SW:Rebels - season II

[dcaleb]

Have a hard time giving him any credit, with the way he's destroying the Inquisitorious, making all the Inquisitors streamed lined and weak as ***.

 

Sure Legends Inquisitors weren't great either, but they at least were versatile in different powers. Which Rebels should be doing them, thus making each encounter with an Inquisitor different and the crew having to fight in different ways...but nope...nope, let's just have them all be the same with double bladed lightsabers and TK ability.

 

Remember when Palpatine had Dooku try to off Ventress because she was getting strong enough Palpatine thought Dooku might be able to use her to double team him? Palpatine doesn't want his apprentices having minions that are strong, strong minions make it easier for his apprentice to take him out. Them being low tier scrubs makes sense.

[Rhyltran]

Filoni seems to want to have his cake and eat it too reference things like the inquisitors. On the one hand, he wants to kill them off because they were never mentioned in episodes IV, V, and VI; yet is happy to add a living Darth Maul even though I have found no mention of him as alive after episode I.

 

I would suggest the galaxy is a much larger place than can be recounted in 6+ (for inquisitors and Jedi). There is no reason inquisitors or Jedi could have survived into episode IV and beyond. They simply were not involved/known to the key players and events from the movies...so far.

 

I also go back to the idea that there was always a first Jedi. By that I mean if someone figured it out without the existence of an order the first time, someone can do it again.

 

It comes down to, if Maul can exist past episode I there is no reason there cannot be inquisitors and Jedi into the rebellion era and beyond.

 

Maul was mentioned quite a bit in the clone wars, several comics, etc.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Remember when Palpatine had Dooku try to off Ventress because she was getting strong enough Palpatine thought Dooku might be able to use her to double team him? Palpatine doesn't want his apprentices having minions that are strong, strong minions make it easier for his apprentice to take him out. Them being low tier scrubs makes sense.

 

Except that's Ventress and Dooku, neither of which the Inquisitors are on the level of, not even Legends Inquisitors(except for Jerec)...yet they were still diverse in their powers. Being diverse doesn't mean they are powerful to take on Sidious, but it makes things a lot more interesting and would make the Rebels crew needing to think twice.

 

Plus it's not as if Palpatine didn't have powerful underlings other than Vader, yet when he deemed them too powerful, he just moved them like Cronal or restricted their knowledge like Jerec.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Wolfninjajedi

[CaulderBenson]

Honestly, credit should be given more to Filoni than Disney for bringing Legends stuff in.

 

Something to point out - Disney isn't making Star Wars.

 

It's still Lucasfilm, but with no George Lucas.

 

Disney bought Star Wars and owns it, but they're letting Lucasfilm do their own thing.

 

Force Awakens, Rebels, ditching the EU - it's Lucasfilm. Not Disney.

 

Fussing at Filoni (Not you MadDutchman) is like fussing directly at George Lucas. Filoni was more or less handpicked by Lucas to run the Clone Wars and indirectly Rebels.

 

If you fuss at Disney, you're fussing at the Mouse for something they didn't do.

Edited May 24, 2016 by CaulderBenson

[AhsokaTanorules]

Please tell me Filoni had nothing to do with that abomination called the Force Awakens.

[CaulderBenson]

Please tell me Filoni had nothing to do with that abomination called the Force Awakens.

 

No, but neither did Disney. Which was my point. All the new stuff, including wiping the EU, was all Lucasfilm.

[DashaAdair]

Maul was mentioned quite a bit in the clone wars, several comics, etc.

 

But not in any of the movies, which was his point reference inquisitors and Jedi during the rebellion era. His argument was if they weren't in the movies they don't exist in post episode IV reality. Maul was never mentioned in the movies after his death. By his rationale, Maul should not be revived. Maul being mentioned anywhere else doesn't enter into it.

 

It's a type of hypocrisy that seems disingenuous. I think there is plenty of story space in the galaxy. If Maul is alive there is no reason for inquisitors and Jedi to make it past episode IV and beyond.

[MadDutchman]

But not in any of the movies, which was his point reference inquisitors and Jedi during the rebellion era. His argument was if they weren't in the movies they don't exist in post episode IV reality. Maul was never mentioned in the movies after his death. By his rationale, Maul should not be revived. Maul being mentioned anywhere else doesn't enter into it.

 

It's a type of hypocrisy that seems disingenuous. I think there is plenty of story space in the galaxy. If Maul is alive there is no reason for inquisitors and Jedi to make it past episode IV and beyond.

 

The reason it's more difficult for Inquisitors to be alive is they are servants of the Empire, right in the thick of things. It's a bit harder for them to be around during the movies in the role we see them.

 

It is quite possible though for Maul or Jedi (Filoni even states that Ahsoka being alive during the OT wouldn't be in contradiction of Yoda) and just be "elsewhere"

[Rhyltran]

But not in any of the movies, which was his point reference inquisitors and Jedi during the rebellion era. His argument was if they weren't in the movies they don't exist in post episode IV reality. Maul was never mentioned in the movies after his death. By his rationale, Maul should not be revived. Maul being mentioned anywhere else doesn't enter into it.

 

It's a type of hypocrisy that seems disingenuous. I think there is plenty of story space in the galaxy. If Maul is alive there is no reason for inquisitors and Jedi to make it past episode IV and beyond.

 

Oh, alright. I understand now.

[Darth_Advent]

Filoni also blocks TOR-era stuff from approaching canon because the idea of Sith spirits makes him butthurt. He's a flawed demigod at best.

[AhsokaTanorules]

Filoni also blocks TOR-era stuff from approaching canon because the idea of Sith spirits makes him butthurt. He's a flawed demigod at best.

 

Um...didn't Filoni WANT to put Revan in canon?

[Rhyltran]

Um...didn't Filoni WANT to put Revan in canon?

 

He wanted to put an illusion of Revan into Canon. That being said, I doubt it's Filoni that has a problem with force ghosts. Yes the "Darth Bane Spirit" wasn't really the spirit of Darth Bane in canon. It was an illusion.

[Darth_Advent]

Um...didn't Filoni WANT to put Revan in canon?

He wanted to introduce apparitions of Revan and Bane (in his orbalisk armor) to The Clone Wars, but George Lucas himself vetoed the idea because it bothered him to demonstrate Sith entities even appearing to have similar transcendence potential as Jedi.

That being said, I doubt it's Filoni that has a problem with force ghosts.

Oh no, he definitely has personal issues with it that stem from his self-identifying as the one who carries on with world building consistent with Lucas' sentiments. He was a guest on a podcast called "Rebel Force Radio" in 2014 where the fans asked him exactly that question. This was his answer:

 

“That’s the important thing that I would bring up. Sith don’t live on after death; that doesn’t happen. So, that’s kind of your big clue that that instigation, Bane’s apparition, those are things (and the priestesses say as much) they’ve been in control of, and have brought into being, much like the Father on Mortis brought things into being, different states of reality.”

 

And our prospects aren't helped that much by Pablo Hidalgo vetoing TOR content because anything that greys the Force, like Light Sith, triggers him. If it weren't for Leland Che, we probably wouldn't even have little bones thrown our way like the appearance of the Sith Empire's logo in the Lando Calrissian comic mini-series.

[Rhyltran]

He wanted to introduce apparitions of Revan and Bane (in his orbalisk armor) to The Clone Wars, but George Lucas himself vetoed the idea because it bothered him to demonstrate Sith entities even appearing to have similar transcendence potential as Jedi.

 

Oh no, he definitely has personal issues with it that stem from his self-identifying as the one who carries on with world building consistent with Lucas' sentiments. He was a guest on a podcast called "Rebel Force Radio" in 2014 where the fans asked him exactly that question. This was his answer:

 

“That’s the important thing that I would bring up. Sith don’t live on after death; that doesn’t happen. So, that’s kind of your big clue that that instigation, Bane’s apparition, those are things (and the priestesses say as much) they’ve been in control of, and have brought into being, much like the Father on Mortis brought things into being, different states of reality.”

 

And our prospects aren't helped that much by Pablo Hidalgo vetoing TOR content because anything that greys the Force, like Light Sith, triggers him. If it weren't for Leland Che, we probably wouldn't even have little bones thrown our way like the appearance of the Sith Empire's logo in the Lando Calrissian comic mini-series.

 

Except Filoni isn't calling all the shots. Did he say that because it's his personal opinion or it's how lucasfilm/disney/george (before the disney take over) wants the new canon to be? It's like talking to a producer or writer about Han and them claiming "He didn't shoot first." They're going to because that's what Lucas wanted it and sadly that's the "canon" of the situation now.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Rhyltran

[Audoucet]

I honestly do not know why some believed they would do otherwise. Why did some just assume that because the old EU was shifted to "Legends" status that it would all just be thrown away like yesterday's bath water?

 

To be clear, I'm happy to see SOME of it, AS THEY SEE FIT. Most of it sucks.

[Darth_Advent]

Except Filoni isn't calling all the shots. Did he say that because it's his personal opinion or it's how lucasfilm/disney/george (before the disney take over) wants the new canon to be? It's like talking to a producer or writer about Han and them claiming "He didn't shoot first." They're going to because that's what Lucas wanted it and sadly that's the "canon" of the situation now.

 

That wasn't the point. I'm arguing that he's not the lone voice advocating for good Legends content as far as I'm concerned thanks to that idea. Whether or not it's his preference or what he feels obligated to uphold out of some favor to George Lucas, 2014 was two years after the Disney purchase of LucasArts, so he had the chance to go against the old canon and declined. He may not be sitting on the story group, but he's basically the judge and jury for what goes into Rebels, which is probably the biggest, most popular continuing source of canon supplementary lore right now. Since the last season ended with a "Sith entity" speaking to Ezra in the abandoned temple/weapon, I might prove mistaken, which would be nice. I'm not expecting it not to be some trick of the Dark Side, though.

 

For the record, I'm pretty sure that Lucas reneged on Han shooting after Greedo and even started wearing the T-Shirt with "Han Shot First" on it to demonstrate that. The explanation he gave for changing it to make Han less morally ambiguous had less to do with is personal moral compass and more to do with him and his advisors being afraid that Star Wars would be re-rated for more mature audiences after the US and/or UK (don't remember which) revised their standards for rating movie content.

[Rhyltran]

That wasn't the point. I'm arguing that he's not the lone voice advocating for good Legends content as far as I'm concerned thanks to that idea. Whether or not it's his preference or what he feels obligated to uphold out of some favor to George Lucas, 2014 was two years after the Disney purchase of LucasArts, so he had the chance to go against the old canon and declined. He may not be sitting on the story group, but he's basically the judge and jury for what goes into Rebels, which is probably the biggest, most popular continuing source of canon supplementary lore right now. Since the last season ended with a "Sith entity" speaking to Ezra in the abandoned temple/weapon, I might prove mistaken, which would be nice. I'm not expecting it not to be some trick of the Dark Side, though.

 

For the record, I'm pretty sure that Lucas reneged on Han shooting after Greedo and even started wearing the T-Shirt with "Han Shot First" on it to demonstrate that. The explanation he gave for changing it to make Han less morally ambiguous had less to do with is personal moral compass and more to do with him and his advisors being afraid that Star Wars would be re-rated for more mature audiences after the US and/or UK (don't remember which) revised their standards for rating movie content.

 

Except he isn't judge and jury. That's the problem and my point. If he wanted to put in Sith spirits and make them part of the new canon but Disney/Lucasfilms said no, he'd be powerless to do anything about it.

[Darth_Advent]

Except he isn't judge and jury. That's the problem and my point. If he wanted to put in Sith spirits and make them part of the new canon but Disney/Lucasfilms said no, he'd be powerless to do anything about it.

 

Pretty much is, actually. Disney doesn't micromanage the canon of LucasArts and the Rebels team are allowed to do nearly whatever they want unless the story group discovers some inconsistency.

[Rhyltran]

Pretty much is, actually. Disney doesn't micromanage the canon of LucasArts and the Rebels team are allowed to do nearly whatever they want unless the story group discovers some inconsistency.

 

Inconsistency or something that interferes with future plans as laid out by the story group. Filoni is not in charge of the story group and in the end they have say over what Filoni wants and doesn't want. Let's put it another way. If someone else was in charge of rebels but decided they wanted Sith Spirits to be Canon it's very possible (and very likely) Lucasfilm story group can step in and tell you "No, we don't want that." There's a reason Canon was nuked and Filoni can't add or take away things that are going to be part of the new canon that the story group doesn't approve of. They do want Star Wars (the new canon) to be consistent. As you mentioned above, they will step in if there is inconsistencies, and that's the problem. It's clear the story group itself doesn't approve of the idea of Sith force spirits and the like.

[Darth_Advent]

It's clear the story group itself doesn't approve of the idea of Sith force spirits and the like.

 

I honestly don't know what the Story Group's opinion collectively on the matter is or even if the same 4 people are chairing it still. I've just read from sources proven reliable in the past that Hidalgo seems to have the most pull out of all of them in resurrecting concepts from Legends and he puts his foot down on anything that threatens the moral dichotomy of the Force in the same way that KotOR II: The Sith Lords' story tried.

 

I'm more optimistic and doubtful of my judgement now, though, because I just re-watched the final two episodes of Rebels season two and noticed something pretty sweet:

 

Go back and watch the scene in part 1 where Ezra, Asoka, and Kanan are getting their bearings along the subterranean path leading to the Sith temple. There are statues all around the beaten path of humanoid figures cut with rough edges bowing their heads at the neck with backs erect at attention. They look virtually identical to the statues carved out of the native rock on Korriban in TOR.

 

http://screencrush.com/files/2016/01/STAR-WARS-REBELS-18.jpg

 

They were also shown in the Clone Wars season 6 when Yoda journeyed to "Morraband"

 

http://www.starwarspost.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/star-wars-clone-wars-yoda-moraband.jpg

 

Mere Easter Eggs? Perhaps, but they're rays of hope as well!

[MadDutchman]

I honestly don't know what the Story Group's opinion collectively on the matter is or even if the same 4 people are chairing it still. I've just read from sources proven reliable in the past that Hidalgo seems to have the most pull out of all of them in resurrecting concepts from Legends and he puts his foot down on anything that threatens the moral dichotomy of the Force in the same way that KotOR II: The Sith Lords' story tried.

 

I'm more optimistic and doubtful of my judgement now, though, because I just re-watched the final two episodes of Rebels season two and noticed something pretty sweet:

 

Go back and watch the scene in part 1 where Ezra, Asoka, and Kanan are getting their bearings along the subterranean path leading to the Sith temple. There are statues all around the beaten path of humanoid figures cut with rough edges bowing their heads at the neck with backs erect at attention. They look virtually identical to the statues carved out of the native rock on Korriban in TOR.

 

http://screencrush.com/files/2016/01/STAR-WARS-REBELS-18.jpg

 

They were also shown in the Clone Wars season 6 when Yoda journeyed to "Morraband"

 

http://www.starwarspost.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/star-wars-clone-wars-yoda-moraband.jpg

 

Mere Easter Eggs? Perhaps, but they're rays of hope as well!

 

Considering the hammerhead ships the Rebels got from Leia, Its pretty obvious Filoni has great respect for the KOTOR/TOR era and likes to draw stuff in as he can.

 

I suspect these kinds of tidbits will continue as we go forward, especially with the Sith Holocron likely to play a big role in Season 3

[Darth_Advent]

Considering the hammerhead ships the Rebels got from Leia, Its pretty obvious Filoni has great respect for the KOTOR/TOR era and likes to draw stuff in as he can.

 

He's shown respect for the Republic side of the equation with that dropping in the Old Republic era Jedi Order insignia, but this stuff on Malachor is the first time the Imperial elements have been repurposed since George Lucas mangled Korriban.

 

I get the feeling that people theorizing the Sith Presence was Darth Traya, though, are misguided. I'll eat my die-cast TIE fighter paperweight if they throw in that much fanservice.

[MadDutchman]

He's shown respect for the Republic side of the equation with that dropping in the Old Republic era Jedi Order insignia, but this stuff on Malachor is the first time the Imperial elements have been repurposed since George Lucas mangled Korriban.

 

I get the feeling that people theorizing the Sith Presence was Darth Traya, though, are misguided. I'll eat my die-cast TIE fighter paperweight if they throw in that much fanservice.

 

Filoni has said he does have a name and backstory for the Sith Presence, but wouldn't reveal a name. I agree it is highly unlikely to be Traya/Kreia

[Rashenari]

Kotor 2 tried to deconstruct star wars morality and the force in a way that likely wouldn't have been green-lit if lucasfilm/arts hadn't been busy with producing star wars films at the time. Darth Traya was at the absolute heart of that idea.

 

Any canonizing there if it happens, will probably just be the name, and nothing more.

[phalczen]

Its been a while since I glanced at this thread. I also apologize if this comment isn't new. However, considering the construction of the temple and its two-person key system, it would imply the temple is after the establishment of the Rule of Two, and similarly imply that the Sith presence there would be one from after that point in time. Perhaps Darth Zannah? In any event, the fact that the temple's security features implicitly acknowledge the Rule of Two seems to make it less likely it would be Darth Traya's spirit residing there, regardless of whether Hidalgo or Filoni respect the old republic Legends material.

 

One could counter-argue that Darth Traya's spirit was drawn to that temple/battleship simply because of its strength in the Dark Side, not because she was privy to the Rule of Two. But in Legends we've seen far more evidence of Sith spirits being tied to certain planets (usually their last ones), rather than being able to freely wander like the Light Side Force Ghosts. That being said, I haven't finished the Bane trilogy, but apparently he died on Ambria, yet, his canonical appearance is on Moraband/Korriban. Is that more of a testament to Bane's power in the Dark Side, or more of a testament to the lack of our understanding of how Force Ghosts are bound?

EDIT: or, is it merely a construct of Yoda's vision, rather than Darth Bane's presence, and more related to the strength of Moraband in the dark side as a dark side temptation for Yoda, rather than the power of Bane's spirit or where its bound?

Edited May 27, 2016 by phalczen