. All these games failed for many reasons, and a game "can" fail for many reasons and on many fronts but this single-one-category... is by "far" the #1 Reason why World of Warcraft is World of Warcraft.

 

Again, I must drive home the fact that no matter if you understand this issue or are new to the subject (and perhaps MMOs) or if you believe the game is fun and enjoyable and think that this is just a vocal minority piping up on something nonsensical. This is the undeniable truth and any game developer or serious gamer worth their salt will agree.

 

 

What is Character Responsiveness and Ability Delay? -- It is not Latency or FPS lag

 

It is the feeling of connection between the person behind the keyboard and the Avatar that is being controlled. Basically, the better the Character Responsiveness is, the smoother the Game Plays! You may HATE World of Warcraft and believe it is the worst abomination on the planet... that is fine. HOWEVER, you "must" objectively admit that it is the absolute, smoothest Character Responsiveness in a Western Available MMO ever.

 

If you are a WoW player, and have played WoW with any amount of skill, competitiveness, you cannot help but cringe when in a Warzone in SW:TOR. It feels unresponsive, frustrating... as if something is wrong with you! but there is nothing you can do about it!

 

If you have never played WoW, perhaps you come from SWG or EQ2 or Rift etc. that is fine! You are WELCOME in this thread, it is not WoW Players against the Rest! I just "need" you to understand that SW:TOR is "noticeably" and "objectively" bad in this crucial department. I am not writing this because I am trolling or because I love WoW, on the contrary. I am doing this because I want SW:TOR to be amazing, I love so many aspects of this great game... but if this is not addressed it "will" die like every other one.

 

 

Why is this "so" important?! -- It is not Latency or FPS lag

 

From here on I will say 0.5 for emphasis but reality is 0.2, 0.3 (ANY) Ability Delay is unacceptable.

 

And here is the real problem. It is so important because MMO gaming has become so "tight", so competitive and so smooth (through WoW), that it is completely and absolutely unacceptable for an ability or animation to be delayed by 0.5 seconds.

 

0.5 seconds is a lot of time, to our visual cortex. 0.5 seconds is the difference between interrupting a CC of the enemy player or not (and thus being disadvantaged/dying). 0.5 seconds is the difference between landing a Taunt on the "add" that just came into the room and thus having it come to you or it one-shotting your healer and thus wiping on the Boss you've just spent 3 Days wiping to.

 

Zero Point Five Seconds is a ******* Long Time

 

 

Bioware, I plead that you dedicate as many resources as required (all if needed) to address this. You cannot cram story/companions/new flashpoints - operations... Class Balance into patches and hope that is good enough.

 

I hate to be a crazed doomsayer but I must state: Mark my words, if SW:TOR's Character Responsiveness and Ability Delay is not on par with WoW's by March-June it will be just another Rift.

 

Bioware, please see the importance of Character Responsiveness and Visual Stimulation of Ability Animation Correctness. It should be impossible for me to have an ability's cooldown activated without seeing it animate.... this is unacceptable. I just truly hope that this isn't a core coding issue or engine issue, because then we're f'd.

 

 

 

P.S.: It is not Latency or FPS Lag... also very important to understand.

 

 

 

I second this, in every sentence he is speaknig of!

[tehmoose]

The lag after the animation is consistent, but then there is lag before/during/after the animation that is completely random. Like something takes 3.2 seconds to cast one time, then 3.6 seconds to cast another, but everything else moves the same speed both times. Then there's the lag after the ability that delays it further. It like lag in other games, the stuttering, but it's attached to your abilities only. The videos in the other thread point them out well.

 

Reposting this cause it may have gotten buried. I should probably put it in my sig... if I could be bothered.

 

[Corwingeorge]

Reposting this cause it may have gotten buried. I should probably put it in my sig... if I could be bothered.

 

 

[Seismax]

Reposting this cause it may have gotten buried. I should probably put it in my sig... if I could be bothered.

 

 

With 40ms my delay is even higher, I can get fully mounted and take 1 step before getting punted off(and having the companion return)

[Pythoris]

So there are slightly differing definitions of what the problem is...

And some say different per class...or PvE vs PvP... or even different servers.

Animations. GCD's. Client server sync.

 

 

All I have to say is this: I like my BH Merc's animations. They look like an actual person doing them. That is good.

 

If this supposed "problem" can be fixed WITHOUT messing with those animations, then I'm fine with any changes. But if the so-called "fix" is to remove the kinesthetically realistic animations, then screw that!

 

I'm starting to wonder if many (though not all) of the posts here are just a "whine-fest" of people who think they should be able to rapid-fire spam buttons as fast as they can. If that is the case, then I quote the cutesy kiddies in saying "l2p."

 

 

I like the animations for the characters in this game as well. But sacrificing working gameplay just so your bounty hunter can look "ZOMG KEWLSAUCEBBQ" while firin his lazors is about as practical as throwing the baby out with the bath water. If Bioware has to rework animations so that people can actually play the game without a stall or delay in their combat sequences, then fine by me. Hey, they may even make animations a bit cooler after the retooling.

 

Then again, maybe not. All I know is, it's somewhat stupid to be willing to ignore broken gameplay mechanics just because you feel certain cosmetic aspects of the game's combat sequences looks good and you want to keep it that way. If looks really mean so much more than gameplay to you, then have I got a game for you!

[Zotek]

I used to play alot of competitive arena back in the-game-that-shall-not-be-named, and after my first swtor warzone i felt something was off. It felt like the character was working against me rather than with me. Thanks to your post, i could finally put my finger on it!

 

Please look into this bioware - for the benefit of the masses and yourselves!

[Smoda]

I don't totally agree with your argument OP but I do like the fact that you took the time to make a reasonable one.

[Feskitt]

I like the animations for the characters in this game as well. But sacrificing working gameplay just so your bounty hunter can look "ZOMG KEWLSAUCEBBQ" while firin his lazors is about as practical as throwing the baby out with the bath water. If Bioware has to rework animations so that people can actually play the game without a stall or delay in their combat sequences, then fine by me. Hey, they may even make animations a bit cooler after the retooling.

 

Then again, maybe not. All I know is, it's somewhat stupid to be willing to ignore broken gameplay mechanics just because you feel certain cosmetic aspects of the game's combat sequences looks good and you want to keep it that way. If looks really mean so much more than gameplay to you, then have I got a game for you!

Yet I seem to have no issues that others are complaining about. I don't see how it is "broken." Maybe cause I actually wait for the animation/cooldown to end before hitting my next move? Go figure. (again, I'm only speaking for my lvl 48 BH Merc, in mostly PvE (til I hit 50, then more PvP) so not necessarily generalized to other classes)

 

 

Heck, if I'm feeling really "aggressive," I can 'piggyback' certain attacks into one another, firing off 2 almost simultaneously!

 

Yeah, AFAIK I'm not having any real issue here. And like I said, I love that my BH actually moves like a real human being, not spazzing out like some anime hack-n-slash kewlnewss.

 

 

[Pythoris]

Yet I seem to have no issues that others are complaining about. I don't see how it is "broken." Maybe cause I actually wait for the animation/cooldown to end before hitting my next move? Go figure. (again, I'm only speaking for my lvl 48 BH Merc, in mostly PvE (til I hit 50, then more PvP) so not necessarily generalized to other classes)

 

 

Heck, if I'm feeling really "aggressive," I can 'piggyback' certain attacks into one another, firing off 2 almost simultaneously!

 

Yeah, AFAIK I'm not having any real issue here. And like I said, I love that my BH actually moves like a real human being, not spazzing out like some anime hack-n-slash kewlnewss.

 

 

 

Then again, maybe you're not having a problem because

 

1. You're playing a class in which such a game-breaking problem wouldn't slow you down (I played a powertech BH for beta, and I had no problems either), or

 

2. You're simply too obsessed with the glamour and glitz that is the BH's "moves" (don't really seem all that special to me, but go fig) and simply are willing to put up with game-breaking features so you can continue to look "awesome-sauce-kewl-wtfbbq-boom".

 

Whichever the reason, the delay is definately there. And no, it's not a delay as in cooldowns or purposely implemented gameplay. If it were, I doubt that many people would be complaining about it, especially since the people complaining have said nothing about having a problem with cooldowns.

[Grumzz]

I agree fully 100%

[Arkimor]

Yet I seem to have no issues that others are complaining about. I don't see how it is "broken." Maybe cause I actually wait for the animation/cooldown to end before hitting my next move? Go figure. (again, I'm only speaking for my lvl 48 BH Merc, in mostly PvE (til I hit 50, then more PvP) so not necessarily generalized to other classes)

 

 

Heck, if I'm feeling really "aggressive," I can 'piggyback' certain attacks into one another, firing off 2 almost simultaneously!

 

Yeah, AFAIK I'm not having any real issue here. And like I said, I love that my BH actually moves like a real human being, not spazzing out like some anime hack-n-slash kewlnewss.

 

 

 

Go PvP, then get back to us. Seriously, get into a situation where it requires you to actually be quick and precise and this issue becomes massive.

 

(For the sake of balance, I'd also like to suggest raiding on hard mode)

[Halacs]

Yet I seem to have no issues that others are complaining about. I don't see how it is "broken." Maybe cause I actually wait for the animation/cooldown to end before hitting my next move? Go figure. (again, I'm only speaking for my lvl 48 BH Merc, in mostly PvE (til I hit 50, then more PvP) so not necessarily generalized to other classes)

 

 

Heck, if I'm feeling really "aggressive," I can 'piggyback' certain attacks into one another, firing off 2 almost simultaneously!

 

Yeah, AFAIK I'm not having any real issue here. And like I said, I love that my BH actually moves like a real human being, not spazzing out like some anime hack-n-slash kewlnewss.

 

 

 

Then change the cast time and the cast bar. Why even have them if they go by animation?

Edited December 27, 2011 by Halacs

[kattsu]

totally agree with OP i've played wow for 5 years(rogue/pally) and i can understand this smoothness you speak of,with that being said it was one of the reasons i dropped rift after the first month i indeed hope that BW looks over this because i wanna love the pvp in this game but things like this make it hard.

[Nephrahim]

Then change the cast time and the cast bar. Why even have them if they go by animation?

 

Even this would really really make me happy. I hate that stupid cast bar. Why the hell is it there if it doesn't TELL me anything.

[Seismax]

Yet I seem to have no issues that others are complaining about. I don't see how it is "broken." Maybe cause I actually wait for the animation/cooldown to end before hitting my next move? Go figure.

 

Pretty much explains why you're seeing no problem, the majority of gamers will NOT wait until an animation finishes to prep an ability.

 

I've played plenty of games that punished you for jumping the gun.... but all of them were by design, this game actually shows you both through the UI and animations that it's TRYING to take your commands.... it just doesn't.

[cornedbeef]

SWTOR Has an ability queue system rather than wows instant cast system.

 

In wow when i press a skill it instantly executes, stopping the last skill.

 

Here the last skill completes and then the skill i just pressed executes.

 

Different games, different systems.

[Greywinter]

great thread, hats off to the OP. I fully aggree with OP. This ability delay is killing the gameplay.

[baznasty]

Got my video up.

 

This is a perfect example of how it SHOULD be.

 

 

Enjoy and feedback please.

Edited December 27, 2011 by baznasty

[Seismax]

SWTOR Has an ability queue system rather than wows instant cast system.

 

In wow when i press a skill it instantly executes, stopping the last skill.

 

Here the last skill completes and then the skill i just pressed executes.

 

Different games, different systems.

 

If I could queue my abilities and not worry about it... that'd be an improvement, this is not what happens at all.

[Feelinestars]

This is the worst part about this medicore game.. the constant combat delay. This game isn't competing with WoW 2004, it's competing with WoW 2012.. and much to my chagrin, this game will only go to show how GOOD of a game WoW is. I want to like this game.. a lot, but there's so many idiotic design choices. The "ex-employee" who claimed that SW:TOR would be the biggest MMO flop was right.. this game will go the way of Rift, Aion, Warhammer.. and it was all hype. Only Blizzard makes good computer games, that's what we've all learned. Diablo 3, Starcraft 2, World of Warcraft.. it is the truth, we're all realizing..

[Caramel_Ham]

Yet I seem to have no issues that others are complaining about. I don't see how it is "broken." Maybe cause I actually wait for the animation/cooldown to end before hitting my next move? Go figure. (again, I'm only speaking for my lvl 48 BH Merc, in mostly PvE (til I hit 50, then more PvP) so not necessarily generalized to other classes)

 

 

Heck, if I'm feeling really "aggressive," I can 'piggyback' certain attacks into one another, firing off 2 almost simultaneously!

 

Yeah, AFAIK I'm not having any real issue here. And like I said, I love that my BH actually moves like a real human being, not spazzing out like some anime hack-n-slash kewlnewss.

 

 

 

I have a BH Powertech at level 13 and the problem is not as noticeable but the lag is still there. My friend who is a lvl 40 BG merc, when i asked him, also said he did notice lag between skills.

 

However on my Level 39 sorcerer lighting spec, the lag between skills is really noticeable. I can ofcourse work around that by getting used to the system...but then thats like im going back like 10 years ago.

[baznasty]

Got my video up.

 

This is a perfect example of how it SHOULD be.

 

 

Enjoy and feedback please.

 

Check this video out if you don't know what we mean when we say WoW has a tight system.

[tehmoose]

SWTOR Has an ability queue system

 

Here the last skill completes and then the skill i just pressed executes..

 

Sometimes.

 

Other times it doesn't queue, and other times it interrupts the current skill. Its kinda a crapshoot which happens really.

[Feskitt]

Go PvP, then get back to us. Seriously, get into a situation where it requires you to actually be quick and precise and this issue becomes massive.

 

(For the sake of balance, I'd also like to suggest raiding on hard mode)

 

Well, I did PvP briefly at lower levels. Gave far more than I got. (and my team actually won the Hutt-ball match, though all I did was frag enemies -- have no clue where the ball was LOL)

 

Once I hit 50 (2 more levels) I'll start PvP in earnest, is as my usual pattern in MMO's.