Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[Spetsnazos]

How that would suck, I feel that this game could achieve greatness by simply fixing this issue.

 

this but like the person you quoted, I highly doubt they will fix it. They will sweep this issue under the rug and hope that people don't raise this again.

 

Feeling connected to your character is INTEGRAL to having fun and enjoying your stay in the game. If you always feel like your character is working AGAINST you, then sorry this won't last very long.

 

They wont answer this issue and will continue their PR campaign of "we are adding new flashpoints and fixing bugs!!!", "we have 5,000 people working actively on the story of the game!".

 

As someone that has rerolled another character, there is very little replay value in listening to the quests again. Unless you are a die hard star wars fan, you will spacebar through most content(except main story) your second playthrough and you will seriously get irritated at all of the cutscenes(you've seen them before).

 

Feeling connected to your character...

[EagleFive]

First of all, thank you for your OP. I am sad to say that this is my first MMO, and this issue is noticeable even to me. I just couldn't put it into words before this thread, especially since I have no other experience to compare it to. The biggest problem for me, even though I do not consider myself a competitive PVP player, is that the ability delay creates a sense of disconnect that makes it difficult to feel truly immersed in the game. I am playing an Operative healer, and I cannot count the number of times I have to mash my heals and melee abilities because I am not sure when they will or won't fire. Also, I have all but completely quit using the cover mode because the issues there are magnified.

 

As a huge Star Wars and KOTOR fan, I see the great potential of this game and I hope that Bioware takes this type of feedback seriously. I am having a lot of fun so far in PvE as a level 27 Operative, but I feel like this issue is holding me back from a huge part of the game. I can only imagine what it's like to have a fluid combat system, as so many people in this thread praise WOW for. Since the problem is much more noticeable on some skills than others (those that have animations longer than the cast time), do you think that speeding up those animations would help alleviate the problem? And is that a feasible option without having to completely rebuild the game engine?

[Bleedsy]

I've played Rift since launch, and plan on continuing to get my PVP fix from it. It's been awhile since I've played WoW, but to me Rift's fluidity/responsiveness feels top notch.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0rAP2hx8wM < link to my last Rift PVP video. The scene that starts at :48 seconds just is NOT possible playing as a Sorc in SWTOR. At 3:25 is another example of something that I just could never do in SWTOR's engine, kiting while jumping backwards, starting timed casts in mid jump, etc. And it all feels smooth and responsive while I'm doing it.

 

I think somewhere early in development SWTOR chose animations > responsiveness, and the frustrations being vented in threads like this are the inevitable result.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Bleedsy

[Sonalan]

idk if this will actually cause the game to die. Sure, seasoned mmo players can tell combat is clunky and fragmented (broken is to strong of a word). But there are alot of players new to MMOs playing this game that don't know how fluid combat should feel. My guess is seasoned mmo players will last a month. Maybe 2. But then Bioware will start to see alot of de-subs. Pretty much any split second use of abilities is out of the question and this will cause the mechanics of high end ops and flashpoints to feel sloppy and ultimately cause ppl to leave.

 

The real question is: can this game survive on new mmo players' subscriptions and players that only care about the flash of the game.

 

But this is all just based on whether or not this problem gets resolved. Or even acknowledged.

[brandongs]

We just need to keep the thread alive and keep the discussion going.

 

In my experience with high profile games like this, the PR departments and/or project managers will never actually discuss this particular issue. It seems to be a rule of thumb in the video game industry that the devs never discuss actual problems they don't intend to fix or don't know if they are going to fix.

 

I have a really bad feeling that this issue will never be resolved. You could say I am a pessimist, but my guess is that it is a fundamental issue with the game's engine and it is not going to be easily fixed. Xcore pointed out all the games with ability delay and there was never an instance of any of those games getting it fixed. Warhammer Online pretty much only needed to fix that one issue to stay afloat and they failed rather than fix it.

 

Unfortunately, and sadly, I think this game will eventually collapse to this issue as well.

 

 

My thoughts exactly. I don't care that i'm infatuated with starwars, or that i had a pre-order to preorder the CE lol. Fact is, if the combat isn't perfect it can fall like the rest over time.

 

Quit WAR, Aion, and didn't even give rift a chance because of combat. I don't play WoW anymore cause after 7 years of azeroth, i'm just over it.

 

All i want to play is this game. I want my friends to play it. I want it to be amazing. I want people who don't play mmo's to of at least heard the name like they have WoW. I don't think people realize that combat is probably the main reason why people go back to WoW. Blizzard does it perfect. Hands down. GW2 probably won't be perfect either. Probably going to have to wait until Titan to get another solid mmo that isn't wow.

[Precarious]

/signed

[Xcore]

First of all, thank you for your OP. I am sad to say that this is my first MMO, and this issue is noticeable even to me. I just couldn't put it into words before this thread, especially since I have no other experience to compare it to. The biggest problem for me, even though I do not consider myself a competitive PVP player, is that the ability delay creates a sense of disconnect that makes it difficult to feel truly immersed in the game. I am playing an Operative healer, and I cannot count the number of times I have to mash my heals and melee abilities because I am not sure when they will or won't fire. Also, I have all but completely quit using the cover mode because the issues there are magnified.

 

As a huge Star Wars and KOTOR fan, I see the great potential of this game and I hope that Bioware takes this type of feedback seriously. I am having a lot of fun so far in PvE as a level 27 Operative, but I feel like this issue is holding me back from a huge part of the game. I can only imagine what it's like to have a fluid combat system, as so many people in this thread praise WOW for. Since the problem is much more noticeable on some skills than others (those that have animations longer than the cast time), do you think that speeding up those animations would help alleviate the problem? And is that a feasible option without having to completely rebuild the game engine?

 

I recommend WoW if you have not gotten into the MMO Scene, especially as a positive contrast to your gameplay experience here...

 

I'm not trying to sell you on WoW just trying to give you some "reading material"....

[TipsyDrow]

I read this post earlier and completely agreed with it. Then, when playing last night/this morning, I altered a few settings. Now, when you read this, you will think that I have lost my mind, but try it before you're convinced of that. (Hey, it's always possible that I have lost it!).

 

I adjusted my combat delay setting to the max of 1.0. My character now reacts very similarly to the video shown in the OP.

 

It sounds counter intuitive to INCREASE that setting, but it does actually make sense. That setting seems to allow the game to accept input while other skills are casting, queuing, or animating - up to 1 second early. You no longer have to have the twitch skills of an 11 year old boy on a sugar high. After trying it, I had my husband adjust it as well, and he also felt a drastic and noticeable difference, so it's not a single person's experience. The character responds when it should, and as expected, with out annoying delays on almost all skills.

 

Now, the caveat here, is that my rapid shot (basic BH skill, on the 1 key) is still not responsive, and completely breaks the flow feeling of all the other skills.

 

I was about to post something exactly like this. Thank you. Yes i can also attest that setting your que to 1.0 along with the patch today has made the flow much better for me also, But it doesn't fix the problem of when an animation is longer then a cooldown. The animation still takes precedence thus interupting combat flow. The fact that bioware put animation above combat flow boggles the mind but that's what they've done. If they can make the animations faster, so that all of them match there repspective cast times I think the flow problem would be solved. That said, my consular lvl 30ish has been deleted due to be being unplayable IMO. The JK is how ever at least playable at this point. Bioware, fix your animations, flash over gameplay is a bad idea folks.

Edited December 28, 2011 by TipsyDrow

[fallenvirtues]

Like I have stated, I like how the damage corresponds with the animations, but I wont front, it is buggy at times and abilities do lag...I dont experience it much personally, but I do sometimes...

 

I do believe they can fix this and it will be fixed...the last thing BW wants is for waves of people to start leaving over a mechanic that can be tweaked...I just cant see how it cant be fixed...I am not a programmer by any means, but ****...Someone created the system and Im sure someone can adjust and fix it until its perfect

 

Before I end this post though I must say...Dont you for one instant sit here and tell me you never experienced lag or bugged ability executing in WoW cause I know you are lying...There was plenty of times in raids and etc where I would have to hit an ability numerous times to make sure it executed...Lag happens to every game...But it is obvious its happening more then it should in TOR..

 

THEY WILL FIX IT!!! I BET MY BOTTOM DOLLAR!!!

[Xcore]

I've played Rift since launch, and plan on continuing to get my PVP fix from it. It's been awhile since I've played WoW, but to me Rift's fluidity/responsiveness feels top notch.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0rAP2hx8wM < link to my last Rift PVP video. The scene that starts at :48 seconds just is NOT possible playing as a Sorc in SWTOR. At 3:25 is another example of something that I just could never do in SWTOR's engine, kiting while jumping backwards, starting timed casts in mid jump, etc. And it all feels smooth and responsive while I'm doing it.

 

I think somewhere early in development SWTOR chose animations > responsiveness, and the frustrations being vented in threads like this are the inevitable result.

 

I have not been able to get into Rift because of the same issues in Character Responsiveness when it release (I tried) BUT, judging from people's more educated opinion and your very good video there which I enjoyed and was impressed with, it appears Rift is in fact very responsive and either has fixed the problem or it may have been on my end... thank you.

[Talsalus]

/signed

[Squizzo]

The issue seems to get progressively worse the longer I'm logged in. Started out this evening with the delay not seeming too bad, but after 2 - 3 hours the delay seems to be 5 times as bad and not just on attack animations, but everything from looting to opening my character sheet.

I've had 60-100ms all night, so I really don't know why the lag gets progressively worse.

[EagleFive]

The real question is: can this game survive on new mmo players' subscriptions and players that only care about the flash of the game.

 

As a new MMO player, I know I'd like to finish the story with my Operative and maybe give a Republic side character a try for the story. Although I have not yet experienced any kind of end-game content, I strongly suspect that I will grow tired once the story and "flash" is exhausted. To me, the difficulty of optimizing ability sequences, due to this ability delay, is really turning me off.

 

If it doesn't feel good to play, if it feels like I'm constantly battling the game engine instead of the in-game baddies, then I will probably not stick around for the long haul.

[Brodsk]

Is there an example of a sorcerer ability that should be doing this? The only spell I can think of that has a long animation is static barrier, but spells go off just fine during the static barrier animation, even if the animation doesn't start till afterward.

 

Try casting force lightning right after the casting of Lighnint stirke completes.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Brodsk

[Yjotun]

OP knows what hes talking about, this is a huge issue.

[Rhymez]

Try casting force lightning right after the casting of Lighnint stirke completes.

You can't.

 

This is what i do a lot.

 

I dont see any problem, my target is taking damage, but there is a bit of a delay when the force lightining animation kicks in, but the target starts taking damage as soon as i click it

[EagleFive]

I recommend WoW if you have not gotten into the MMO Scene, especially as a positive contrast to your gameplay experience here...

 

I'm not trying to sell you on WoW just trying to give you some "reading material"....

 

Thanks for the recommendation. Yet, I still have high hopes for this game, I really do... In part because the Star Wars universe appeals to me far more than the Warcraft universe (and I say that having played all three Warcraft RTS's heavily).

[JonnyBigBoss]

This is my only real gripe with the game. You'll see animations go off for things that didn't really even happen. The best part? The Global Cooldown trigger occurs, basically indicating that it happened even though it didn't.

 

This is a big problem for me, especially in competitive environments.

[Xcore]

Thanks for the recommendation. Yet, I still have high hopes for this game, I really do... In part because the Star Wars universe appeals to me far more than the Warcraft universe (and I say that having played all three Warcraft RTS's heavily).

 

Don't get me wrong, as do I. In fact, hope, passion for this game and belief in Bioware as a company is the reason I have created this thread and even tried contacting them personally to discuss/open dialogue... help... anything.

 

I do believe SW:TOR has the real potential of being "the next big thing" in the MMO industry but at the same time "I know" that this will not happen and in fact will turn out to fall flat on its face and become a failure in the MMO industry if this, "THIS" very particular issue is not ironed out.

 

 

 

I only regret not having been in the BETA, perhaps I could've voiced it months and months ago...

[JohnQuinn]

This is how it is in ALMOST EVERY MMO, and I mean, are the developers just clueless or what, do they never learn? It's clunky, and retarded. Same with jumping and turning, it's so clunky, loosing speed when jumping etc

[brandongs]

Don't get me wrong, as do I. In fact, hope, passion for this game and belief in Bioware as a company is the reason I have created this thread and even tried contacting them personally to discuss/open dialogue... help... anything.

 

I do believe SW:TOR has the real potential of being "the next big thing" in the MMO industry but at the same time "I know" that this will not happen and in fact will turn out to fall flat on its face and become a failure in the MMO industry if this, "THIS" very particular issue is not ironed out.

 

 

 

I only regret not having been in the BETA, perhaps I could've voiced it months and months ago...

 

People were voicing it in beta, which is what scares me. The ability que wasn't in builds before that, "everyone gets in weekend". I think they added it to solve the problem. It was absolutely terrible prior to.

Edited December 28, 2011 by brandongs

[Chaoswithin]

No issues you stated apart from the delay. Some reason as a sith inq i gain massive lag when in the presence of a certain darth at level 40/41. ..

 

Main thing i hate is the smudgy armors apart from in convos.. And the bug with the sith corruption PLEASE FIX THIS!!! It is so annoying turning it off before every convo because i look like some banana that is rotting..

Edited December 28, 2011 by Chaoswithin

[Nafre]

Had to post again to put a rating up. This won't be changed it is an issue far too deep within the games mechanics. I just like this thread because it lets bioware, and every mmo that has come out since WoW know why they have failed to hold our attention.

 

To those of you who keep saying we need to "go back to wow" or we're not objective because we love WoW so much.... consider this: I no longer play WoW and will never go back. What have I possibly got to gain from refusing to play this game and talking down this game? Do you have any idea how bad I wanted this game to be good? I preordered this game months ago and since then did nothing but sit on these forums and lurk. I read every single post, I watched every leaked video, I even made my computers wallpaper SWTOR.

 

I PRAY EVERY DAY FOR THE LOVE OF GOD THAT A NEW MMO COMES OUT THAT IS BETTER THAN WOW. Instead I'm forced to deal with 2-3 months of playing a game like this where developers put all their resources in the wrong places and I can't continue to play it because the basic concepts are fundamentally flawed.

 

Before I leave I do want to pose a question to you all though that I thought about today. Is it possible that MMOs have evolved so far that its impossible to make another good one? Let me explain that statement.

 

When WoW came out it was just as responsive and slick UI and combat wise as it is today. However WoW had almost zero features and content. The game was an absolute mess. There was nearly nothing to do at the level cap at all, there were no battlegrounds, there was no LFG system or queue, the talents in game were rough and terrible, the maps weren't detailed or ingame, the chat and channels barely worked, there was no Quest Helper or marked quest objectives, I could go on but you get the idea...it was basically just the framework of a great game. WoW over a long period of time added all the features that are now common in any new MMOs today.

 

Now flash forward to current day. If any new MMO is released it now *HAS* to have a LFG system, a detailed map system, a quest tracking system, working and detailed chats, Battlegrounds, balanced talents and classes, decent endgame content, etc. If it doesn't have all or 3/4 of this list nobody would bother playing it. Developers are now forced to spread their resources across an insanely large distance. What WoW developed over a looooong period of time, they now have to have on release... AND they have to make combat and UI responsive. When WoW focused on aesthetics and smooth gameplay for their release because none of these now common features existed, games like SWTOR have to build all these years of work overnight.

 

As I said, MMOs have evolved to the point they require so much work they are destroying themselves.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Nafre

[ldcardenas]

Don't get me wrong, as do I. In fact, hope, passion for this game and belief in Bioware as a company is the reason I have created this thread and even tried contacting them personally to discuss/open dialogue... help... anything.

 

I do believe SW:TOR has the real potential of being "the next big thing" in the MMO industry but at the same time "I know" that this will not happen and in fact will turn out to fall flat on its face and become a failure in the MMO industry if this, "THIS" very particular issue is not ironed out.

 

 

 

I only regret not having been in the BETA, perhaps I could've voiced it months and months ago...

 

I too feel the exact same way, and after finally getting very in-tune with an MMO, and I'm enjoying it more than any other MMO I've played.

 

That being said, I took my time reading what you had to say in the OP. I for one, never could put my finger on why some other MMOs did the exact same thing in relation to the 'responsiveness.'

 

It wasn't until I read your post that I was realizing what was going on, I too felt that delay between casting and it was under my nose, the entire time, unable for me to pick up on it. Now please correct me if I have misinterpreted the OP, but it certainly seems to me, that I have experienced the 0.5 'lag' if you want to call it that- this entire time I've played MMOs. Note, that I never played WoW and I am unfamiliar with the '100% character animation responses', better yet, the smoothness of playing the game.

 

Long story short, I agree with the OP and you have my support. I'd like to get more involved in this sort of thing and see where BioWare goes with this, if they have even come close to this thread.

Edited December 28, 2011 by ldcardenas

[AlJohnson]

Don't get me wrong, as do I. In fact, hope, passion for this game and belief in Bioware as a company is the reason I have created this thread and even tried contacting them personally to discuss/open dialogue... help... anything.

 

I do believe SW:TOR has the real potential of being "the next big thing" in the MMO industry but at the same time "I know" that this will not happen and in fact will turn out to fall flat on its face and become a failure in the MMO industry if this, "THIS" very particular issue is not ironed out.

 

 

 

I only regret not having been in the BETA, perhaps I could've voiced it months and months ago...

 

 

Didn't someone say this was brought up in beta testing with no address to it? I swear I read that but then again this is over 180 pages, and it might have even been somewhere else I saw that.