Mercs are crap in pvp.

[Dalminius]

Nuff said. Fix it bioware.

[venomlash]

3 years and 4 months after launch, you realize that Mandos/Mercs aren't good in competitive PvP, and that the Devs should do something about it. While I agree with the sentiment, this is old hat, and you don't lay out any particular suggestions.

The Devs aren't sitting on PvP buffs to the class, just waiting for someone to come along and tell them that we need them. You're more likely to get results if you offer constructive criticism, like suggesting a particular improvement to be made (e.g. building damage reduction into Adrenaline Rush) or even just identifying a particular issue (e.g. we don't have a way to mitigate burst under focus).

[ForceWelder]

3 years and 4 months after launch, you realize that Mandos/Mercs aren't good in competitive PvP, and that the Devs should do something about it. While I agree with the sentiment, this is old hat, and you don't lay out any particular suggestions.

The Devs aren't sitting on PvP buffs to the class, just waiting for someone to come along and tell them that we need them. You're more likely to get results if you offer constructive criticism, like suggesting a particular improvement to be made (e.g. building damage reduction into Adrenaline Rush) or even just identifying a particular issue (e.g. we don't have a way to mitigate burst under focus).

 

Although I do agree with you that issues with these classes are old news, I don't think the devs are listening. As you have pointed out people have been complaining about this class issue since we have had arenas, and the most we have gotten is small, yet subtle changes to a class that does little to allievate the issue in 4 v 4.

 

Frankly, the Merc / Mando forums have gotten stale. Not because people have run out of things to say, but because people have gotten tired of reporting the same issues time and time again with no response one way or the other from the Dev team. People have made suggetions. Many of them identical to ones suggested three days, three weeks, three months, and practically three years previously. At some point you go from starting a conversation to realizing that you are just talking to a blank wall and the conversation is completely one sided.

 

And if you go to the PVP forum, it is even worse there. I swear it feels like that forum is completely neglected by the Devs for review. Say what you want or how you want it, and even if reported, no action is taken. At least if say something inappropriate in the other areas, the Devs will respond if in no other way than to say you are out of line for the comments you made. But in the PVP forum ... you will be hard pressed to find any response from any Dev regardless of how many pages you go back through.

 

My point is if there is a way to give proper feedback, I have yet to see it. Send in a ticket and you get an automated respone back ... two weeks later. Give ideas in the forums ... no response at all. With this Dev team, it just seems like unless it impacts the economy or the cartel market, they truly don't care at all.

[steveerkcanjerk]

mercs are not crap in pvp if you know how to play. A good merc can be a ***** to kill. what mercs suck its ranked pvp. It is just extremely tough you have to be watching your procs, your dcd while watching their procs and their dcd. For example i play io spec how to deal with a jugg. You see enraged defence pop concusion missle kite when it wears off return and keep fighting. saber refletc goes up push the jugg away use your remaining cc. and you should be able to kill him fast using your heals at this point. you just have to be very aware of your positioning, your enemies positioning, and their dcd. you can burn ops and sins down really quick in pvp if you know when to shoot them and when not to. This may sound like L2P but i am sorry, you wont believe how many times you see merc standing next to node with melee all over the place. Also our DCD suck but if you manage them right, you can inflict some serious pain and take quite a beating. Again i am speaking of wz 8v8 not ranked becuase 2 sin team with tank and healer will win almost 90% of the time if they are really any good.

[ForceWelder]

mercs are not crap in pvp if you know how to play. A good merc can be a ***** to kill. what mercs suck its ranked pvp. It is just extremely tough you have to be watching your procs, your dcd while watching their procs and their dcd. For example i play io spec how to deal with a jugg. You see enraged defence pop concusion missle kite when it wears off return and keep fighting. saber refletc goes up push the jugg away use your remaining cc. and you should be able to kill him fast using your heals at this point. you just have to be very aware of your positioning, your enemies positioning, and their dcd. you can burn ops and sins down really quick in pvp if you know when to shoot them and when not to. This may sound like L2P but i am sorry, you wont believe how many times you see merc standing next to node with melee all over the place. Also our DCD suck but if you manage them right, you can inflict some serious pain and take quite a beating. Again i am speaking of wz 8v8 not ranked becuase 2 sin team with tank and healer will win almost 90% of the time if they are really any good.

 

"... a good merc can be a ***** to kill...."

 

Please enlighten me on how you do it. Because in my ranked matches, I get no heals, no guard, and no taunts. In other words no support from my fellow team mates. So my game starts with a pull or a stun followed by another stun and me desperately trying to save myself. If the class had a focus break or some outside heals to give us a few seconds of breathing room, I might agree with you. But on your own with only other DPS in rank, and you have a very short match.

[RangKer]

I partially blame BioWare for the end results of Mercs / Commandos in PVP. I Largely blame the player base that once, a long time ago had no clue on how to use their abilities properly and demanded outlandish nerfs for no good reason. And still to this day, the same people are crying for nerfs on the same classes.

 

Like http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=138343

Which was the start of the annual Merc / Commando Nerfings.

Edited April 14, 2015 by RangKer

[Peachbrah]

its a byproduct of their op survivability in pve

[Icykill_]

3 years and 4 months after launch, you realize that Mandos/Mercs aren't good in competitive PvP, and that the Devs should do something about it. While I agree with the sentiment, this is old hat, and you don't lay out any particular suggestions.

The Devs aren't sitting on PvP buffs to the class, just waiting for someone to come along and tell them that we need them. You're more likely to get results if you offer constructive criticism, like suggesting a particular improvement to be made (e.g. building damage reduction into Adrenaline Rush) or even just identifying a particular issue (e.g. we don't have a way to mitigate burst under focus).

 

We supplied them with lots and lots of constructive suggestions on the PTS for the 3.1.2 patch... They created a whole thread for us to do so... They didn't implement one suggestion

The only thing Mercs need is a little more survivability... Everything else is fine with them... Maybe give them the same hydraulic override speed and utilities options the PTs have or increase the instant self heal to something decent... I do more self healing on my Jugg and Sin than I can on my Merc

Basically they just need to fix it... We've provided all the suggestions and feed back already... I'm pretty sure that's why the OP didn't feel he needed to supply anymore

[Icykill_]

I partially blame BioWare for the end results of Mercs / Commandos in PVP. I Largely blame the player base that once, a long time ago had no clue on how to use their abilities properly and demanded outlandish nerfs for no good reason. And still to this day, the same people are crying for nerfs on the same classes.

 

Like http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=138343

Which was the start of the annual Merc / Commando Nerfings.

 

Bad players always call for Nerfing others... It doesn't matter the class... Occasionally there may be a legitimate concern because a class is slightly OP... But most of the time it's because they can't play their own class properly and haven't bothered to learn how to counter class "x"

[RangKer]

Bad players always call for Nerfing others... It doesn't matter the class... Occasionally there may be a legitimate concern because a class is slightly OP... But most of the time it's because they can't play their own class properly and haven't bothered to learn how to counter class "x"

While I understand and agree with you. The end result was caused by the very vocal terrible players pushing and flooding the forums against Mercs and Commandos. All three ACs got gutted cause of Tracer / Grav. They even Nerfed the Visual Effects of Grav and Tracer too cause it appeared "threatening."

 

Think about it. A 1.5 second cast ability that could be easily avoided and locked down by stealth classes was cried about by terrible SINS and Shadows. Mercs / Mandos have suffered since late 2011 - early 2012 cause of it. The same people who called for that unwarranted nerf are the ones who brought on the IA / Smug nerfs and Mara / Sent nerfs while seeking to buff the already balanced classes.

 

Personally, I believe BW should make Mercs / Mandos the same as they were at launch to 2012 right now; which would make them equal to, if not just under pre nerf Sorcs / Sages by meer 1-2% in PvP and PvE content.

 

Mercs and Mandos are very unique class concept that should be reaping the benefits, not sitting through 4 years worth of punishment.

[venomlash]

In fairness, Grav spam WAS overpowered in the early days. Bad Commandos could mash the one button and come away with big numbers in PvP, which made the spec FotM for people who can't handle more than a 3-button rotation. The response to that was the correct one; they took damage out of Grav Round and put it into Demo Round and Full Auto (Curtain of Fire proc) instead.

Commandos being gimped in PvP has been the case since launch; in 1.0, we were the only healer class with no battle rez and the only class of any sort without an interrupt. The overpowered damage of Grav spam only masked the gimpiness of the class, and removing it didn't cause the problem, just reveal the ugly truth.

[RangKer]

In fairness, Grav spam WAS overpowered in the early days. Bad Commandos could mash the one button and come away with big numbers in PvP, which made the spec FotM for people who can't handle more than a 3-button rotation. The response to that was the correct one; they took damage out of Grav Round and put it into Demo Round and Full Auto (Curtain of Fire proc) instead.

Commandos being gimped in PvP has been the case since launch; in 1.0, we were the only healer class with no battle rez and the only class of any sort without an interrupt. The overpowered damage of Grav spam only masked the gimpiness of the class, and removing it didn't cause the problem, just reveal the ugly truth.

Pulling Big numbers vs the main objective of the WZ. Sure, Grav / Trace spamm pulled big numbers. No different from FStorm spam, but through out the history of MMOs - continuous spamming of one ability only proves who is bad and who know how to function properly with their team.

 

Grav x3 combined with HIBolt Proper Cell management was vastly more devastating. But the issue was; back then, the game was still with in the early days and people were learning the different classes. The class was built around a strong builder that used a finisher for maximum result.

A Class + spec combination that was based around long cast times. It was clearly and fairly logical for Grav/Tracer to hit hard. The lack of mobility was very and clearly apparent. Despite having Heavy Armor; it was truly a glass cannon, or more accurately; a Howitzer. Barely any movement. and if they were moving, they are pulling at best, less then mediocre damage. When stationary, they shined. Even more so when left alone to free cast willingly.

 

The complaints about them wasn't really about their damage or burst; just that bad players who wanted to pretend to be WoW Rogues from 2004 played early Sins / Shadows refusing to utilize their functionality and abilities to shut them down.

 

That classic complaint thread really translates "Nerf <X> class cause I refuse to learn my class that can obviously counter <X> class with some skill, but will put more time and effort into crying about <X> class instead." Merca / Commandos got an unwarranted nerf because of the inability of people refusing to learn and understand early on in the game's life.

 

F.Stomr/Quake was op, it needed to be fixed cause of the additional features (such as the snares) to it while hitting and critting more, and was greatly abused more then Tracer / Grav ever was and has been; for a much longer time frame as well.

 

BW is at fault for listening to the wrong player base. While the Player base back then are and still the main reason why Merc / Commandos are in their current state.

[Transcendent]

You're more likely to get results if you offer constructive criticism, like suggesting a particular improvement to be made (e.g. building damage reduction into Adrenaline Rush) or even just identifying a particular issue (e.g. we don't have a way to mitigate burst under focus).

 

We tried that during the PTS for 3.1.2

 

We gained Chaff Flare buffs and Kolto Buffs, neither of which did anything to contend with the recurring issue most Merc / Mando players were giving feedback on, the ability to survive under focus.

 

Sadly, constructive isn't going to cut it with the combat team. We were only up for 3.1.2 because we kicked off on the PTS for 3.1.1 about nothing for Merc / Mando players. The only way this class is going to get what it needs, is if we all kick off on the next PTS and be bloody blunt about things.

[steveerkcanjerk]

"... a good merc can be a ***** to kill...."

 

Please enlighten me on how you do it. Because in my ranked matches, I get no heals, no guard, and no taunts. In other words no support from my fellow team mates. So my game starts with a pull or a stun followed by another stun and me desperately trying to save myself. If the class had a focus break or some outside heals to give us a few seconds of breathing room, I might agree with you. But on your own with only other DPS in rank, and you have a very short match.

 

couple things wrong here with what you just said please read all words in someones post before responding to it.

1. i said mercs are not crap in pvp but in ranked they suck, 90% of pvp gamemodes, maps are outside of ranked.

2. in ranked it is tough but if your team is not giving you heals and putting guard on you when they know you are being focused well that is not your fault get a better team and if you are solo quing oh well deal with it.

3. in 8v8 it takes a bit of skill but you need to manage your dcds right and there is alot more that goes into it and i am not going to take the time to write it out. (in my io spec i can take a dude from 100% health down to 45-40% with just the start of my rotation.

4. yeah you are squishy but guess what in a 8v8 a melee hops on you kite into the line of sight of your teammates and their aoe i like to go near a sage or healer so he gets scared oh melee near me and helps out. these are tactics a merc must adapt to survive. some classes are a dont touch for example powertechs especially tank spec powertech you need to wait until they use their slows and time your hydraulic overrides properly.

5. this may not be about this thread specifically but here it goes. Mercs and even snipers will always suck in arenas because there is no where to go. on other maps you can move tactically around and move into positions that give you advantage. no amount of oh ***** buttons will save you becuase the maps are favored for sins, ops, powertech melee in general. if they gave us more surviability we would become fotm trust me we will becuase with seconds i can get a guys down below 50% health.

[Floplag]

OK... im actually rather tired of generalizations... We do not suck in PVP, period.

We can do a lot of damage and have some nice utility, what we do not have is the defensive skills to match.

We have an extreme weakness under focused pressure, which is not unique to us.. what is unique is the fact that we can do nothing about it and will die faster than any other class by a wide margin.

This weakness is there in 4s or 8s... only moreso obvious in 4s as 4s tend to use a more focused fire approach.. it isnt unique to ranked, its just more obvious there.

 

if you are like me and have a sparkling personality (im an a-hole), then you will notice it even more as the members of my fan club seem to think they get danish for killing me so i typically draw a crowd regardless of the format

Edited April 15, 2015 by Floplag

[DomBah]

The problem with the commando / merc pvp weakness lasts from start of the game.

The only buffs this class gets was 2.0, 2.6 (healer) and 2.7 (dd). But even then it was only to make them viable in regs, they stay the overall worst pvp class at all.

 

After i first heard about 3.0 and the new system with new balance overall i hoped that this time it get better, that was not the case.

I have no real hope anymore and thats the reason i only have an abo from time to time (2-4 month a year) and quit in a few days already after just one month this year.

The combat team can not be so stupid to not recognize the problems, this was predictable since announcement.

And then this: Even after 5 month 3.x no healer set works full on republic side!

Are they just incompetent or is it purpose, i can not other then to realize that this is intended, perhaps i'am wrong, time will tell with the next patches.

Who is the greater fool, the ones who are responsible for the this easy to fix massive balance problems or the ones who is paying them for do this work, with buying cartel coins and subscriptions

 

No matter i post the problems how i see them:

All specs need an anti-gangrape ability

DD specs need much better off-heals

Healer spec need some sort of cc protection to heal better if stunned and interrupted (including kick) or just more healing with procc instant healings / better kolto bomb and traumprobe, through its a caster and channel class, easy fodder for shadow, vanguard and guardian

Edited April 15, 2015 by DomBah

[Floplag]

No matter i post the problems how i see them:

All specs need an anti-gangrape ability

DD specs need much better off-heals

Healer spec need some sort of cc protection to heal better if stunned and interrupted (including kick) or just more healing with procc instant healings / better kolto bomb and traumprobe, through its a caster and channel class, easy fodder for shadow, vanguard and guardian

 

as for anti focus, this can be done by mitigation as well, see PTs, which can take far more damage before dying. i would actually not hate that either as it would give me time to use what i have more.

 

the healing issue is another oddity all together.. they gutted our ability to heal in dps spec, but didnt do the same to other dps specs that could heal, specifically sorcs. one of the things that would be incredibly helpful is taking the cooldown off one of them as the sorcs get to enjoy.

[Haystak]

In fairness, Grav spam WAS overpowered in the early days. Bad Commandos could mash the one button and come away with big numbers in PvP, which made the spec FotM for people who can't handle more than a 3-button rotation. The response to that was the correct one; they took damage out of Grav Round and put it into Demo Round and Full Auto (Curtain of Fire proc) instead.

Commandos being gimped in PvP has been the case since launch; in 1.0, we were the only healer class with no battle rez and the only class of any sort without an interrupt. The overpowered damage of Grav spam only masked the gimpiness of the class, and removing it didn't cause the problem, just reveal the ugly truth.

 

Wasnt their a healer hybrid that was pretty awesome for a while. Like you could heal and do damage near what a full dps or healer could do. Think somebody nicknamed it "*something* parakeet"(dont as me, I didnt name it)

[diadox]

Wasnt their a healer hybrid that was pretty awesome for a while. Like you could heal and do damage near what a full dps or healer could do. Think somebody nicknamed it "*something* parakeet"(dont as me, I didnt name it)

 

The parakeet hybrid was a PT tank/pyro hybrid.

[DomBah]

as for anti focus, this can be done by mitigation as well, see PTs, which can take far more damage before dying. i would actually not hate that either as it would give me time to use what i have more.

 

the healing issue is another oddity all together.. they gutted our ability to heal in dps spec, but didnt do the same to other dps specs that could heal, specifically sorcs. one of the things that would be incredibly helpful is taking the cooldown off one of them as the sorcs get to enjoy.

Yeah, there is no need for a new ability, just modify exists. But we have to remember that the pt has up to 2 stunbreaker and an aoe stun, which is in pressure situations very useful.

 

For off-healing i think removing of bacta to give kolto bomb or medical probe or traumaprobe would be fine.

Just removing cd is logical problematic for me, question then would be: why dps bacta / advanced m.probe versions better then in the heal spec?

Other way of course could be a passive that lowered the cd on bacta and / or a.m.p when mercommando gets damaged, i would say 1.0 (a.m.p) to 2.0 (bacta) sec, can only occur every 1.5 sec. But then again, even its a passive that indirectly improve, at last this would be better versions for dps then for heal spec.

And, and, and..........

 

There are thousand ways to fix all merc / commando pvp probs without making them op in pve and it's not about the output.

But there is simply no interest from bioware to do this.

[ForceWelder]

I agree with what I am seeing here. We have lots of utilities at our disposal. What we lack is the time to use those abilities. All heals weak ... shield weak ... CC all single target (except knockback) ... and then you still have to find time to use decoy.

 

No escape ... No "Oh $#%$" ability (unless you count our one heal back to 40% as the "oh $#$%") ...

 

Without some form of serious damage reduction we simply don't live long enough to use those utilities and return fire.

 

There is far too much stealth 4 v 4 and our ability to detect it is lame on the best of matches. The only chance we have is to pop our shield prior to the first stun so that it will combine with our stun 33% damage reduction (assuming we select that utility). Otherwise a mear 33% reduction in damage is nothing when focused on. You are already down to half health unless you CC break the first stun and pop the bubble before the second stun hits you. And when it is more than one opposing player versus you, the odds are not in your favor that you will pop your shield before the second stun. Or if the opposing players are smart, they won't even apply a second stun. The bubble damage reduction is less than the stun damage reduction so they can do more damage to you without the stun. You just get more time to fire back.

 

The point is when you have to rely on more than one ability stacking to do less than what other classes can do with one click ... you have a problem.

Edited April 16, 2015 by ForceWelder

[Floplag]

Yeah, there is no need for a new ability, just modify exists. But we have to remember that the pt has up to 2 stunbreaker and an aoe stun, which is in pressure situations very useful.

 

For off-healing i think removing of bacta to give kolto bomb or medical probe or traumaprobe would be fine.

Just removing cd is logical problematic for me, question then would be: why dps bacta / advanced m.probe versions better then in the heal spec?

Other way of course could be a passive that lowered the cd on bacta and / or a.m.p when mercommando gets damaged, i would say 1.0 (a.m.p) to 2.0 (bacta) sec, can only occur every 1.5 sec. But then again, even its a passive that indirectly improve, at last this would be better versions for dps then for heal spec.

And, and, and..........

 

There are thousand ways to fix all merc / commando pvp probs without making them op in pve and it's not about the output.

But there is simply no interest from bioware to do this.

 

indeed there are many options.. i myself posted a list of about 7 or 8 and didn't even include mitigation options in that list... and none of those items would affect our damage in any way.

 

everyone knows the problem whether you play a merc, or dont. as mercs we know, everyone else knows to target us first, apprently the only ones that dont know it are Bio.

 

the bottom line though is Bio needs to do it. They post these threads and claim to read them but for some reason are ignoring the most obvious issue in the game in lieu of surprises for classes that didnt need help. To them Dec Sins having an issue being kited is apparently far more important than all mercs having a problem getting globaled, lol

[Floplag]

I agree with what I am seeing here. We have lots of utilities at our disposal. What we lack is the time to use those abilities. All heals weak ... shield weak ... CC all single target (except knockback) ... and then you still have to find time to use decoy.

 

No escape ... No "Oh $#%$" ability (unless you count our one heal back to 40% as the "oh $#$%") ...

 

Without some form of serious damage reduction we simply don't live long enough to use those utilities and return fire.

 

There is far too much stealth 4 v 4 and our ability to detect it is lame on the best of matches. The only chance we have is to pop our shield prior to the first stun so that it will combine with our stun 33% damage reduction (assuming we select that utility). Otherwise a mear 33% reduction in damage is nothing when focused on. You are already down to half health unless you CC break the first stun and pop the bubble before the second stun hits you. And when it is more than one opposing player versus you, the odds are not in your favor that you will pop your shield before the second stun. Or if the opposing players are smart, they won't even apply a second stun. The bubble damage reduction is less than the stun damage reduction so they can do more damage to you without the stun. You just get more time to fire back.

 

The point is when you have to rely on more than one ability stacking to do less than what other classes can do with one click ... you have a problem.

 

The problem isnt really the stealth.. i like the variety of classes and methods.. makes you think and adapt... i like trying to outguess them and pull them out and see the look in thier eyes, lol...

 

the problem right now to me is far simpler, balance.... too few classes dominating the top of the charts and to wide a gap between them and the rest of the pack.

[KnightTyler]

I've been thinking of a way to help Commando's/Merc's under focus fire, without making them OP or effecting PvE survivability. Here's what I have got so far (names are just placeholders):

 

 

• Epinephrine Cell/Epinephrine Infusion- passive trainable at lvl 59 that causes Adrenaline Rush/Kolto Overload to also hinder targets that deal damage to you while it is active for (X) seconds, preventing the use of high mobility actions and escapes such as charges, vanishes, and speed boosts.
   
  Or
   
   
  
• Commitment/Dedication - passive trainable at lvl 59 that causes Hold the Line/Hydraulic Overrides to hinder targets that deal damage to you while it is active, preventing the use of high mobility actions and escapes such as charges, vanishes, and speed boosts. Lasts (X) seconds. Additionally, while stunned you heal for (2%) of your maximum health every second.
  

 

I prefer the Adrenaline Rush/Kolto Overload version, because it would make Adrenaline Rush/Kolto Overload more effective as a defensive cool down. The hinder effect is perfect to fit the Commando/Merc theme, considering they are the only ones with Electro Net and it creates a choice for the enemies. Do you keep attacking the mando/merc, possibly preventing the use of your own mobility/escapes, all the while the mando/merc heals? Or do you drop focus on the mando/merc until Adrenaline Rush/Kolto Overload is over? It is more potent against melee classes, especially when combined with Hold the Line/Hydraulic Overrides, but it also poses a risk for ranged classes who may come under focus and not be able to use their escapes since they attacked the mando/merc.

 

Thoughts? Opinions? Not a Commando/Merc main here, but I do play all classes and I want to see each class have fun and be viable in all content, without becoming FOTM.

Edited April 16, 2015 by KnightTyler

[Idaho-D]

Nuff said. Fix it bioware.

 

QFT, Mercs and Commandos are crap in PvP and PvE.

 

I un-subbed, re-subbed, but am un-subbing for good now over it. BW had no clue on how players were enjoying the gameplay of the Merc and Commando and changed them into something quite unlike anything they had been previously.

 

In short give my Commando and Merc back their ability to self-heal in the difficult PvE and I guess PvP battles when not in the Medic role. You stole that from them in 3.0 and now give it back. That was a very underhanded move. To ruin my two highest level characters that I had worked to level since day one of SWtoR. You will not be forgiven for this it was a bone-headed thing to do. My Commando survived by heals in between the attacks and now it just dies everytime a tough Boss battle comes up. When I see stuff like this happen it makes me feel like why am I even wasting my time on this game? Oh yeah, play your character for 3 years and then we'll ruin it, ha-ha, jokes on you. But it's not, it's on you BW. It shows your lack of integrity and honor.