Bubble Stun

[Zoom_VI]

it matters to me bc lightning is stationary.

 

Lightning isn't stationary, in fact Lightning is arguably more mobile than some of the warrior specs.

[Floplag]

im pretty sure the most common answer here will be "light armor", which is a joke in and of itself but i digress.

Why do they get a root on their knockback? why are they the only dps class with an powerful emergency self heal? Why does any class need a 100% immunity skill period?

Id love any of those abilities personally

[foxmob]

Lightning isn't stationary, in fact Lightning is arguably more mobile than some of the warrior specs.

 

well...that's a conversation for another thread. lightning is supposed to be stationary, as is MM as is arsenel. that's why they have such great burst. IO, lethality, engineering, madness...those are all more mobile but lack the burst on demand. I know you know this. so I'm not trying to be pedantic. but if there's one thing seriously wrong with class balance, I would argue it's this stuff. deception has no business throwing a 30m instant mezz on a 15s cd. that's just crazy. but, as you say, lighting shouldn't have the kiting abilities that IO or madness do. they've stood a lot of basic tenets on their heads.

[Budderderrange]

The problem is that it's a AoE cc attached to a ability that a sorc will use on himself nearly constantly anyways. For melee classes it basically a case of either A) you let the sage freecast and you get wrecked or B) you try to stop the sage but get CC'ed everytime you close the gap.

 

Also Lightning shouldn't have it anymore than any other sage spec since all the sage specs have amazing kiting abilities to begin with. Seriously sages are already a hardcounter to the 4m classes, and bubblestun just makes it stupid, especially since that kind of CC is extremely frustrating to the melee since it's literally something that can't counter in any way.

 

2 words for you. Glass Cannon. After a few abilities (lightsaber throw, force choke, project, etc.) that have a 10+ meter ranged on a melee guy, the bubble simply breaks.

[Zoom_VI]

well...that's a conversation for another thread. lightning is supposed to be stationary, as is MM as is arsenel. that's why they have such great burst. IO, lethality, engineering, madness...those are all more mobile but lack the burst on demand. I know you know this. so I'm not trying to be pedantic. but if there's one thing seriously wrong with class balance, I would argue it's this stuff. deception has no business throwing a 30m instant mezz on a 15s cd. that's just crazy. but, as you say, lighting shouldn't have the kiting abilities that IO or madness do. they've stood a lot of basic tenets on their heads.

 

To be fair what is or is not ridiculous depends on the context of the class. Low Slash if applied to any other class would be insanely ridiculous. But deception doesn't have a single anti-kiting tool outside of force speed. Although I can see how it can feel overbearing particularly since you play on Jung Ma where every match is at least 50% deception assassins minimum.

 

Similar logic can be applied to bubblestun although in reverse. In previous iterations of Lightning it was totally necessary (although even in those metas it was still bad game design.) since the spec had legitimate issues with melee, and needed the cc in order get casts off.

But now, it's totally superfluous.

[Savej]

All of the aoe ccs in this game move it from a potential blast to a bit of a joke to watch, imo. AOE kb + root every 20 secs, long aoe kb + possible root every 30, bubblestun, fear/awe, flashbang, aoe snare spammable, aoe stuns, cc grenades (no one cares about dps grenades), etc.. All of those things would be fine if they were on extremely long cds; people would have to think about using them. But they aren't - they are part of many people's rotations - most are practically spammable and they guarantee that if you're anywhere near melee range with 2+ opponents you're going to get hit with ccs every few seconds. Channeling anything in that situation is an exercise in futility unless you're whitebarred or have one of the gimmicks (vg immunity, move-while-channel, kb immunity, etc).

 

It's like BW made a checklist of all of the cheap and most controversial bs movies that were added to Wow over the years and poured them into their game with a dumptruck. It's no surprise, I guess, after WAR. But I really thought BW might have started to figure things out by now.

 

It's encouraging that resolve is gettting tweaked and more cc immunities are getting added to the game. But for a new player or a not very good/experienced one that doesn't know everything about what every AC can do? Very deterring. No one likes playing the ball in pinball games.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Savej

[JouerTue]

 

So that leaves.... maras/sents being shut down by bubble stun.

 

i'm fine enough with combat/carnage, there's a lot of 10m skills and if you see him apply his barrier you can figure out when the stun is coming

[Savej]

i'm fine enough with combat/carnage, there's a lot of 10m skills and if you see him apply his barrier you can figure out when the stun is coming

 

It's fine in 1v1. But swtor isn't 1v1. In group vs group fights a sorc can cast that bubble right after it pops in many cases and if you're in the blast radius (whether you're paying attention to the sorc or not) you can get hit with two low resolve game changers.

[alexsamma]

I didn't realize I needed to join a party to post. But then again I'm always terrible at keeping up with politics anyways.

 

Although according to some of the previous posters I'm apparently on "the Vanguard side" which interestingly enough has no stake in this topic since vanguards are typically unaffected by bubblestun.

 

 

Not really. Good PvP is based around the idea that a ability should be just as engaging for the user as it is for the person it's used upon. Bubble stun certainly isn't engaging for the Sage since most of the time the Sage doesn't even give it any thought. And I doubt all the people left couched over holding their eyes everytime they get near the sage are feeling engaged either.

 

I would lay off the mudslinging, your past comments have given me more than enough ammunition to easily win any mudslinging fights you try to start.

 

I am well aware that AP is in a better position in group ranked than Sage DPS is, but I'm also aware that 99% of the PvP in this game isn't group ranked.

 

Also outside of what you personally think of me, please tell me why having what amounts to a automatic AoE CC doesn't amount to bad game design. Bubble stun doesn't add any level of depth or engagement to the players but it is probably second to none in terms of utterly infuriating game mechanics.

 

Also that list of specs not effected. I will give you Veng, although the sage has plenty of other tools in that case. But Concealment, like really, Concealment is out of all of the melees, the most opener dependent one, and it can't open on a bubbled sage, because #automatically CC'ed. Concealment's methods of dealing with bubble stun are limited to autoattack, frag grenade, and overload shot. None of which deal enough damage to break the bubble with a single use, and by the time the two GCDs necessary to pop the bubble are up, the sage has already rooted the operative and zoomed off.

 

Deception is better off than concealment especially once Dark Stability is taken into account. Although the fight will certainly drag out much longer than Deflection, and besides Dark Stability is already devalued in that match-up since it doesn't provide protection against roots and snares, which are the centerpiece of the Sage's defensive toolkit.

 

I'm amused that you listed vanguards though, considering how in the past you have at informed me in great length about how vanguards aren't melee. But that is irrelevant anyways, since I specifically stated 4m classes in the OP. And Vanguards are not a 4m class.

 

You call it mudslinging, I call it sharing pertinent facts about the person who made the post that can help others understand your viewpoint on the game.

 

How many of these specs do you actually play Crinn? Every spec I listed are specs that I play and I'm sorry, but an ability being annoying to a spec doesn't "totally invalidate it." You (and a few others) keep referencing concealment/scrapper but that spec (given equal skill) should completely destroy a sorc; now if there are 3-4 sorcs stacked together in a reg match and the operative/scoundrel is getting hit with all of the bubble stuns... sure... that's horrible, but that's not the same argument.

 

Don't take my word for it, feel free to ask other good concealment/scrappers on your server (Juri comes to mind if he is still playing) and I think you'll find that they don't have issues dealing with sorcs.

Edited May 3, 2015 by alexsamma

[VixenRawR]

Man you really hate Sorcs and Sages.... It seems you are always bagging the class... Why don't you roll one and play it so you can see what the counters are to the issues you have against them... Of all the classes I play, they are the most hated for the wrong reasons... Any good player can counter nearly every QQ people have about them...

It seems unless you can global them without any risk to yourself they must be OP and Nerfed... Please stop QQing about them...

 

Just another ability to lock down a Marauder. Bubble stun should stun the person who pops it, and build have a bar of resolve. So tired of being back to back bubble stunned 4-5 times with no bar filled up cause every team has at least 4 sages bouncing around with it on. Also knockback root...you have a knockback...root shouldn't last any longer than 2 seconds if it's even going to have one. And I do have a sorc and a sage, its lmfao easy mode. No effort so many abilities to save me, run, break free stop from being attacked. You think its somehow skill cause you run all the time to avoid enemies...the thing is you just keep attacking the whole time. When an operative runs, they can no longer dps which offsets it as a pure defensive ability/escape. Sorc runs, they just escape and continue the same stream of dps all the while bubble stunning and knockback rooting everyone who steps close to them. When all else fails, barrier, heal to full and immune with bastion. But I guess sorcerers are supposed to survive entire teams trying to gank them, no longer free kills.

 

Dev: "We are now reducing the dmg of shock by .5% only for healers" you: "We are free kills, game is ruined"

[VixenRawR]

Grass is always greener.

 

Lol, marauders don't even have a lawn, it's hard to see grass when you are constantly 6 feet under.

[alexsamma]

It's fine in 1v1. But swtor isn't 1v1. In group vs group fights a sorc can cast that bubble right after it pops in many cases and if you're in the blast radius (whether you're paying attention to the sorc or not) you can get hit with two low resolve game changers.

 

Now this is a legitimate complaint against the skill, a good idea would be to provide a bebuff that prevents you from being bubble blinded again for X number of seconds by the same player (or the next buble mezz from any player builds 2x resolve , etc).

 

This change leaves the utility as being useful, but prevents it from being abused.

[zZeroAgent]

OK, why all the butthurt?

 

Are we on the side of the sage or the side of the 4m melee?

 

If on the melee - then use your attacks smarter. Pop the bubble with soemthing like TST or Frag Grenade.

 

If we're on the Sage's side....it helps you against stupid people, and is a good **** option. Problem solve.d

 

What a laughably terrible post

 

It consists of you saying "well don't be within 5m of a Sage at ANY moment or you're stupid"

 

Pop the bubble with something from range and then the other 4-5 people near the sage get stunned even tho they weren't even targetting him in the first place

 

It's an absolutely dumb mechanic and I'm surprised people are defending it, considering I play a Sorc often and have no doubt that it needs to go.

[Zoom_VI]

You call it mudslinging, I call it sharing pertinent facts about the person who made the post that can help others understand your viewpoint on the game.

Well then I suppose it's pertinent to mention that you have repeatedly stated that you believe that pre-nerf hatred was weaker in ranked than post SC nerf AP, and if my memory serves me right you extended that claim to state that Hatred isn't overpowered at all, and that VGs are the god class of group ranked.

 

How many of these specs do you actually play Crinn? Every spec I listed are specs that I play and I'm sorry, but an ability being annoying to a spec doesn't "totally invalidate it." You (and a few others) keep referencing concealment/scrapper but that spec (given equal skill) should completely destroy a sorc; now if there are 3-4 sorcs stacked together in a reg match and the operative/scoundrel is getting hit with all of the bubble stuns... sure... that's horrible, but that's not the same argument.

I already have a 60 Deception, I will have a 60 scrapper before the end of tomorrow. Interestingly enough many of my VG friends have since shifted to maining a scrapper post 3.0. Which shows how much current VG is a perverse joke of it's 2.10 state.

 

Don't take my word for it, feel free to ask other good concealment/scrappers on your server (Juri comes to mind if he is still playing) and I think you'll find that they don't have issues dealing with sorcs.

Yeah, I'll do that since half the people on my friends list main scrappers.

[MisterPepssi]

The problem is that it's a AoE cc attached to a ability that a sorc will use on himself nearly constantly anyways. For melee classes it basically a case of either A) you let the sage freecast and you get wrecked or B) you try to stop the sage but get CC'ed everytime you close the gap.

 

Also Lightning shouldn't have it anymore than any other sage spec since all the sage specs have amazing kiting abilities to begin with. Seriously sages are already a hardcounter to the 4m classes, and bubblestun just makes it stupid, especially since that kind of CC is extremely frustrating to the melee since it's literally something that can't counter in any way.

 

Sorcs is the squishiest class in the game. If you can't handle bubble stun, just /stuck.

[MisterPepssi]

To be fair what is or is not ridiculous depends on the context of the class. Low Slash if applied to any other class would be insanely ridiculous. But deception doesn't have a single anti-kiting tool outside of force speed. Although I can see how it can feel overbearing particularly since you play on Jung Ma where every match is at least 50% deception assassins minimum.

 

Similar logic can be applied to bubblestun although in reverse. In previous iterations of Lightning it was totally necessary (although even in those metas it was still bad game design.) since the spec had legitimate issues with melee, and needed the cc in order get casts off.

But now, it's totally superfluous.

 

Deception has plenty of anti kite abilities. Take it from someone who has mained an assassin since launch.

[Zoom_VI]

Deception has plenty of anti kite abilities. Take it from someone who has mained an assassin since launch.

 

>Says there are plenty of anit kite abilities

> fails to list even one of them

[Master-Nala]

im pretty sure the most common answer here will be "light armor", which is a joke in and of itself but i digress.

Why do they get a root on their knockback? why are they the only dps class with an powerful emergency self heal? Why does any class need a 100% immunity skill period?

Id love any of those abilities personally

 

So let's take all those things away. What do you propose Sorcerers should do when attacked?

[Master-Nala]

>Says there are plenty of anit kite abilities

> fails to list even one of them

 

Overload root, Force Slow, Low Slash, Force Speed, Whirlwind

 

Deception is nothing compared to PTs in this regard, but they have options. And weren't you the guy who said stealth was the best gap closer? (Seriously, I can't remember who said that)

[zZeroAgent]

Overload root, Force Slow, Low Slash, Force Speed, Whirlwind

 

Deception is nothing compared to PTs in this regard, but they have options. And weren't you the guy who said stealth was the best gap closer? (Seriously, I can't remember who said that)

 

Dark Stability too. Hard to kite what you can't CC.

 

Deception was fine. The problem still is certain classes having rotational slows.

[Zoom_VI]

Dark Stability too. Hard to kite what you can't CC.

Deception was fine. The problem still is certain classes having rotational slows.

Dark Stability is actually the least effective versus a sorc since nearly all of the sorc's kiting abilities are based on roots, slows, and the knockback. And Dark Stability does not give immunity towards those. Dark Stability is extremely effective versus the more Hard CC based classes.

 

Low Slash is a legitimate argument, but you actually go back and read the previous posts, the context was deception if it didn't have 30m low slash, since foxmob was talking about 30m low slash being ridiculous. 4m low slash was never great versus a sorc unless you had a really really strong server connection and could react fast enough to counter a force speed before the force speed took the sorc out of range. 4m low slash lost it's point after 3.0 got rid of low slash proc'ing duplicity off it's rate limit.

It makes good way to interrupt a interrupt immune player. But if any caster is sitting around at 4m range from anything and trying to cast....well

 

Whirlwind is not a anitkiting tool. Even with the utility to make it instant, it's too much resolve, and leaving the sorc sitting in whirlwind does nothing for the assassin at all, especially since the sorc will still be dealing some level of dot damage while in the whirlwind.

Now whirlwind has several other very useful applications, but as a anitkiting tool. Nope.

 

Force slow would be nice, if it wasn't for the fact that pretty much every other snare in the meta is stronger than it is.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Zoom_VI

[AlrikFassbauer]

The problem is that it's a AoE cc attached to a ability that a sorc will use on himself nearly constantly anyways.

 

Only if he puts a point into it, so to say.

[foxmob]

To be fair what is or is not ridiculous depends on the context of the class. Low Slash if applied to any other class would be insanely ridiculous. But deception doesn't have a single anti-kiting tool outside of force speed. .

 

they have a hell of a lot more than force speed. but this illustrates my point entirely: why should a spec have an answer for everything? maras are fine. mercs are fine. snipers are fine. AP dcds are fine. the fact that a sorc doesn't need a tank and a healer is not fine. the counter to being kited is DON'T CHASE HIM. that's motivation to mix up your comps. JFC! it's not invent the next fotm troll spec.

[MisterPepssi]

>Says there are plenty of anit kite abilities

> fails to list even one of them

 

Force slow, Low slash, Whirl, Overload root. Shall I continue? I've mained the class for while, my man.

[Saikochoro]

I would agree if it weren't for the fact that I am almost never attacked by a single person at a time only. Sage/sorc is the most easily destroyed class under focus fire. Getting hit fgor 8-10k at a time, Bubble stun has saved me from a tryhard brigade more times than I can count.

 

I wouldn't mind if the resolve it gave was increased a bit

 

BS. Other classes also get hit for 8-10k. I have been hit for 8 - 10k on every single class...not just sorcs. Every attack I use on sorcs don't hit for 8 - 10k so stop with the exaggeration. Sorcs also have one of the best anti focus tools in the game. They also have enough cc and mobility to get away from groups. They are actually one of the harder classes to focus down. A merc goes down faster. A pt goes down faster. A mara goes down faster. A sniper goes down faster. If you are good with stuns an op will go down faster too...mainly because barrier can be used while stunned. Basically only sins and juggs are harder to focus down...and perhaps operatives if you don't use stuns and roots properly. Of course all of this assumes all classes have all their cooldowns....it would be stupid to compare them without their defenses.

 

Personally, even though I hate bubble stun it is not what irritates me about sorcs. What irritates me is their mobility. If they didn't have so much mobility then bubble stun wouldn't be as a big a deal.