EMP missile question... no, really!

[gsummers]

Ok, so after I realized that a recent thread about EMP missile was actually NOT about EMP missile, I decided to just start my own.

 

I've played quite a bit of GSF lately, but my experience with different builds is still pretty lacking. But I've grown tired of the mountains of mines placed around satellites in domination games. So to counter that, I decided to equip my spearpoint with emp missile, as that missile seems designed to counter mines. However, I found their effectiveness to be pretty limited.

 

Keep in mind that I have only unlocked the first two tiers of the EMP missile upgrades. Essentially, the biggest problem seems to be the range. Once I am close enough to lock on a missile, I am also generally in range of any gunships nearby, or any railgun mine in the cluster I am targeting. So I get one-shotted typically right before or after I am able to launch my missle. A second issue would be the lock on time. Even reduced, a 2.6 second lock on time feels like an eternity when facing a mine field and its defenders.

 

Are there any game style tips for emp missiles? Are they just to be avoided, or do you find that with the proper use, they are actually decent?

[TRFWesVos]

I don't know about the missile. I have a NovaDive equipped with an upgraded EMP just for this purpose, though - if there are a bunch of mines on a sat, I'll suicide in to set off the EMP and let the rest of the team clean up.

[caederon]

I've been playing with EMP missiles a bit lately on a Bloodmark because I never gave them much of a chance previously. Honestly, I have found them to be next to useless. The only really effective way to deal with minefields is ion railgun (or, I guess, plow a charged plating equipped bomber through them like a lawnmower).

 

The best use for EMP missile that I have found is temporarily shutting down the turrets on an unguarded satellite so you can knock them out very inefficiently with your non-armor-piercing lasers... though if you're running EMP on a T2 strike, you can take heavies and not need EMP missile at all to shut down the turrets. I guess at least on the T3 scout and T3 strike, this is an edge-case use for EMP missile.

 

Don't forget, it can shut down engine component use if so talented! That has... a tiny bit of marginal use.

 

It's not the worst missile, but in no way would I consider it a good missile.

 

- Despon

[nyghtrunner]

I think in general, EMP missile is next to useless. The idea is sound, but the performance for various reasons just isn't there.

 

The only EMP weapon I give much of a nod to is EMP Field on the Blackbolt/Novadive, and largely because it's instant, and if leveled high enough, will disable all systems and engine components in anything caught in the blast, so you're able to stop the bombers from deploying at least 1 of their mines for I think 30s, and anything else caught in the blast loses Systems and a missile break for a while.

 

It's still not great, though. I'm kind of in line with Despon here, in that the best way to get rid of a mine field is Ion Rail, but even then, you need friends to help either push the bombers into your LOS for Slug-fire, or to just go in and mop up. In an environment where your team is organized and communicating well, that can work. If you're not, it makes it much more difficult, and Ion spam ends up just padding the damage numbers.

 

Honestly, I think the solution for EMP missile would be to make it dumb-fire, increase the range, increase the blast radius (may not be necessary on a dumbfire), and have it just explode on anything it hits within its range. In my experience, getting in range, and then stopping short enough to loose the missile on a target without setting off mines and such means you really do have to stop short for 2+ seconds of the lock, which is not really a very helpful thing to be doing on a heavily defended node.

 

The EMP idea they had is a good idea, I just think the implementation of all EMP effects/components is pretty poorly done, and it's largely because the innate weaknesses based on the weapon designs are bad enough to outweigh the benefits in lots of cases.

 

EMP isn't completely worthless, but it's not strong enough on its own to be able to really clear out multiple bombers effectively (And honestly, you could make the case that this is correct. A single pilot shouldn't be able to take out multiple entrenched bombers).

 

I think one of the best things you might be able to do to a bomber at a node is hit it with a Thermite Torpedo, and move in for the kill with your lasers while the debuff is up, since they will be considerably less tanky. If you can get someone to go in and EMP them or get someone to ion rail away the adds to give you the window to move in, it's a pretty good way to deal with a single bomber.

 

That said, almost all bombers can be taken down with careful planning and patience. Stacking bombers becomes more and more difficult for a single pilot to deal with, regardless of ship/spec, though. And that ends up being why it's such a sound strategy in DOMs, because the team in opposition needs to know what they're doing, and be able to coordinate at least some degree to deal with multiple bombers on a node. I recognize the use/power of bombers, but I think that in a lot of ways, they're a bit too strong with some of the game design and mechanic choices. I don't think they're super powerful, especially when on their own, but I understand why people hate it when the opposition stacks them as a 4 or 5-of in DOM matches, because that can make things pretty hopeless unless your team can/does field the appropriate counter, and is coordinated enough to take them down systematically. The part that makes it a bit imbalanced is that you only need a couple of shlubs to hop in bombers and run around, and they don't have to be that good to be very effective in multiples, whereas the counter to them does take at least some coordination and some number of competent players.

 

Anyway, there's a bit of ramble in there... If you want the TL;DR, I think it's safe to say that in most cases, EMP effectiveness is pretty underwhelming.

[Nemarus]

You'll have the "railguns can outrange missiles" problem no matter what missile or torpedo you are using, so that really shouldn't factor into your decision.

 

As for EMP Missile, It's only worth consideration on ships that are stuck with B-tier secondary weapons--namely the Bloodmark/Spearpoint and Imperium/Clarion.

 

And on both of those ships, you also have access to Thermite Torpedoes, which are devastating if you get one off, and crucial for taking out Charged Plating Bombers.

 

That being said, on my many alts, some run Thermite and some run EMP.

 

As Despon noted, EMP'sare great for taking out turrets. One EMP Missile will damage and disable all three turrets. You might be tempted to finish off the turrets with your guns, but I offer an alternative strategy... kill all three turrets all at once by hitting one of them with three EMP Missiles.

 

Just hang out at 7.7k, lock on to the nearest turret and fire. Then run out of range while you wait for EMP Missile to reload. Repeat twice, and all three turrets will die all at once.

 

This is especially good against a satellite with no defenders, since you destroy all three turrets at once and thus can start capping immediately, before the enemy team gets any warning.

 

Or even if the satellite is defended, destroying all three turrets at once, from a distance, is generally going to allow you to take less damage and stay alive longer--and you don't have to stick on the satellite to keep turrets from respawning, since you'll go from 3 to zero instantly.

[SWCNT]

In regular play I agree with the above posts. Sadly, EMPs are like strikes—you could probably always find something better that would help your team out more. Also, I haven’t found EMP missiles to be any more useful in serious team play. I’ve tried several times to get EMP missiles to work well and convince myself they have a great role in team play. Two super serious events ago I ran an Imperium with EMP/CP/Repairs with the idea of trying to help out T1 bombers on a node by EMPing everything and healing them. The heals from the T3 are very useful in such situations because they are buffs—cannot be disable or destroyed by missiles/AOE etc. Most repair drones don’t last long in serious play, at least not when they are around a node. The idea kind of worked, and with CP and deflection armor I could stay alive long enough to be useful, but really my heals helped more than the EMPs. My observations were:

1. Turrets rarely were up long enough to be useful for the EMP locks.

2. Friendly ships were facing tanking spam faster than my missile locks, so I rarely could lock on to spam.

3. I had to constantly try and lock on to the bombers for the EMP missile to work, difficult against good bomber pilots unless they are snared.

With these observations Chukker and I played around with the idea of running a T1 scout with EMP field, that way it’s instant and you can avoid the lock on issues. Basic strategy is pop EMP field, get away from node and GS hunt. Repeat. I found this strategy better, but since questionable in regards to overall effectiveness. In other words, I felt I could have been more useful in a burst/pod scout, or a GS with ion, or a bomber. I don’t think running a EMP build is a crucial component to having a good, well-rounded team. It was fun to try though. In terms of solo play I would never consider it on a serious build.

[Drakkolich]

As Despon noted, EMP'sare great for taking out turrets. One EMP Missile will damage and disable all three turrets. You might be tempted to finish off the turrets with your guns, but I offer an alternative strategy... kill all three turrets all at once by hitting one of them with three EMP Missiles.

 

Just hang out at 7.7k, lock on to the nearest turret and fire. Then run out of range while you wait for EMP Missile to reload. Repeat twice, and all three turrets will die all at once.

 

This is especially good against a satellite with no defenders, since you destroy all three turrets at once and thus can start capping immediately, before the enemy team gets any warning.

 

Or even if the satellite is defended, destroying all three turrets at once, from a distance, is generally going to allow you to take less damage and stay alive longer--and you don't have to stick on the satellite to keep turrets from respawning, since you'll go from 3 to zero instantly.

 

I had to read this 5 times before I believed you actually suggested this.

 

For anyone taking notes you just suggested someone park 7.7k from a satellite and sit there for 30 seconds to fire 3 EMP missiles at the turrets. Not only that, but EMP missile is currently bugged and only does 180 damage instead of 360 mentioned on the tooltip meaning it would actually be an entire minute of waiting instead of 30 seconds because you would have to fire 6 EMP missiles to achieve this.

 

Not to mention turrets have a lot of armor and nowhere does EMP missile say it ignores armor.

 

Even if somehow it did only take 3 EMP missiles to do this that would be a colossal waste of time to do it like that. If the enemy team seriously doesn't notice someone sitting near their satellite for 30 seconds then it doesn't really matter what you do in that game cause you are going to win anyways.

 

Edit: I stand completely corrected I always assumed the ship eating the direct damage took the full damage but infact all ships hit with it take half damage so yes you could Aoe down all the turrets with 3 Missiles, which in my opinion is still way too long to be sitting there doing nothing however. I somehow also completely missed the part where it ignores damage reduction in the tooltip too so sorry about that as well.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Drakkolich

[Nemarus]

I had to read this 5 times before I believed you actually suggested this.

 

For anyone taking notes you just suggested someone park 7.7k from a satellite and sit there for 30 seconds to fire 3 EMP missiles at the turrets. Not only that, but EMP missile is currently bugged and only does 180 damage instead of 360 mentioned on the tooltip meaning it would actually be an entire minute of waiting instead of 30 seconds because you would have to fire 6 EMP missiles to achieve this.

 

Even if somehow it did only take 3 EMP missiles to do this that would be a colossal waste of time to do it like that. If the enemy team seriously doesn't notice someone sitting near their satellite for 30 seconds then it doesn't really matter what you do in that game cause you are going to win anyways.

 

I'm a little surprised by the harsh reply from you Drakolich, as well as you stating with such certainty "facts" that are proven incorrect by simply checking http://dulfy.net/2013/11/16/swtor-galactic-starfighter/.

 

EMP Missile has never been bugged. It deals full damage to turrets, mines, and drones. Its tool tip clearly states it does half damage to ships. Its tooltip also says it ignores shields and damage reduction:

 

Fires a medium-range lock-on issile that releases an electromagnetic pulse with 3000m radius on impact with its target. The pulse will disable mines and drones for 15 seconds, and deal 335 damage directly to their hull, ignoring shields and damage reduction. Ships caught in the radius suffer half damage, and will have their system ability disabled for 15 seconds.

 

The "Armor-piercing" section of the tooltip also says "100%".

 

So yes, you can destroy a turret with three EMP Missiles, and thus can destroy all three due to AOE. What I don't know is how many EMP missiles are needed to take out a drone, because I don't know drone hit points off hand, and they aren't listed that I can find.

 

As for the validity of the strat, I agree that it is generally not wise to use it on an undefended sat--better to just gun down the turrets and take the node before defenders show up.

 

But if the sat does have defenders, and you are attacking alone, you may have better success using missiles from range to destroy all three turrets. Most defenders will assume you are just dicking around and won't leave the node to pursue you, and you should have decent protection from Gunships due to Evasion (assuming Bloodmark). If someone does pursue you, they've got no Engine or Shield ability, so you have at least some advantage in trying to fight or evade them.

 

Either way, if you get all three missiles off, then all three of their turrets are gone, and you can sweep in with full health, stay close to the sat so no new turrets spawn, and try to kill any Dronecarriers as fast as possible. You will have at least 15 seconds before their old drone (if it is alive) can fire, or before they can drop a new one.

 

By no means am I suggesting this is some top tier strat. I'm just saying its a unique trick that I've had some success with while messing around with EMP Missiles. I'd still go with thermites in any serious match.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Nemarus

[Nemarus]

Edit: I stand completely corrected I always assumed the ship eating the direct damage took the full damage but infact all ships hit with it take half damage so yes you could Aoe down all the turrets with 3 Missiles, which in my opinion is still way too long to be sitting there doing nothing however. I somehow also completely missed the part where it ignores damage reduction in the tooltip too so sorry about that as well.

 

No worries

 

And yeah, when I first realized you could AOE down all three turrets with 3 missiles, I wasn't like "OMG I'VE UNLOCKED SECRET POWAH". I was more like, "Heh, that's kinda interesting."

 

I figure if someone is using EMP Missiles, they aren't in super intense matches anyway, so why not try interesting tactics while will befuddle your enemies? It works especially well on A and C satellites, since you can come at the satellites from the edges of the map (with Dampening Sensors), lock on, and then LOS to cover. And the defenders cannot do anything to heal the turrets between your strikes.

 

Whereas with Thermite, sure you can one-shot a turret, but then you have to get on the satellite to prevent the turret from respawning.

 

An interesting question is... if ships did take full damage from EMP Missiles, might they be worth using? Imagine a wing of four ships all with EMP Missiles. You could hit everyone on a satellite with 1300 hull damage.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Nemarus

[tunewalker]

Oh wow.... EMP Missiles LITTERALLY were designed to be god aweful Terrible the "bug" was an intended Design.... that's just sad what a Piece of junk.

[Bolo_Yeung]

Actually I find Bloodmark with EMP missile pretty useful.

Of course it won't just work like 'EMP and kill'em'all' - you will need a team for it. But for the team it will be pretty good help.

Disable shields ability means there won;t be viable missile lock breakers apart from EMP field (since engine maneuvers most of the time are meaning going out of satellite control sphere). Also, it will destroy and disable placing of new interdiction mines and drones

However, you most of te times can't just stand still 7700 m from turret and lock the missile (except maybe B node in Kuat Mesas / C in Lost Shipyards) where you have much places to cover behind). Try to calculate where you can fly without ticking the mines, boost (yes, 2-3 hits from turrets are better than one from slug), release missile close to turret and fly away, preferrably with Power Dive (again , not on B/C nodes mentioned earlier... unles you know what to do)

Again, you won't be a great solo capper. If you really wish to give it a try, maybe T3 GS with EMP and Interdiction will be good in taking out the bombers as well...

[lwiggles]

As for EMP Missile, It's only worth consideration on ships that are stuck with B-tier secondary weapons--namely the Bloodmark/Spearpoint and Imperium/Clarion.

 

Yeps. I like EMP missile on tensor Scout. Speed cap a sat and then reek havoc with enemy bombers or satts. More fun than a suicide swap for sure

[Drakkolich]

I definitely miss read the hell out of the tooltip somehow I was also on my way out the door when I read your initial post and might have snapped a little harder then I should have. (tone wise I mean)

 

I did manage to get that edit in before I left though so I hope that makes up for it.

 

I really thought the target ship being hit by the EMP was supposed to take the full 360 and it was bugged all this time, but I guess it's just explained very oddly.

 

To everyone I have been telling for over a year that it is bugged and is only doing half damage I apologize.

 

 

The big reason I got very upset reading your initial post was it really did seem like you advocating this as a sound strategy at first. As a "unique trick" I definitely have no problem with it. I guess it's the phrasing "I offer an alternative strategy" that just seemed out of place to me.

Anyways sorry again for overreacting and it's nice to know that even after 5500 games played I'm still learning stuff!

[Danalon]

I used EMP missiles on my T3 Strike because I misread the T5 tooltip. I thought the pulse disables shields but it only disables the use of the ability. In other words, I planned to remove charged plating from bombers but it didn't work. Edited May 2, 2015 by Danalon

[Archonitek]

Emp missiles have always been a 'teehee' weapon in my view. Quite gratifiying to see 7-8 mines/drones being taken out at once.

 

Although the only time i've used it well is when partnered up with a someone in a sting/ff who dives in as soon as emp lands and either kills the bombers or drives them off point enough that you can fly in and help. Drop repair probes on top of the sat for additional support.

 

And if you're very VERY lucky, you might dink someone in red hp and get a kill from the aoe.

[Zharik]

EMP missiles are underrated, period. There are things you NEED to do to make them useful though, and most vets just stick with the tried and true clusters instead from either lack of patience or knowledge.

 

Tip #1: Use them when attacking a satellite on the turrets, then the entire sat takes EMP missile hit... this can wipe all the mines and disable the drones in the area and disable shields or engines for a short time on all defenders. Note some patience is required when attacking without a more "conventional" ship build as a wingman. Do NOT destroy the turrets, as they always get hit by the EMP missile and always confer an auto hit to all enemies in the splash range. If attacking with friends, make sure that they know to leave the turrets alone. Last thing.. do not be afraid to peel off from your assault to set up a new run with an EMP missile on a turret again... Do not go "toe-to-toe" with a bomber. Power Dive can let you do attacking runs with a nice dodge to get away and set up again.

 

Tip #2: Target bombers that do not have a missile evade option. They are dropping mines/drones anyway so you'll likely hit those with splash, which is the weapon's intended purpose. Also any scouts, GSs, etc in the area... suddenly cannot use their system ability and either engine or shield ability?? WOW amazing.

 

Please note that there *are* better space superiority missiles. These are anti-bomber weapons, nothing more. Their use is quite limited when facing nothing but scouts and GSs, so they are a niche weapon. Use them for their purpose or be disappointed. I have 1 ship with them (T3 scout with Tensor, shield projectors is my choice) in my hangar for bomber heavy opponents.

 

TL;DR - Fire them at things that *can't* missile break. Turrets, some bombers, drones, mines, etc. Particularly in tight groups.

 

Also Nem: I would suggest 1 EMP missile to disable all 3 turrets, laser them all to under 30% then EMP the last for your 'attacking an undefended satellite' scenario. Faster and provides the same insta-destroy result and puts you in cap range at the moment of destruction.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Zharik

[Ramalina]

EMP missiles are underrated, period. There are things you NEED to do to make them useful though, and most vets just stick with the tried and true clusters instead from either lack of patience or knowledge.

 

No they really aren't underrated. They are specialist anti-mine weapons suitable for tightly packed minefields.

 

I say anti-mine weapons, because they really aren't very good anti-bomber weapons. The also aren't very good anti-drone or anti-turret weapons. With a good anti-bomber weapon the optimal strategy is not, "have another ship kill it for me," and with a good anti-drone or anti-turret weapon the target is going to die so quickly that it doesn't have time to do significant damage to your ship. Having time to clear turrets and drones at your leisure is nice, but it gives the opposition that much time to notice and work on countering what you're doing.

 

EMP missiles aren't plagued by poor fundamental design in the way that some components are, but they don't do enough of what they are designed to do to be worth taking over other components that do adequate or excellent amounts of their jobs.

 

They're roughly in the RLF-ish range of components balance wise. Usable, fun in a trollish sort of way, but not really good even under ideal circumstances.

[Zharik]

Ramalina, this is a team game. While a great pilot with a mastered battlescout can sometimes carry a lesser team, it is still a team game. The EMP missile situationally helps your team win, where clusters only help you, really. The situation is frequent enough to warrant a single ship build with this missile in your hangar if you want one. If you don't then stick with the ships/builds you want, but don't compare EMP missiles to RFLs. RFLs have a bonafide purely better choice in LLCs which do the same thing as RFLs but better in every way that matters. EMP missiles do not. No other missile can clear a sat (albeit temporarily) from a heavy bomber defense, disable bombers system abilities and either engine or shield abilities too, let alone do it better.

 

Some times all I need to do with my EMP missiles is to occupy 3 defenders at sat A, while the rest of my team enjoys a 7-5 advantage for the rest of the map. That is in no small part to the utility of EMP missiles (Power Dive helps) allowing me to survive and even threaten that sat.

[Ramalina]

A weapon with a unique ability is not the same thing as a weapon with a highly useful ability.

 

The comparison with RFLs was carefully considered. RFLs can do the job of being a primary weapon, but they sacrifice so much item budget for a "special" trait that just about any other option in that slot is a better choice.

 

You could argue that EMP has more missiles in its range of power, but that's more a matter of there being multiple utility missiles that have very overpriced utility that turns out not to be very useful.

 

EMP reduces the DPS potential of unskilled bombers against other unskilled players by a large margin and also slightly reduces the bomber's survivability.

 

Killing the bomber however, reduces its DPS potential to zero, and removes it from the area where it influences control of the sat. This is why very skilled pilots favor anti-bomber weapons over the anti-mine weapon of EMP, the anti-bomber weapons are more useful when helping a team fight against a cluster of bombers.

 

To graduate from an overpriced anti-mine gimmick weapon to a serious effective anti-bomber weapon EMP would either need a lot more AP damage on its primary target or some sort of thermite like debuff to allow AP damage to be done to its target(s).

 

I'll also point out that it's ridiculous to compare EMP missiles with clusters. EMP missiles don't compete with anything for a general DPS role, they compete for an anti-bomber role. Their competitors are things like Ion Railgun, Slug railgun, BLCs, HLCs, Torpedoes, Rocket Pods, possibly even Plasma Railgun. In that arena they trail their competitors in functionality against bombers, and have no redeeming power in any other area.

 

Facing a cluster of bombers is a situation that is encountered frequently, EMP being the best weapon choice against a cluster of bombers is not a situation that is encountered frequently.

 

 

TLDR, the very good players don't neglect EMP because they are impatient or due to lack of knowledge about how best to use it, they neglect it because they know that it still isn't a good choice for an anti-bomber role even if employed optimally.

 

 

Now if there were a, "Minesweeper," achievement and title . . . .

 

Well, if there were EMP would still be worse than Ion Railgun, but at least it would have a fighting chance against CP ship builds for second place when it came to minesweeping.

 

With all that said, if you hate flying minelayers, hate flying the T1 gunship, and really really want to kill lots of mines without being damaged by them (but are ok with the bombers surviving) then EMP is a good choice for doing that. As with the Ion Railgun there is a fun element to seeing LOTS of damage numbers pop up around a sat.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Ramalina

[Enurrsha]

For "fun" dom matches lately (especially Denon), I have been tinkering (quite successfully) with a bomber-interceptor Condor/Jurgoran build using EMP & Interdiction Missiles. It isn't really designed to peel bombers off a sat, but more to keep them from ever getting there (hence "interceptor"). As soon as you can tell which sat the nearby bomber is headed to, afterburn out to it, EMP Missile, Interdiction Missile, then finish closing the distance &/or pull in behind it & chew it apart with BLCs. By the time you have sent in both missiles & closed to BLC range, it is pretty much helpless & very soon dead. I haven't used this setup in a "serious" match & honestly don't know if I will, but in "fun" matches ... it is VERY fun. Oh, and obviously, if the missiles land, this setup works just fine on other ships too.