hsuz Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 What do LS DS options actually represent? It sometimes isn't clear at all: 3 examples: 1. JK spoiler: Jedi Knights can flirt with the new Twi'lek matriarch on Tython for DS points. In this case, DS approximates to going against the Jedi Code. Flirting and consensual romantic activity is not against any generally accepted moral code. 2. In any number of situations where killing a prisoner instead of letting him/her go, DS points are awarded because it corresponds to generally accepted morality in general, independent of its affiliations with the Jedi or Sith. (i.e. "don't kill people, doing so is bad") 3. Esseles spoiler: Letting the engineers die is DS, roughly approximating to generally accepted morality. In terms of the Jedi code, however, it can ostensibly be LS, because Jedi are asked to act calmly, and with reason. Letting emotions get in the way ("we must save them naoughw!") is DS according to how LSDS works in example 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tallian Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 What do LS DS options actually represent? It sometimes isn't clear at all: 3 examples: 1. JK spoiler: Jedi Knights can flirt with the new Twi'lek matriarch on Tython for DS points. In this case, DS approximates to going against the Jedi Code. Flirting and consensual romantic activity is not against any generally accepted moral code. 2. In any number of situations where killing a prisoner instead of letting him/her go, DS points are awarded because it corresponds to generally accepted morality in general, independent of its affiliations with the Jedi or Sith. (i.e. "don't kill people, doing so is bad") 3. Esseles spoiler: Letting the engineers die is DS, roughly approximating to generally accepted morality. In terms of the Jedi code, however, it can ostensibly be LS, because Jedi are asked to act calmly, and with reason. Letting emotions get in the way ("we must save them naoughw!") is DS according to how LSDS works in example 1. It represents whatever the person writing the story arbitrarily this is light/dark at the time of writing. My ideal interpretation is that lightside/darkside are personal thing, and have to do with personal morality(which is pretty standardized when everyone is raised from a very young age inside a rigid religious structure, ie the Jedi Temple), but thats not something that can be worked into a game like this due to mechanics. Tho, they could tailor it if everyone took an exhaustive psychological profile during account creation, but then, who would do that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsuz Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 It represents whatever the person writing the story arbitrarily this is light/dark at the time of writing. My ideal interpretation is that lightside/darkside are personal thing, and have to do with personal morality(which is pretty standardized when everyone is raised from a very young age inside a rigid religious structure, ie the Jedi Temple), but thats not something that can be worked into a game like this due to mechanics. Tho, they could tailor it if everyone took an exhaustive psychological profile during account creation, but then, who would do that Lol true. It does seem that the writers were told "OK GUYS WE NEED X NUMBER OF LS/DS CHOICES IN THIS SEQUENCE" and they had to make do, thus making certain LS/DS decision downright odd. I did appreciate the effort to reflect nuances in behaviour with multiple LS/DS options, presumable awarding more or less points depending on severity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyberCommando Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 You don't pvp much do you. PvP Relics are available aren't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tallian Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 PvP Relics are available aren't they? They aren't as good as non-pvp relics, since they have no stats, only an on-use ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyberCommando Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 They aren't as good as non-pvp relics, since they have no stats, only an on-use ability. Thats depressing. Are they at least competitive when it comes to PvP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olinore Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 My Chiss bounty hunter, which I roleplay, is neutral-aligned. Sometimes she chose Light-side answers, sometimes Dark, based on what made sense for her motivations. I didn't worry about the alignment points I was getting, because I was playing her true to her personality. Then I noticed there were no neutral relics... =( So now I pick the Light side answers, because I don't want to end up missing gear pieces and having a disadvantaged character. I pick Light even when it doesn't fit her values. I have activated the feature that shows the Dark or Light alignment of answers... which I didn't want to do before, because I didn't want it to influence my character's decisions, and frankly I feel that it breaks the RP immersion to have to keep track of 'points'. I think this sucks from an RP point of view. I really wish there were alignment-neutral relics. Maybe at least some could be added to the crafting professions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ApesAmongUs Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) They've already said they plan to add some comparable "neutral" gear for those who want to play a neutral alignment. Moot point until we see what they come up with. What can they possibly come up with? Either they... 1. put in neutral gear that is similar in power level but with different stats than the light/dark stuff, in which case you get situations like tanks need to go light while DPS needs to stay neutral. That's no better than the current state of things. or 2. you have identical gear available for neutral (ie everyone), which effectively makes duplicates of many items and inflates the costs of the neutral versions since they will be in demand by everyone. Slightly better, but neutrals end up having to pay more for identical stats. or 3. you have identical gear available for neutral (and is restricted to neutral), which means that forced light and forced dark and forced neutral are valid choices, but the guy who plays naturally and ends up level 1.5 dark at level 50 still gets screwed when the best relics needs dark V or completely neutral, which is no better than the current state of things. Edited January 3, 2012 by ApesAmongUs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tallian Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Thats depressing. Are they at least competitive when it comes to PvP? Probably depends on your playstyle, the ones I glanced at seemed to provide the same bonus when used as the non-pvp ones give when combining the use and the base, so your stat spikes will be the same, but you will have higher baseline endurance(since your gonna get one that gives end as its base stat, simply for pvp). Might wanna go over to the pvp forums for a more accurate assessment tho, my pvp experience come from eve online, not a wow style mmo, so I am not doing any serious analysis of endgame gear anytime soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tallian Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 What can they possibly come up with? Either they... 1. put in neutral gear that is similar in power level but with different stats than the light/dark stuff, in which case you get situations like tanks need to go light while DPS needs to stay neutral. That's no better than the current state of things. or 2. you have identical gear available for neutral (ie everyone), which effectively makes duplicates of many items and inflates the costs of the neutral versions since they will be in demand by everyone. Slightly better, but neutrals end up having to pay more for identical stats. or 3. you have identical gear available for neutral (and is restricted to neutral), which means that forced light and forced dark and forced neutral are valid choices, but the guy who plays naturally and ends up level 1.5 dark at level 50 when the best relics needs dark V or completely neutral, which is no better than the current state of things. You can easily grind alignment in the game, especially end game. Just blitz BT/Esseles over and over solo, or run a bleepton of diplomacy missions, so fixing your alignment isn't a huge issue(tho annoying during the leveling portion of the game, and gamebreaking for people who came because of the painless grind here). To me its an issue of being able to play my character the way I see her, and still compete with those who went cookie cutter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ApesAmongUs Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 You can easily grind alignment in the game, especially end game. What does that have to do without anything I said or with the general topic of this thread. You're proposing a workaround, not addressing the actual issue. There is already an easy workaround if that's what you want - make all light/dark choices throughout the game. That addresses the core problem as well as your version does - which is to say, not at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkbacca Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) I would say to you try labeling your thread as "Alignment Mechanics Issue for Relics" cause that seems like it would be harder to hide in the lore section. Playing Devil's Advocate: I understand the aggravation of being denied the use of relics on level just because you lack the dark/light side modifier. ie. Dark III or Light IV. But if you think of it that these are meant to be relics of the dark or light side it would only make sense that you have to be more attuned to that "side of the force" to use the more powerful relics. These are items that are specifically based on the choices YOU make rather than your LEVEL. (Caps not meant for yelling, just for emphasis use). For example, since you aren't attuned to the light or dark as strongly maybe Light II by 50 you're forced to use a Light II relic, yes it's only a level 20 item but that is only how strongly aligned to the force you are. I know this is not the answer people want since it does, in essence, cripple your character. But it is the only way to make your choices have true consequences. Without this mechanic there would be no reason to have story with choices, because in essence they would have no effect on any later outcome. Edited January 3, 2012 by Hawkbacca Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tallian Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 What does that have to do without anything I said or with the general topic of this thread. You're proposing a workaround, not addressing the actual issue. There is already an easy workaround if that's what you want - make all light/dark choices throughout the game. That addresses the core problem as well as your version does - which is to say, not at all. No, I was pointing out that if you make a couple choices that leave you slightly off the mark, you can fix it to get to where you need to be, thats totally within the limits of the issue, unless you want to make gear that is unrestricted(will end up with hundreds of identical jedi) or make gear specific for each level of light/dark. For neutral, you have 2000 points of leeway(total, 1k each direction) and I DO think that there should be alot of high end rewards for being dedicated to a path. But then, I play a force user, and it DOES mean alot to my character. A non-force user should have equal gear, itemized for them, that are not alignment restricted(easy, make sure it gives bonuses that are mainly useless to force users) to free them to make realistic choices. Honestly, a force user is always going to follow alignment if being played right, even the the alignment they are following is neutral, so that is where the issue should be as far as neutral specific gear, not on the tech users. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Looneybanger Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Personally I couldn't care less about Relics right now. I pick my choices on how it feels at the moment. It has left my Sith as a neutral alignment which is fine. The problem arises while trying to outfit Ashara a bit. Maybe I am looking in the wrong spot but every single lightsaber I have seen on the Market and vendors requires either Light 1+ or Dark 1+. That is the problem as I see it. There's no weapons I can buy for her. I thought modding the crystal was supposed to change the alignment requirements for weapons but nope. On some weapons it does but most I have seen it doesn't change anything. Removing the blue crystal and slapping a nice red crystal in it still has Light I requirements. I would be happy with some empty neutral weapons that I have to spend credits on mods to upgrade it but alas. Nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordMerrick Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 It is utterly REVOLTING how many people in this thread are so controlling, bigoted, narrow-minded, and obtuse. I am actually disgusted to learn that I'm playing the same game and somehow connected with these people out in the world. The most common response in this thread has been: " Well I don't play that way so obviously you're stupid and your playing style isn't valid bcuz it's different than mine so you must obviously be wrong and your concerns are ridiculous and absurd. Stop whining like a brat and just be forced to play my way, anything else is total BS. The next most common response is complete, almost willful lack of comprehension. "Well i turned off the indicators and my character ended up mostly LS or DS so you must either be a total weirdo or you're just not playing this game the right way" Hello? Not everybody makes the same decisions as you do. And since not everyone makes the same decisions as you, not everyone is going to end up mostly LS or DS like you did....... even if they turn the LS/DS indicators off and just make natural choices. Next is "you can't play neutral because neutral is not legitimate in real life". First: the world isnt black and white, its many shades of grey. You'll learn that around the time you get old enough to shave. Second, this isn't real life! It's a game, where people want to explore things they might not do in real life....and where people want just a little bit for things to go their way (otherwise whats the point of multiple characters, alignments, and paths?). But most importantly, you're completely off topic bcuz the OP never said he wanted to intentionally play neutral. He said neutrality was the natural consequence of his choices. There is a major difference. Finally, if the OP DOES want to play intentionally neutral, who are you to say he/she shouldn't have that right? Are you paying a higher subscription fee that makes your vote special? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordMerrick Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 In many cases the LS/DS award is so random, unclear or unrealistic it amounts to forcing someone else's (the writers') seemingly contradictory morality on your character and forces you right out of immersion and makes you feel completely removed from the conversation or the decision making process. That is, unless you decide a gimped character is something you don't mind. Its a great idea but many people are finding that in its current implementation it detracts from the experience rather than adding to it like was intended. One possible solution to keep consequences and accountability involved in the decision making process is to have your alignment affect how NPC's treat you. Possibly whether you gain access to certain missions or they become unavailable to you.... or maybe it affects how much money and gear is offered to you by biased mission givers as an award for a mission. Maybe if your alignment gets too far out of whack you get disciplined by your order, such as fined a fee, or even kicked/exiled and forced to turn from republic to empire or vice versa. Maybe it would be an improvement to just have no consequences at all. One thing is certain: Non-force using characters like bounty hunter and smuggler should not have to worry about alignment affecting their gear. It should be a concern for jedi and sith only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IvamAkorahil Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Alignment gear is cosmetic. Every piece of gear that's not alignment gated is neutral gear. this, most of the ds /ls items are crap as hell or moddable items only Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolftrot Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 (edited) This mechanic sucks. I am level 40 with light 1 as a trooper. I'll probably stay around there or go to gray/light 2 at most. I don't want to be gimped for something as silly as alignment restriction in a COMPETITIVE game that encourages immersion. They need to remove this ASAP, and make the relics usable by either light / dark side, regardless of their respective rank. Gray should be able to use both. It's a nice mechanic IN THEORY, but it won't work. I am already pissed. Edited January 6, 2012 by Wolftrot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClayPeopleCry Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 (edited) My Imperial Agent is screwed. Because I'm role playing with him. He is 100% for the advancement of the Empire, but he's not heartless. If he is in a situation that only concerns him, and does nothing for the Empire, he will act on his own morals. Like for example, when he picked the light side option to help that man set his brother free. But shortly after he picked the dark side option when he had to bring the force sensitive child back to his mother so she could send him away to become Sith. He had to kill the father, or else he couldn't get the child, and without the child the Empire could be losing out on gaining a powerful Sith. So while he is a good guy at heart, when matters of the Empire come into play, he has to be emotionless and act on the behalf of the Empire. Edited January 6, 2012 by ClayPeopleCry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oneiros_IV Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Essentially Star Wars is most black & white morality setting ever. So I'd say issue is inherent to genre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nessundorma Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Essentially Star Wars is most black & white morality setting ever. So I'd say issue is inherent to genre. Lando Calrissian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrifKaylon Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Posting my support. Unfortunately, I didn't read much past the OP (currently at work...), so I imagine anything I could say has probably been said in ten pages, but the alignment system as it stands is a lousy game mechanic. It was lousy in KoTOR (though not quite as egregious as here) and it was awful in Mass Effect 1/2. Making realistic choices based on how your character would react to a situation should not be punished further down the line when you realize you don't have enough "good" or "bad" points on some arbitrary morality meter. I will say that the Dragon Age games nailed this - probably because they didn't have a morality system, just narrative repercussions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maithu Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 I agree with the original poster. I play a BH that does what will likely pay the most and when money isn't involved he doesn't kill unless attacked. So I just leveled up to 50 without using artifacts since I hardly ever was above dark 1 or light 1, it would have been nice with the litle extra bonus. Imo best items for Sith should be dark 5 and Jedi light 5, and for the rest it should be not quite as good but level based. A Sith/Jedi with that play the other way can get a nice artifact on par with the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vromrig Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 When you don't understand the story venue and you have a poor understanding of moralities, you get threads like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethyrprime Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 (edited) Thank god there is a topic for this I was going to create one and call it.. Why does Bioware hate Jolee Bindo? Because that is my chosen path. I am some where in the middle because I've taken the choices that I wanted rather than always going for darkside/lightside ++. I've basically ignored the reward effects and played through the way I felt best described my own desired personal journey through the swtor universe. +1 to the OP If gear is going to be restricted based on alignment then at least include a neutral alignment option. Please and thank you. It doesn't have to be anything voice/story just fix the itemization for us neutral players. Edited January 6, 2012 by Aethyrprime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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