3.2.1 Marauder/Sentinel Insight: Defensive Forms

[oofalong]

*snip*

Thanks again for the insight on the changes, even if I disagree with it I'm glad we at least know the reasoning behind the changes. That's a lot better than not knowing at all.

 

I agree them sharing insights is beneficial, and my hope would be that it leads to better outcomes. However, in this case it feels like BioWare has not properly understood the realities of the AC.

Edited May 6, 2015 by oofalong

[waterboytkd]

I agree them sharing insights is beneficial, and my hope would be that it leads to better outcomes. However, in this case it feels like BioWare has not properly understood the realities of the AC.

 

Agreed.

[Trogusaurus]

Seconded.

[KaellSolaris]

If at least the changes were made in a way to improve the situation, but it is not the case, it is getting worse !

 

The whole Utility system is in cause, because it has been botch since begun. The other classes has good utility, with real choose to make, Mara/Sent has no real chose, and buffing useless utilities won't make them more interesting, a bad utility stay bad, no matter how you buff it.

 

The actual utilities of the mara/sent just show that you did not have any inspiration to make real utility, and you can't balance something that is not working.

 

The whole utility of the mara/sent must be reworked from the base.

[Cuiwe]

Thanks for the insight. I understand what you are trying to do, but! Just admit that you failed with SeMa utilities and COMPLETELY rework them. I think you owe us that much.

 

Oh and for the love of everything holy, please stop making 2ndary resource generation more and more difficult for us. It is, literally, our lifeblood, just like TA is to OPs. First you moved Valour to lvl 51 for whatever reason. Then you want to remove Defencive Forms, spread out its benefits and...give us another utility so we retain the 2ndary res.generation? I'm sorry, but why?

 

I think as do plenty of others who are WAY more respected than me(I'm just a guy with good ideas because of a good grip on reality) that the 2ndary resource generation should be made easier. Idk. Make Centering/Fury on hit an AC passive? Merge Brooding/Contemplation with lvl passive that gives Centering/Fury? Move Valour back to sub 20s?

 

Why, but why do you hate us BW?

[Bugattiboy]

Anyone ever wonder how much they must be getting paid to talk out their asses like this? Because I'm starting to. Edited May 6, 2015 by Bugattiboy

[The-Kaitou-Kid]

I agree them sharing insights is beneficial, and my hope would be that it leads to better outcomes. However, in this case it feels like BioWare has not properly understood the realities of the AC.

 

Agreed on all counts.

[Bugattiboy]

However, in this case it feels like BioWare has not properly understood the realities of the AC.

 

When have they ever done that? No, go ahead, I'll wait.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Bugattiboy

[Emoknights]

Hello John, and fellow players (especially fellow Sents/Maras),

 

First, I want to thank John for trying to be as active as possible in the forums, and keep the community up-to-date on the changes being proposed by BioWare (kudos). But...

 

I was extremely excited for this game when it was first launched, and stayed with it for quite a well. Fell out because of real life (what's that?) and other games that took up my time. In short, subbing to this game simply wasn't worth my time (at that time). However, since re-subbing, I have to say I'm disappointed with the Sent/Mara discipline. This particular discipline is about 50% of the reason I wanted to play this game. And at launch (and several patches afterwards), Sents/Maras were in a pretty good place. They were competitive in both PvP and PvE, and they were fun to play.

 

Since re-subbing, I have barely touched my Marauder or Sentinel. Now, I'm not a very active poster in the forums (or active member in the community). I'm just a casual player. But I can tell you, from a casual player's perspective, this discipline is just downright awful.

 

If utilities are just that, then they are CHOICES. Right now, it is true that some classes feel like they have locked in choices for their respective discipline (I can't think of any examples off the top my head, but I am sure anyone could make an argument for required utilities for some disciplines). But I feel as though Sents/Maras are the one discipline that has the worst of utilities. Some utilities that are baseline for other classes are simply not there for Sents/Maras.

 

The biggest oxymoron of them all, I feel, is the Single Saber Mastery given to Guardians/Juggs.

Please explain: Why do Juggernauts have their Single Saber Mastery baseline, while we have to spent a utility point on absolute must-haves?

Why should they receive something so useful (which used to be a talent in the skill trees, mind you) and Sents/Maras do not (Defensive Forms was also in the skill tree). It simply does not make sense.

 

I unfortunately haven't been around long enough, or play my Sent/Mara often enough to know the exact level of pain they experience in PvP/PvE (although from the regular outcries made by the community, I'd say the level of pain is quite high). But, I do know and recognize when a discipline has problems, and without a doubt Sents/Maras are a discipline with a lot of problems.

 

I know it's a lot of work, tinkering and fixing things when they're broken (especially when those things are programs), but please understand that this discipline needs some TLC (tender love & care).

Edited May 6, 2015 by Emoknights

[Atlanis]

Here is a suggestion for you John, ask the 12 most engaged Sentinels in these forums to contribute 12 items they feel required to make the AC viable again for the next PTS Patch and implement them with no tweaks. If they are proven to strong then remove them.

[Raansu]

 

We understand that many of you have been calling for Defensive Forms to be made baseline, but we need to maintain choice within the Utility system. The three previously Form-restricted effects tied to the original Defensive Forms (damage reduction, internal and elemental damage reduction, and movement speed) are all great defensive and utility skills that should be player driven options in the Utility system. While the Fury/Centering generation applied by Defensive Forms (and the new Brazen/Stoic) improves the DPS and defensive output of Marauders/Sentinels who are being actively attacked, it does nothing for those who are avoiding damage or attention and allowing their team/companions to draw the target’s ire. Due to this fact, we are leaving this Fury/Centering generation skill as a player choice and not moving it to a class-baseline passive.

 

This is BS and you know it. Do I need to point out how every other class has strong passives that they don't need to waste utility points on? Surely you know your own game and classes right? Why are you making sentinel the exception here? Why are you forcing this class to rely so much on utilities just to BARELY function? I feel like you don't even understand the baseline of how the class functions.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Raansu

[giorgo]

We know that this has been a sensitive topic for some time and found it pertinent to reassess the Utility and expand its functionality. By dividing the original buffs among multiple Utilities and removing the stance requirement, we aim to bolster the intrigue of other Utilities and provide the opportunity for all Disciplines and stances to utilize these defensive and utility buffs as they see fit.

 

We understand that many of you have been calling for Defensive Forms to be made baseline, but we need to maintain choice within the Utility system. The three previously Form-restricted effects tied to the original Defensive Forms (damage reduction, internal and elemental damage reduction, and movement speed) are all great defensive and utility skills that should be player driven options in the Utility system. While the Fury/Centering generation applied by Defensive Forms (and the new Brazen/Stoic) improves the DPS and defensive output of Marauders/Sentinels who are being actively attacked, it does nothing for those who are avoiding damage or attention and allowing their team/companions to draw the target’s ire. Due to this fact, we are leaving this Fury/Centering generation skill as a player choice and not moving it to a class-baseline passive.

 

Why dont you suck it up,make defensive forms passive and let me keep my 15% speed bonus as a combat sentinel?

P.S : Can i has your stuff?

P.S 2 : I m sorry i didnt mean that,i m just fed up with your incompetence.

P.S 3 : Srsly can i has it?

[Dyvim]

Hey everyone,

 

...

 

We understand that many of you have been calling for Defensive Forms to be made baseline, but we need to maintain choice within the Utility system....

 

Cheers, all!

John

 

How on earth are you "maintaining choice" when it is a utility everyone feels forced to take, and should clearly be baseline, that is the whole point. How could you miss something so simple?

 

You claim to understand, but your post is non-sense, and makes it obvious you understand very little...I would love to be proven wrong for the sake of the game. But that ship sailed a long time ago.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Dyvim

[KaellSolaris]

 

Defensive Forms:

 

We know that this has been a sensitive topic for some time and found it pertinent to reassess the Utility and expand its functionality. By dividing the original buffs among multiple Utilities and removing the stance requirement, we aim to bolster the intrigue of other Utilities and provide the opportunity for all Disciplines and stances to utilize these defensive and utility buffs as they see fit.

 

Sensitive topic, to say the least....

 

Well sorry it's a failure, you just nerf carnage mobility to the ground by the way, by putting the only mobility buff they have in their stance to a useless masterful utility, which still remain useless with it.

 

Congratulation

 

If only you put the 15 % bonus move speed in Brazen/Stoic (Instead of 2% reduction damage) in the skillful level instead of putting him in Phamtom/Force Fade in the masterful level, this may have been something constructive and it should have been well received (nothing change for Carnage/Combat, and mobility buff for the two other disciplines).

 

Because, you know, Assassin/Shadow, Operative/Scoundrel and Powertech/Vanguard all got their 15 % bonus move speed in a skillful utility, so why oh damn why DID YOU PUT IT IN A MASTERFULL UTILTIY FOR MARAUDER AND SENTINELS !!!!! ARE YOU MAD ??? ARE YOU UNABLE TO FOLLOW YOUR ONW LOGIC ????

 

We understand that many of you have been calling for Defensive Forms to be made baseline, but we need to maintain choice within the Utility system. The three previously Form-restricted effects tied to the original Defensive Forms (damage reduction, internal and elemental damage reduction, and movement speed) are all great defensive and utility skills that should be player driven options in the Utility system. While the Fury/Centering generation applied by Defensive Forms (and the new Brazen/Stoic) improves the DPS and defensive output of Marauders/Sentinels who are being actively attacked, it does nothing for those who are avoiding damage or attention and allowing their team/companions to draw the target’s ire. Due to this fact, we are leaving this Fury/Centering generation skill as a player choice and not moving it to a class-baseline passive.

 

If only you did it well, you wouldn't have been forced to give all theses explanations !

 

Brazen/Stoic will be taken by everyone, because the 2 extra Fury/Centering are NECESSARY for every mara/sent (Berzerk/Zen system, remember ? that's a part of our dps), your explanation is lacking the reality of what happens on live servers.

 

Plus, by the way, you spoke about the options in the Utility system. So i will tell you the truth about the Mara/sent utility :

 

They are the most poorly design utility in the whole game.

 

Other classes have real choose to make to get advantages on some situations, for mara/sent, we have NO CHOISE !

 

You don't created new "game changing" utility like they are on other classes, most of them are" default" choose because you can't do a thing without them.

 

Utility system for Mara/Sent is a failure since 3.0, they HAVE TO BE REWORK !

Edited May 7, 2015 by KaellSolaris

[Kakisback]

So their reasoning for why Defensive Forms can't be baseline is that it does nothing to help players not being attacked, therefore it's optional. Like, I have no words. How do they not get it? Oh right, how can they when they don't play their own game. Edited May 7, 2015 by Kakisback

[Raansu]

So their reasoning for why Defensive Forms can't be baseline is that is does nothing to help players not being attacked, therefore it's optional. Like, I have no words. How do they not get it? Oh right, how can they when they don't play their own game.

 

Amazing isn't it? A utility that is practically mandatory they claim is actually optional.....sure if you want to be inefficient. I love this game and what the original team did.....I hate the current developers.

[akatokuro]

I'm trying to see this from their side of things, and by the philosophy they're telling us is motivating the change. I can see where they are intending to go with this but as many others have stated this is frankly a nerf rather than a reallocation on other utilities.

 

I feel Utilities have gone from their intended purpose of adding "flavor" to a particular spec in the advance class and is basically a dumb down version of the skill tree that had required specs.

 

As a slightly off topic aside, I'm a long-time Fury(formerly Rage) Marauder, so I don't have a horse in the Anni/Watchman changes but they do seem awful, especially since the design them has told us they're we're we want them to be PVP wise. (Not much has changed on the Fury front except for a slight nerf in 3.2, we're already underperforming according to the official posts, but that's whatever) If they're really intending to bring us in line with other classes, why are all the changes seemingly negative? Is there one guy throwing off their curve in internal testing? I'd like a little insight on that frankly.

[KnightTyler]

Hey everyone,

 

We’ve been following the discussions regarding the Annihilation/Watchman changes since the last PTS patch, and I wanted to take a moment to lend some insight on a few points and discuss potential improvements. We will start by discussing the 3.2.1 changes to Defensive Forms.

 

Defensive Forms:

 

We know that this has been a sensitive topic for some time and found it pertinent to reassess the Utility and expand its functionality. By dividing the original buffs among multiple Utilities and removing the stance requirement, we aim to bolster the intrigue of other Utilities and provide the opportunity for all Disciplines and stances to utilize these defensive and utility buffs as they see fit.

 

We understand that many of you have been calling for Defensive Forms to be made baseline, but we need to maintain choice within the Utility system. The three previously Form-restricted effects tied to the original Defensive Forms (damage reduction, internal and elemental damage reduction, and movement speed) are all great defensive and utility skills that should be player driven options in the Utility system. While the Fury/Centering generation applied by Defensive Forms (and the new Brazen/Stoic) improves the DPS and defensive output of Marauders/Sentinels who are being actively attacked, it does nothing for those who are avoiding damage or attention and allowing their team/companions to draw the target’s ire. Due to this fact, we are leaving this Fury/Centering generation skill as a player choice and not moving it to a class-baseline passive.

 

We will be releasing threads concerning Marauder/Sentinel updates over the next few hours in stages. They will offer insight on Annihilation/Watch Rotation changes, Hungering/Merciless Zeal changes, and an open address on improving set bonuses to reduce their impact on limiting rotation flexibility. We are staggering the release of these posts to allow you all time to respond on individual topics and keep the discussions focused.

 

Cheers, all!

John

 

Hey there John.

 

I was impressed when you first began to go into detail about changes and the reasoning said changes were being looked at, etc... but now I feel as if there has been a decline in feedback. One of the most important things I learned this semester was in a Creative Marketing class which dealt with the handling of customers and building relationships. Long story short, the key to selling your product is to first build a relationship with the consumer, and in return that relationship will sell your product for you. Your consistency to maintain those relationships will increase popularity and reputation, which in turn will bring in more relationships through word of mouth.

 

With that said, I feel as if we need to see a change in Bioware Austin as a whole and the way things are handled. I do not know all the details involved with the size of the team, what people are working on, budget, etc... but I believe each class needs a dedicated Bioware Community Representative so that each and every classes voice can be echoed throughout the development process. Its an idea similar to what was done with the Player Representatives a while back but instead of having a player be the representative, we have a Bioware employee assume the role because they would be able to make a much bigger difference than a player would ever be capable of.

 

 

• For instance John, lets just say you love to play Sentinels. You would take on the role of managing the Sentinel/Marauder community and all the responsibility involved with getting Sentinel/Marauder voices heard to the Combat team. Say Tait loves to play Scoundrel. He assumes the role of Scoundrel/Operative Community Manager, in addition to his current role at the company. The list goes on and on to include each class but hopefully I have painted the picture clear enough.

 

I believe this will lead to better and more consistent updates throughout patches and it will allow Bioware to more actively engage with the community in a two-way process. The community manager of each class needs to be someone who is seasoned with that class, and is passionate about the overall progress of their main class as the game continues on. That's just my 2 cents, but take from it what you will.

 

Now in regards to Defensive Forms, I have to say that I do not like the way the DIscipline system is extracting all flavor from each individual spec and making it a Utility point. I feel as if each and every spec in the game is having their flavor and uniqueness removed in the process of making things more streamlined. There is nothing wrong with streamlining things a bit, but I am worried about the identity of every Discipline being destroyed. Take a look at Sentinel's Combat discipline Ataru Form for instance. Ataru Form in the lore is supposed to be fast, aggressive, and graceful.

 

"An aggressive style, Form IV was fast-paced and effective against single opponents, though weaker in prolonged combat and confined spaces. Also, it was not recommended for use against opponents wielding blasters. Ataru was characterized by Force-assisted acrobatics, such as somersaults and leaping strikes, both for attack and defense. Another characteristic of the form was its fast, powerful strikes from multiple directions."

 

The change to Defensive Form's now makes it so the 15% movement speed is just going to be thrown out for all disciplines to take, and Ataru is just as "speedy" as the rest when it is supposed to be the fastest. This broken case of identity is not exclusive to Sentinel's either. Nearly every Discipline has lost their flavor and the only thing that makes them different is their rotation/priorities. Look at Defense Guardian's for example: used to have Guardianship, spammable free Freezing Force, Battlefield Command, 5 second Saber Reflect for tanks only, and more but now its all available to every Guardian. The only thing that makes these classes unique now is their abilities and rotation, and I personally feel like that is the improper way to go.

 

Don't get me wrong, sometimes certain things are needed for ALL specs to improve quality of life for those disciplines such as the case with Unremitting being given to all Guardian's, BUT a point should be made to include or add on unique traits/flavor to the disciplines that get their flavor removed. Unremitting should be a passive for the ENTIRE KNIGHT class in my personal opinion, simply because it improves the quality of life of all Knight's, and it fits into the "theme" of a Jedi Knight. Like I said, its not just any one spec/discipline that was affected by this... many disciplines no longer have any flavor left to them and it just makes the game feel less, for lack of a better term, bad@ss.

 

I am curious John, when deciding what to add to a class/discipline, what stance do you and the Combat Team take? Do you look at the theme of the class or the lore involved with that discipline? Do you have a guideline you follow for what can/cannot be added? I would be interested in hearing the design process behind implementing changes to classes if you would be open to speaking about it. I highly recommend that you share the philosophy behind ALL of the changes as you guys are working on a discipline. If we knew exactly where you and the combat team's thought process was when designing the classes, we as a community could offer much more productive and accurate feedback. I ask only that you consider this, and do not overanalyze thoughts of "repercussions" of how some in the community may not like this or that. Just be transparent and tell us what is going on.

 

 

Suggestions:

 

Remove Ardor/Relentless Utility and make Transcendence/Predation a baseline 25s cooldown that does not require Centering/Fury.

 

Remove Defensive Form's as a utility and make Defensive Form's a baseline Sentinel/Marauder passive.

 

Make Guarded by the Force/Undying Rage have a base cooldown of 2 minutes. With the Enduring/Undying talent, Sentinel/Marauder's could bring this down to 1 minute 30 seconds which is a reasonable cooldown considering the effects and cooldowns of similar talents (i.e. Resilience/Force Shroud, Saber Reflect, etc...)

 

The Centering/Fury resource granted for just becoming a Sentinel/Marauder now has the "centering/fury building" effect of Contemplation/Brooding tacked on to it.

 

Sentinel

Skillful

 

• Jedi Enforcer - Increases the damage dealt by Rebuke by 15% and increases its duration by 4 seconds.
  
• Debilitation - Master Strike immobilizes the target for the duration of the ability.
  
• Jedi Crusader - While Rebuke is active, it generates 1 focus whenever you are attacked. This effect can not occur more than once every 2 seconds.
  
• Adamant - You generate 4 focus when stunned, immobilized, put to sleep, or knocked around. Additionally, the cooldown of Resolute is reduced by 30 seconds.
  
• Valorous Command - getting attacked reduces the cooldown of Valorous Call by (X) seconds. This effect can not occur more than once every (X) seconds.
  
• TrailBlazer - Cyclone Slash deals 25% more damage
  
• Incisor - Force Leap, Force Melt, Clashing Blast, and Zealous Leap snare the target, reducing its movement speed by 50% for 6 seconds.

 

Masterful

 

• Reining Reach - increases the range of Leg slash to 10m and causes Leg Slash to immobilize the target for 3 seconds. Additionally, Leg Slash now consumes 2 less focus.
  
• Force Sprint - reduces the cooldown of Transcendence by 5 seconds and grants immunity to movement impairing effects for 3 seconds when Transcendence is activated.
  
• Defensive Roll - Reduces damage taken from Area of Effects by 30%.
  
• Watchguard - Reduces the cooldown of Pacify by 15 seconds and Force Kick by 2 seconds. Addtionally causes Pacify to affect all enemies within 5m of the target.
  
• Pulse - Reduces the cooldown of Force Stasis and Awe by 15 seconds.
  
• Displacement - Increases the range of Pacify by 6 meters and allows Rebuke to be used while stunned.
  
• Jedi Sentry - While Force Camouflage is active, every second you remain camouflaged you gain a 5% damage bonus to your next attack that consumes focus. This effect can stack up to 6 times and lasts 10 seconds.

 

Heroic

 

• Fleetfooted - When Transcendence is applied or refreshed, it purges movement impairing effects. Additionally, the movement speed bonus of Transcendence is increased by 30%.
  
• Expunging Camouflage - increases the duration of Force Camouflage by 2 seconds and removes all cleansable effects when Force Camo is activated. Additionally increases the movement speed bonus of Force Camouflage by 20%.
  
• Jedi Promulgator - Each use of Strike, Zealous Strike, Leg Slash, Overload Saber, Clashing Blast, and Zealous Leap reduces the active cooldown of Rebuke by 3 seconds.
  
• Force Saber Throw - Twin Saber Throw knocks the primary target back several meters and immediately finishes the cooldown of Force Leap.
  
• Enduring - Reduces the cooldown of Guarded by the force by 30 seconds and increases the duration of Guarded by the Force by 2 seconds.
  
• Zealous Ward - Getting attacked while Saber Ward is active heals you for 3% of your maximum health. This effect can not occur more than once per second.
  
• Force Fade - Valorous Call immediately finishes the active cooldown of Force Camouflage.

 

Marauder

 

Skillful

 

• Cloak of Carnage - Increases the damage dealt by Cloak of Pain by 15% and increases its duration by 4 seconds.
  
• Overwhelm - Ravage immobilizes the target for the duration of the ability.
  
• Cloak of Rage - While Cloak of Pain is active, it generates 1 focus whenever you are attacked. This effect can not occur more than once every 2 seconds.
  
• Inexorable - You generate 4 focus when stunned, immobilized, put to sleep, or knocked around. Additionally, the cooldown of Unleash is reduced by 30 seconds.
  
• Agitated Frenzy - getting attacked reduces the cooldown of Frenzy by (X) seconds. This effect can not occur more than once every (X) seconds.
  
• Path Carver - Sweeping Slash deals 25% more damage
  
• Interceptor - Force Charge, Force Rend, Devastating Blast, and Obliterate snare the target, reducing its movement speed by 50% for 6 seconds.

 

Masterful

 

• Maiming Reach - increases the range of Crippling slash to 10m and causes Crippling Slash to immobilize the target for 3 seconds. Additionally, Crippling Slash now consumes 2 less focus.
  
• Maddening Charge - reduces the cooldown of Predation by 5 seconds and grants immunity to movement impairing effects for 3 seconds when Predation is activated.
  
• Defensive Roll - Reduces damage taken from Area of Effects by 30%.
  
• Subjugation - Reduces the cooldown of Obfuscate by 15 seconds and Disruption by 2 seconds. Additionally causes Obfuscate to affect all enemies within 5m of the target.
  
• Strangulate - Reduces the cooldown of Force Choke and Intimidating Roar by 15 seconds.
  
• Displacement - Increases the range of Obfuscate by 6 meters and allows Cloak of Pain to be used while stunned.
  
• Sith Stalker - While Force Camouflage is active, every second you remain camouflaged you gain a 5% damage bonus to your next attack that consumes focus. This effect can stack up to 6 times and lasts 10 seconds.

 

Heroic

 

• Unbound - When Predation is applied or refreshed, it purges movement impairing effects. Additionally, the movement speed bonus of Predation is increased by 30%.
  
• Expunging Camouflage - increases the duration of Force Camouflage by 2 seconds and removes all cleansable effects when Force Camouflage is activated. Additionally increases the movement speed bonus of Force Camouflage by 20%.
  
• Cloak of Annihilation - Each use of Strike, Zealous Strike, Leg Slash, Overload Saber, Clashing Blast, and Zealous Leap reduces the active cooldown of Rebuke by 3 seconds.
  
• Furious Saber Throw - Dual Saber Throw knocks the primary target back several meters and immediately finishes the cooldown of Force Charge.
  
• Undying - Reduces the cooldown of Undying Rage by 30 seconds and increases the duration of Undying Rage by 2 seconds.
  
• Blood Ward - Getting attacked while Saber Ward is active heals you for 3% of your maximum health. This effect can not occur more than once per second.
  
• Phantom - Frenzy immediately finishes the active cooldown of Force Camouflage.

 

 

With the changes I propose above, I have done exactly the same thing that you have said you wanted which is to maintain choice with the utility system. You want to play your Sentinel on the front lines jumping head first into conflict? Pick up things like Enduring, Defensive Roll, Jedi Promulgator, etc... Oh, you want to play your Sentinel a little bit more stealthy lurking in the shadows ready to strike at the most opportune moment? Pick up Jedi Sentry, Force Fade, etc... You like to have more options to protect your team and control the enemy? Pick up Force Saber Throw, Pulse, Watchguard, etc...

 

I hope that you take the time to read all of our feedback and consider the current state of classes and the overall state of the game.

Edited May 7, 2015 by KnightTyler

[araunz]

John,

 

Yes like john as said Please tell us before you do any more changes on any class If you don't you could be losing members and for one i be one of them thing before you do it :rak_02:

[Atlanis]

Hey there John.

 

I was impressed when you first began to go into detail about changes and the reasoning said changes were being looked at, etc... but now I feel as if there has been a decline in feedback. One of the most important things I learned this semester was in a Creative Marketing class which dealt with the handling of customers and building relationships. Long story short, the key to selling your product is to first build a relationship with the consumer, and in return that relationship will sell your product for you. Your consistency to maintain those relationships will increase popularity and reputation, which in turn will bring in more relationships through word of mouth.

 

With that said, I feel as if we need to see a change in Bioware Austin as a whole and the way things are handled. I do not know all the details involved with the size of the team, what people are working on, budget, etc... but I believe each class needs a dedicated Bioware Community Representative so that each and every classes voice can be echoed throughout the development process. Its an idea similar to what was done with the Player Representatives a while back but instead of having a player be the representative, we have a Bioware employee assume the role because they would be able to make a much bigger difference than a player would ever be capable of.

 

 

• For instance John, lets just say you love to play Sentinels. You would take on the role of managing the Sentinel/Marauder community and all the responsibility involved with getting Sentinel/Marauder voices heard to the Combat team. Say Tait loves to play Scoundrel. He assumes the role of Scoundrel/Operative Community Manager, in addition to his current role at the company. The list goes on and on to include each class but hopefully I have painted the picture clear enough.

 

I believe this will lead to better and more consistent updates throughout patches and it will allow Bioware to more actively engage with the community in a two-way process. The community manager of each class needs to be someone who is seasoned with that class, and is passionate about the overall progress of their main class as the game continues on. That's just my 2 cents, but take from it what you will.

 

Now in regards to Defensive Forms, I have to say that I do not like the way the DIscipline system is extracting all flavor from each individual spec and making it a Utility point. I feel as if each and every spec in the game is having their flavor and uniqueness removed in the process of making things more streamlined. There is nothing wrong with streamlining things a bit, but I am worried about the identity of every Discipline being destroyed. Take a look at Sentinel's Combat discipline Ataru Form for instance. Ataru Form in the lore is supposed to be fast, aggressive, and graceful.

 

"An aggressive style, Form IV was fast-paced and effective against single opponents, though weaker in prolonged combat and confined spaces. Also, it was not recommended for use against opponents wielding blasters. Ataru was characterized by Force-assisted acrobatics, such as somersaults and leaping strikes, both for attack and defense. Another characteristic of the form was its fast, powerful strikes from multiple directions."

 

The change to Defensive Form's now makes it so the 15% movement speed is just going to be thrown out for all disciplines to take, and Ataru is just as "speedy" as the rest when it is supposed to be the fastest. This broken case of identity is not exclusive to Sentinel's either. Nearly every Discipline has lost their flavor and the only thing that makes them different is their rotation/priorities. Look at Defense Guardian's for example: used to have Guardianship, spammable free Freezing Force, Battlefield Command, 5 second Saber Reflect for tanks only, and more but now its all available to every Guardian. The only thing that makes these classes unique now is their abilities and rotation, and I personally feel like that is the improper way to go.

 

Don't get me wrong, sometimes certain things are needed for ALL specs to improve quality of life for those disciplines such as the case with Unremitting being given to all Guardian's, BUT a point should be made to include or add on unique traits/flavor to the disciplines that get their flavor removed. Unremitting should be a passive for the ENTIRE KNIGHT class in my personal opinion, simply because it improves the quality of life of all Knight's, and it fits into the "theme" of a Jedi Knight. Like I said, its not just any one spec/discipline that was affected by this... many disciplines no longer have and flavor left to them and it just makes the game feel less, for lack of a better term, bad@ss.

 

I am curious John, when deciding what to add to a class/discipline, what stance do you and the Combat Team take? Do you look at the theme of the class or the lore involved with that discipline? Do you have a guideline you follow for what can/cannot be added? I would be interested in hearing the design process behind implementing changes to classes if you would be open to speaking about it. I highly recommend that you share the philosophy behind ALL of the changes as you guys are working on a discipline. If we knew exactly where you and the combat team's thought process was when designing the classes, we as a community could offer much more productive and accurate feedback. I ask only that you consider this, and do not overanalyze thoughts of "repercussions" of how some in the community may not like this or that. Just be transparent and tell us what is going on.

 

 

Suggestions:

 

Remove Ardor/Relentless Utility and make Transcendence/Predation a baseline 25s cooldown that does not require Centering/Fury.

 

Remove Defensive Form's as a utility and make Defensive Form's a baseline Sentinel/Marauder passive.

 

Make Guarded by the Force/Undying Rage have a base cooldown of 2 minutes. With the Enduring/Undying talent, Sentinel/Marauder's could bring this down to 1 minute 30 seconds which is a reasonable cooldown considering the effects and cooldowns of similar talents (i.e. Resilience/Force Shroud, Saber Reflect, etc...)

 

Sentinel

Skillful

 

• Jedi Enforcer - Increases the damage dealt by Rebuke by 15% and increases its duration by 4 seconds.
  
• Debilitation - Master Strike immobilizes the target for the duration of the ability.
  
• Jedi Crusader - While Rebuke is active, it generates 1 focus whenever you are attacked. This effect can not occur more than once every 2 seconds.
  
• Adamant - You generate 4 focus when stunned, immobilized, put to sleep, or knocked around. Additionally, the cooldown of Resolute is reduced by 30 seconds.
  
• Valorous Command - getting attacked reduces the cooldown of Valorous Call by (X) seconds. This effect can not occur more than once every (X) seconds.
  
• TrailBlazer - Cyclone Slash deals 25% more damage
  
• Incisor - Force Leap, Force Melt, Clashing Blast, and Zealous Leap snare the target, reducing its movement speed by 50% for 6 seconds.

 

Masterful

 

• Reining Reach - increases the range of Leg slash to 10m and causes Leg Slash to immobilize the target for 3 seconds. Additionally, Leg Slash now consumes 2 less focus.
  
• Force Sprint - reduces the cooldown of Transcendence by 5 seconds and grants immunity to movement impairing effects for 3 seconds when Transcendence is activated.
  
• Defensive Roll - Reduces damage taken from Area of Effects by 30%.
  
• Watchguard - Reduces the cooldown of Pacify by 15 seconds and Force Kick by 2 seconds. Addtionally causes Pacify to affect all enemies within 5m of the target.
  
• Pulse - Reduces the cooldown of Force Stasis and Awe by 15 seconds.
  
• Displacement - Increases the range of Pacify by 6 meters and allows Rebuke to be used while stunned.
  
• Jedi Sentry - While Force Camouflage is active, every second you remain camouflaged you gain a 5% damage bonus to your next attack that consumes focus. This effect can stack up to 6 times and lasts 10 seconds.

 

Heroic

 

• Fleetfooted - When Transcendence is applied or refreshed, it purges movement impairing effects. Additionally, the movement speed bonus of Transcendence is increased by 30%.
  
• Expunging Camouflage - increases the duration of Force Camouflage by 2 seconds and removes all cleansable effects when Force Camo is activated. Additionally increases the movement speed bonus of Force Camouflage by 20%.
  
• Jedi Promulgator - Each use of Strike, Zealous Strike, Leg Slash, Overload Saber, Clashing Blast, and Zealous Leap reduces the active cooldown of Rebuke by 3 seconds.
  
• Force Saber Throw - Twin Saber Throw knocks the primary target back several meters and immediately finishes the cooldown of Force Leap.
  
• Enduring - Reduces the cooldown of Guarded by the force by 30 seconds and increases the duration of Guarded by the Force by 2 seconds.
  
• Zealous Ward - Getting attacked while Saber Ward is active heals you for 3% of your maximum health. This effect can not occur more than once per second.
  
• Force Fade - Valorous Call immediately finishes the active cooldown of Force Camouflage.

 

Marauder

 

Skillful

 

• Cloak of Carnage - Increases the damage dealt by Cloak of Pain by 15% and increases its duration by 4 seconds.
  
• Overwhelm - Ravage immobilizes the target for the duration of the ability.
  
• Cloak of Rage - While Cloak of Pain is active, it generates 1 focus whenever you are attacked. This effect can not occur more than once every 2 seconds.
  
• Inexorable - You generate 4 focus when stunned, immobilized, put to sleep, or knocked around. Additionally, the cooldown of Unleash is reduced by 30 seconds.
  
• Agitated Frenzy - getting attacked reduces the cooldown of Frenzy by (X) seconds. This effect can not occur more than once every (X) seconds.
  
• Path Carver - Sweeping Slash deals 25% more damage
  
• Interceptor - Force Charge, Force Rend, Devastating Blast, and Obliterate snare the target, reducing its movement speed by 50% for 6 seconds.

 

Masterful

 

• Maiming Reach - increases the range of Crippling slash to 10m and causes Crippling Slash to immobilize the target for 3 seconds. Additionally, Crippling Slash now consumes 2 less focus.
  
• Maddening Charge - reduces the cooldown of Predation by 5 seconds and grants immunity to movement impairing effects for 3 seconds when Predation is activated.
  
• Defensive Roll - Reduces damage taken from Area of Effects by 30%.
  
• Subjugation - Reduces the cooldown of Obfuscate by 15 seconds and Disruption by 2 seconds. Additionally causes Obfuscate to affect all enemies within 5m of the target.
  
• Strangulate - Reduces the cooldown of Force Choke and Intimidating Roar by 15 seconds.
  
• Displacement - Increases the range of Obfuscate by 6 meters and allows Cloak of Pain to be used while stunned.
  
• Sith Stalker - While Force Camouflage is active, every second you remain camouflaged you gain a 5% damage bonus to your next attack that consumes focus. This effect can stack up to 6 times and lasts 10 seconds.

 

Heroic

 

• Unbound - When Predation is applied or refreshed, it purges movement impairing effects. Additionally, the movement speed bonus of Predation is increased by 30%.
  
• Expunging Camouflage - increases the duration of Force Camouflage by 2 seconds and removes all cleansable effects when Force Camouflage is activated. Additionally increases the movement speed bonus of Force Camouflage by 20%.
  
• Cloak of Annihilation - Each use of Strike, Zealous Strike, Leg Slash, Overload Saber, Clashing Blast, and Zealous Leap reduces the active cooldown of Rebuke by 3 seconds.
  
• Furious Saber Throw - Dual Saber Throw knocks the primary target back several meters and immediately finishes the cooldown of Force Charge.
  
• Undying - Reduces the cooldown of Undying Rage by 30 seconds and increases the duration of Undying Rage by 2 seconds.
  
• Blood Ward - Getting attacked while Saber Ward is active heals you for 3% of your maximum health. This effect can not occur more than once per second.
  
• Phantom - Frenzy immediately finishes the active cooldown of Force Camouflage.

 

 

With the changes I propose above, I have done exactly the same thing that you have said you wanted which is to maintain choice with the utility system. You want to play your Sentinel on the front lines jumping head first into conflict? Pick up things like Enduring, Defensive Roll, Jedi Promulgator, etc... Oh, you want to play your Sentinel a little bit more stealthy lurking in the shadows ready to strike at the most opportune moment? Pick up Jedi Sentry, Force Fade, etc... You like to have more options to protect your team and control the enemy? Pick up Force Saber Throw, Pulse, Watchguard, etc...

 

I hope that you take the time to read all of our feedback and consider the current state of classes and the overall state of the game.

 

I agree this everything in the utility compartment, implent it EXACTLY like he postet it for PTS and let us test it. Don´t forget to change Watchman exactly like the dozen most engaged and longtime Watchman Sent players demand for the next PTS. Your ideas are not worth of programming and putting them on the PTS John, they suck, everybody agrees on that!

[K_osss]

I believe I understand what you are trying to do here. Which is take what is essentially a required utility skill and break up its utility to strengthen other utility choices. Since the utility skills are supposed to provide choice to the player, having something that is required is wrong. In other words Defensive Forms was too strong.

 

First off, the much of the pushback you are getting on this change is due to the reality that nothing about Maras/Sents is too strong given the current meta.

 

Next, Fury | Centering is so closely tied to our ability to deal damage that having it as a utility seems wrong; it's essential. Said another way, we are a pure DPS class, and melee DPS at that. Thus, we have to be in melee range to deal damage, which means we are unable to avoid much AoE damage.

 

In effect, your change to Defensive Forums neutered a required utility that is still required. Thus, we are comparatively weaker now than previously.

 

This sums up my thoughts well. No need to say it again.

[Nomaad]

This will be my last post about anything mara/sent related, and I just wanted to show the dev team what I think about your fantastic never ending disasterous changes to the class.

[Kyuuu]

Seriously the whole marauder community it tell you this is bad idea and will make thing worse. As carnage I have never taking phantom so rolling that 15% movement speed into that screws me over. cause you not make any part of defensive forms passive and just replacing it with another utility ALL marauders STILL need and have no choice in taking excpet now i need to remove utility point form somthing in NEED to get back what already had. which was point of making it passive to free up a point for from utility this mandatory for marauders

 

We already shafted by 3.0 and utility tree seeing before we had expunging camouflage ( cleanse/rootbreak) 30% movment bonus to predation ADD brooding 30 fury building. Come 3.0 and utility we can no long keep all those CAUSE THERE ALL IN THE TOP TIER.

 

At this point I rather have defensive form STAY utility and you just make all effect apply able or you leave brazzen but put the 15% movement speed bonus in to defensive roll people that never took phantom cause THEY CANT arnt getting screwed over. and force to move utility points around get something back.

 

Ideally Defensive forms with ALL effect as passive available too ALL marauder and expunging camouflages cleanse/root break and or unbound 30% to predation SHOULD ALL BE passives for all. cause there all mandatory to keep mobility

 

All the Crippling slash utility merged. or passive. Which would never been issue if you left out deadly saber throw ( forgot what it was called but it had 10m range alone gave the rooting effect/trama to healing to all as baseline pasive.

 

But because you need 10 utility for each tier to keep line with other classes you took things away add things didnt need to be add like the 2 cripple slash utility most marauder were screwed in 3.0 and lost functionality they cant get back with sacrificing it for mandatory things.

 

And what PTS is proposing it gona make utility worse and more of mess.

 

keep your damn 10 utility per tier for all class but for the love of god make the mandatory thing marauder need passive and replace them with utility THAT ARE NOT MANDATORY FOR OUR MOBILITY

 

I will stop playing my marauder if the changes to defensive form go threw cause will be crippling me even more then i was crippled by 3.0

[TearingAero]

Hi John,

 

I want to address one of the assumptions you make in your argument.

 

 

While the Fury/Centering generation applied by Defensive Forms (and the new Brazen/Stoic) improves the DPS and defensive output of Marauders/Sentinels who are being actively attacked, it does nothing for those who are avoiding damage or attention and allowing their team/companions to draw the target’s ire. Due to this fact, we are leaving this Fury/Centering generation skill as a player choice and not moving it to a class-baseline passive.

 

 

With respect, I believe that the assumption that a marauder can avoid damage in endgame PvE (HM raids) and PvP (warzones/arenas) is false. All marauders specs in both endgame PvE and PvP heavily benefit in their damage output from generating Centering/Fury stacks upon being attacked. By generating more stacks of centering/fury, a marauder can activate berserk/zen more often and thus increase their DPS. For Annihilation marauders, this means more guaranteed dot crits (and heals the raid group!). For Carnage, more periods of alacrity boosted attack windows. For Fury, more rage/focus. In both PvE and PvP, there exists *unavoidable* damage. By not taking the defensive form utility, marauders are crippling their centering/fury generation. This makes the defensive form utility a requirement, not an option (unless you want to hinder your DPS/utility).

 

In PvP, players are actively targeting marauders so they will obviously take “unavoidable” damage. Therefore, taking the defensive forms utility is a straight-up damage increase. Furthermore, more Centering/Fury stacks mean that you can activate predation/transcendence more often, which is a significant increase to a marauder’s mobility.

 

In the current PvE raiding meta, there is unavoidable damage in almost all boss fights. This means that NOT taking the current defensive forms utility that grants more centering/fury upon being attacked is a direct DPS loss!!! This makes defensive forms a required utility for all marauders in endgame PvE in order to improve DPS. Here is a breakdown of the unavoidable damage in the current HM raid tier:

 

Ravagers

 

HM Sparky: If you are DPS’ing adds, they will turn and attack you (based on proximity, not threat!). When the boss rampages, he can randomly target and hit you.

 

HM Bulo: Unavoidable damage from fire barrels and load lifters (that randomly target members of the raid)

 

HM Torque: Practically unavoidable fire damage from the vents. A marauder can also take damage from shoots lasers (they target random group members unless taunted), and deterrent devices since they are generally in close proximity. When we bring a marauder, they generally have as much damage taken as the tanks! Since marauders take a lot of damage, they benefit greatly by taking defensive forms, which boosts their DPS accordingly.

 

HM Master/Blaster: Unavoidable damage from explosive probes. Unavoidable damage from Blaster’s Ravager Electro-Pulse Nova and Master’s Ion Pulse Wave (when used to get the root buff in phase 3).

 

HM Cora: Unavoidable damage from corrosive grenade (randomly targets raid members), any damage from pearl (when she becomes untauntable and starts harassing the raid), flame grenade ticks before you cleanse it and more in Ruugar phase (you get the point).

 

Temple of Sacrifice

 

HM malaphar: you can avoid most damage on this boss IF you are very careful with the stacks of savagery. However, it is a significant DPS boost to let your stacks go higher when your healers can handle it, and thus get more centering/fury stacks with the defensive forms utility.

 

HM sword squadron: Unavoidable damage from huge grenade (randomly targets group), rain of missiles, and gravity missile.

 

HM underlurker: Unavoidable damage from adds. Enough said!

 

HM commanders: Unavoidable damage from Deron’s tracer missile, guided missile volley and jet boost.

 

HM Revan: Plenty of unavoidable AoE damage from Heaves, Resonance, Essence Corruption...etc.

 

Overall, thank you John for deciding to open a dialogue about the defensive forms utility. I know that many in the community are passionate about playing marauders and feel left out/gimped in the current game meta that already discriminates against melee in PvE. I hope that my argument has at least made you reconsiders some of your reasoning behind keeping defensive forms a utility and not as a baseline. Please keep the dialogue open (despite how grumpy some of us are!)

Edited May 7, 2015 by TearingAero

[PallyHk]

Marauders need a buff. Ravage on the move and offhand weapon damage bonus is a necessary baseline for starters.