Why I feel the current SM difficulty is a good design choice

[Terro_Fett]

There should be challenging, rewarding content for all levels of players. Content you can progress through, learn from, and feel accomplished when you finish it.

 

For the upper echelon of raiders that can be Nightmare content. Something for the best of the best to grind their teeth on that pushes them to their limits.

 

For the average, good raiding team, hard modes are well tuned. Over the course of the content cycle they slowly progress, boss after boss. Many of these guilds, months in, are sitting at 8/10 or slightly less. Aiming for those full clears is a goal to strive for in this skill bracket.

 

Then you have those who are not hard mode capable. For them there is story mode. Oddly enough however, there seems to be the expectation that these should be one night full clear type of deals. Doesn't it make more sense that players who are at the story mode level should experience the same progression experience in SM that Hard Mode players experience in HM, etc? If your in this group then story mode is your tier, your progression, and it should be treated as such. In this regard I feel it does a very good job

Edited April 10, 2015 by Terro_Fett

[Methoxa]

Doesn't it make more sense that players who are at the story mode level should experience the same progression experience in SM that Hard Mode players experience in HM, etc

 

Not for them, because they want instant bis gear because they pay money.

 

I personally however totally support your idea.

[bdatt]

If the new SM content difficulty maintains or increases paying subscribers, you are correct. I'm not confident that is the case.

 

Plus, I can speculate with 99% confidence BWs current thought process is to eliminate NiM development and moving that difficulty to HM. Hopefully that would mean new SM/HM tier faster than previous tiers came out, so content doesn't get as stale as 14 month old DF/DP.

[FerkWork]

If it keeps players playing then it's fine. If the difficulty causes players to stop subbing in mass then that might be a problem. Whether what's right, fair, logical, or whatever makes no difference. The only question that will effect BW decision making is whether this brings in customers or loses them.

 

Personally, I think bosses in SM should be consistent or progressive difficulty in an encounter not unbalanced. But I digress.

 

Also, why do we need another thread on this when there's like 5 other threads on this.

Edited April 10, 2015 by FerkWork

[ArchangelLBC]

Question: Are you actually such a player? Most of the players I know who aren't hard mode capable don't want to bang their heads on the wall for weeks. If they were willing or able to make that kind of investment in time and energy they would be hard mode capable. The game mechanics simply aren't that hard.

 

Again, in my experience these are players who like playing with others, like seeing the bosses and the story, but absolutely don't want to be wiping a lot or take weeks with the same group to clear content.

 

The thing to keep in mind is that players who don't do hard mode aren't simply less skilled versions of the hard mode players. Different people want different things from the game. Some want content to chew on that makes them push themselves and get better. Some people just want to log on and play with their friends. They aren't in it for the sense of accomplishment, they're in it to unwind, and there's nothing wrong with that approach.

 

For many of those players, they were content not doing hard mode, but were happy to join, and even be carried through, story modes. Log on, faceroll stuff, joke around in ts/mumble, hey some gear. Good times. For many of them, especially those with very sporadic availability times, spending your one free night in two weeks wiping to underlurker isn't all that fun.

 

Now, a lot of what you said does apply to hard mode capable players who have no business in nightmare. But for story mode I disagree.

[Preston_Violent]

Question: Most of the players I know who aren't hard mode capable don't want to bang their heads on the wall for weeks.

 

Exactly. That's why the f****g underlucker on story needs to be nerfed. A few more weeks of this fun breaker and full realization that normally you can't just go and do the ToS weekly and people won't bother. Well, many don't bother already, it's clear from the yet another population dropping. Get it in your head that casual players are the same players who keep this game afloat and are the same players who are fine with 2nd best gear but who aren't fine (generally) with wiping over and over and over and over at the same boss.

You, challenge lovers and fans of learning game mechanics can wipe all you want on hm's and future nim's...but regular players will just say "f**k it" and quit. In the end, everyone will suffer.

[venomlash]

The trouble with not being able to clear a story mode in one night's work (assuming the group's not a bunch of progression raiders) is that it discourages PUGging. You remember how hard it is to get a full Ops group together, even with the option of Group Finder? Now imagine you're trying to get the same group together twice in one week, just to be able to clear the instance.

 

Without the coordinating framework of a serious PvE guild, it's very hard to get a group together because most people who aren't serious raiders, who just want to spend an evening doing some 8man content, aren't going to be motivated to join a group if it's just going to conk out after wiping three times on the second boss. I'm in a super-casual semi-active guild, and I've been a groupfinder hero since groupfinder came out in 1.3. I'll happily help babysit a crowd of newbs through an Operation, but I haven't set foot in an Op since 3.0 rolled, simply because the difficulty of story mode Ops drives down interest. (Meaning that I don't actively try to PUG Ops any more because I don't feel like beating my head against a wall for three hours just to down one boss, and that when I'm puttering around looking for something to do, there are no other people trying to PUG Ops whose nascent groups I might join.)

 

Teal deer: making story mode Ops too difficult makes it nearly impossible to get a PUG together, driving away casual and semi-casual players at endgame, for whom story modes are ostensibly intended.

Edited April 10, 2015 by venomlash

[Soul_of_Flames]

I absolutely disagree. Story mode should not be challenging even to the worst of players.

 

Hard mode flashpoints should be more challenging than a story mode operation.

 

Hard and nightmare exist for the challenge. Story mode exists for the story and as a means to simply pass time when there is nothing going on.

 

And to the people saying "oh they just want free gear."

-First of all, it's not free. You still need to go week, by week. Toon by toon. So it still takes a while to just get the tokens, let alone attempt to min-max.

-Secondly, the challenge comes when you hit hard mode. So who cares how people achieved BiS 192 gear? It's irrelevant because the real goal is 198 gear.

-Thirdly, it keeps the wheel going. People are taking breaks from the game because there is nothing worth doing at the moment. Letting people get some gear will keep players playing for just that much longer until the next wave of content.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Soul_of_Flames

[DieGhostDie]

To be fair to the casual base, I think ToS Underlurker SM needs work. I've done enough pugging as is to sympathize with their position.

 

Outside of that, Ravagers SM is fine. Just that one baws in ToS needs some tune down in difficulty. RIP full runs

[TACeMossie]

To be fair to the casual base, I think ToS Underlurker SM needs work. I've done enough pugging as is to sympathize with their position.

 

Outside of that, Ravagers SM is fine. Just that one baws in ToS needs some tune down in difficulty. RIP full runs

 

Shulk you're such a disgrace. I mean, by now, you should have optimized 198s and be able to solo the DPS requirements for that fight yourself!

 

But then again, I guess you can't help bads who don't know left from right, or standing in circles kills you instantly making it impossible to pass the cross phase because all the bads just so happened to also be the healers in the raid...

[Icestar]

I think ToS Underlurker SM needs work. I've done enough pugging as is to sympathize with their position.

 

Last night there were two pugs looking for members to ToS. One had the Underlurker killed and one did not, the group that had Underlurker killed got full after a few minutes (I was there), there were lots of healers, tanks and ofcourse DPS reporting in to join. The other team had only killed two bosses meaning they got Underlurker left to do, I saw them looking for people for an hour or so. I do not know if they got their OPS going or if they gave up but it says alot about the current situation with ToS. I will not pug Underlurker myself anymore until they change it, I only do thatone with my guilds.

 

Bioware needs to wake up and change the Underlurker for ToS to be fine again, I am absolutely sure that their statistics show that Underlurker is a gamebreaker for many since OPS disband when it comes to this boss.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Icestar

[AlrikFassbauer]

Not for them, because they want instant bis gear because they pay money.

 

Very cynical pöoint of view, probably coming from someone who is grumpy because the masses are bumping at the Progression Raiders' VIP club door.

[Ardarell_Solo]

Very cynical pöoint of view, probably coming from someone who is grumpy because the masses are bumping at the Progression Raiders' VIP club door.

 

You world is full of doors that don't even exist. Might be hard to tell though if you're sitting locked up in the self righteous self pronounced "normal" people VIP club without looking at the real world outside, since that could challenge one's prefabricated ideas...

[Island_Jedi]

You world is full of doors that don't even exist. Might be hard to tell though if you're sitting locked up in the self righteous self pronounced "normal" people VIP club without looking at the real world outside, since that could challenge one's prefabricated ideas...

 

yo bro, join the fight but keep the fight concise. post in my thread this one is redundant.

[Czajja]

They are good design choice. In fact Revan and Commanders in SM are so easy they should be tunned up.

 

8 or 9 bosses can be 4 manned and all of them can be solo tanked. When ppl can't complete OP with full team there is something seriously wrong with their game.

 

This whole disscusion about UL being too hard is a result of BW policy of making people overgeared for operatons, introducing tactical FPs, solo FPs, and 12x exp. Its just time when we see effects of this policy.

[FerkWork]

They are good design choice. In fact Revan and Commanders in SM are so easy they should be tunned up.

 

8 or 9 bosses can be 4 manned and all of them can be solo tanked. When ppl can't complete OP with full team there is something seriously wrong with their game.

 

This whole disscusion about UL being too hard is a result of BW policy of making people overgeared for operatons, introducing tactical FPs, solo FPs, and 12x exp. Its just time when we see effects of this policy.

 

Unfortunately those same people pay for the game and outnumber us. Makibg UL easier doesn't really affect my gameplay and keeps the masses here with content.

Edited April 14, 2015 by FerkWork

[Bravari]

the only thing UL needs is a significant enlargement of its enrage timer. There have been many pugs that will lose a few over the course of failed crosses but what always kills them is when UL enrages. For SM purposes, the enrage timer is too low.

[rawtravel]

I fully agree with the OP. It has always felt to me like the difficulty levels of SM vs HM vs NiM made sense, and the difference between FPs and OPs also worked fine. I am a casual, non-raiding, FP only, 90 minutes/day player. So "grinding" for the set bonus gear, only available from OPs, has no been on my radar at all. I play for comms.

 

While I thought/think the difficulty level is fine, I am confused about the rewards. Until the most recent patch, I was getting the same weekly reward ("Galactic Conflicts") for competing the so called "HM 60" FPs (Hammer Station, Athis, Mando Raiders and the Czerkas) as I would get for the REAL HMs (Manaan, Korriban, Tython, etc).

 

In the beginning I was only queueing for the REAL hard 60's, even though I knew that I could practically solo the easy ones with one hand tied behind my back.....for the same reward! I was up for the challenge, and wanted to be the best I could be, and not just gravitate to the easiest thing. Well after the first 3 weeks of this, I had literally only finished 2 missions. All the rest were wipe-fests that were filled with rage quitting, bad attitudes, and usually ended before the 1st boss (after way longer than my usual 90-minutes)!

 

I wasn't really learning anything new, certainly not having much fun, and also NOT earning any Elite or Ultimate comms! I said "screw this" and started queueing for the easier 60 HM FPs and found what I was looking for. A fun time and an easy way to earn my comms. Sure they are hardly a challenge, but there are ways of making them a challenge. Chain pulling is fun, and really shakes up the group if you don't warn them (tee hee), or sometimes I take off my helm, bracers and belt (even focus once!) to nerf my self down to where the fights are at least a bit challenging.

 

Problem is that now, as of latest patch, they have fixed this and I MUST do the really hard FP's to get the weekly "Galactic Conflcts", as the easy one do not work! So, after essentially face-rolling every FP for the last few months, I am now going to be forced into the HARD 60 FPs. Yes, I could do the tactical weekly, but it only gives 4 Ults and they are really just too ridiculously easy to even bother. I feel silly.

 

Well, I will be diving into the HARD 60 FPS and hopefully, there are more folks out there who can do it, are willing to talk me through tactics and there won't be as much rage and stupidity, but I am not optimistic. I fear that my skill level has diminished because I have barely been challenged, and it will probably take me a while to get back to the level that I can stand with the group and not be a liability.

[Pietrastor]

It's a great design choice to cater to a more niche audience. But we're talking expensive MMO maintained by a cut-throat publisher that will have no second thoughts about pulling a plug on it if the numbers ain't good enough. Bioware already admitted TOS is played by a fraction of the playerbase. Largely avoided/abandoned content = less content in the game for most players = less incentive to stay. That's the reality.

[FerkWork]

I fully agree with the OP. It has always felt to me like the difficulty levels of SM vs HM vs NiM made sense, and the difference between FPs and OPs also worked fine. I am a casual, non-raiding, FP only, 90 minutes/day player. So "grinding" for the set bonus gear, only available from OPs, has no been on my radar at all. I play for comms.

 

While I thought/think the difficulty level is fine, I am confused about the rewards. Until the most recent patch, I was getting the same weekly reward ("Galactic Conflicts") for competing the so called "HM 60" FPs (Hammer Station, Athis, Mando Raiders and the Czerkas) as I would get for the REAL HMs (Manaan, Korriban, Tython, etc).

 

In the beginning I was only queueing for the REAL hard 60's, even though I knew that I could practically solo the easy ones with one hand tied behind my back.....for the same reward! I was up for the challenge, and wanted to be the best I could be, and not just gravitate to the easiest thing. Well after the first 3 weeks of this, I had literally only finished 2 missions. All the rest were wipe-fests that were filled with rage quitting, bad attitudes, and usually ended before the 1st boss (after way longer than my usual 90-minutes)!

 

I wasn't really learning anything new, certainly not having much fun, and also NOT earning any Elite or Ultimate comms! I said "screw this" and started queueing for the easier 60 HM FPs and found what I was looking for. A fun time and an easy way to earn my comms. Sure they are hardly a challenge, but there are ways of making them a challenge. Chain pulling is fun, and really shakes up the group if you don't warn them (tee hee), or sometimes I take off my helm, bracers and belt (even focus once!) to nerf my self down to where the fights are at least a bit challenging.

 

Problem is that now, as of latest patch, they have fixed this and I MUST do the really hard FP's to get the weekly "Galactic Conflcts", as the easy one do not work! So, after essentially face-rolling every FP for the last few months, I am now going to be forced into the HARD 60 FPs. Yes, I could do the tactical weekly, but it only gives 4 Ults and they are really just too ridiculously easy to even bother. I feel silly.

 

Well, I will be diving into the HARD 60 FPS and hopefully, there are more folks out there who can do it, are willing to talk me through tactics and there won't be as much rage and stupidity, but I am not optimistic. I fear that my skill level has diminished because I have barely been challenged, and it will probably take me a while to get back to the level that I can stand with the group and not be a liability.

 

 

You should do BH. It's a fun FP .....

[Icestar]

Bioware already admitted TOS is played by a fraction of the playerbase.

 

If they have picked up on that there must be some kind of tuning for this SM OPS in the next patch.

 

I hope Bioware wants to keep their customers happy, they could boost the HM version to make it real hard for those that seek harder content.

[DragonSquig]

Our guild has been hurt by the increase in difficulty. We have a lot of social/casual Members who for the first 3 years of the game would Raid with us on 'Social Nights' once or twice a week. Now to get them through even Ravagers we have to stack the Ops with many more 'Raiders' then we used to have to. If enough of our more experienced/skilled people are not available then we cannot do the Operation that night.

 

This is frustrating for our Raid Leaders and uninteresting to our more casual Members who just want to hang out with their friends and see all the game content; and I thought a stated goal of BW was to allow everyone to see all game content.

 

3 difficulty modes seemed ideal, but we don't really care about that. What we care about is getting all of our Members into Operations sometimes. And while I personally I like the idea of the old Operations being 'new' again (they are fun), once every Operation is on level we will not even be able to take people through a tour of the old Ops for easy fun and Mounts/Achievements.

 

After almost 4 years of SWtOR it could be some difficult changes for many of our Members/Subscribers...

[power-alex]

Our guild has been hurt by the increase in difficulty. We have a lot of social/casual Members who for the first 3 years of the game would Raid with us on 'Social Nights' once or twice a week. Now to get them through even Ravagers we have to stack the Ops with many more 'Raiders' then we used to have to. If enough of our more experienced/skilled people are not available then we cannot do the Operation that night.

 

This is frustrating for our Raid Leaders and uninteresting to our more casual Members who just want to hang out with their friends and see all the game content; and I thought a stated goal of BW was to allow everyone to see all game content.

 

3 difficulty modes seemed ideal, but we don't really care about that. What we care about is getting all of our Members into Operations sometimes. And while I personally I like the idea of the old Operations being 'new' again (they are fun), once every Operation is on level we will not even be able to take people through a tour of the old Ops for easy fun and Mounts/Achievements.

 

After almost 4 years of SWtOR it could be some difficult changes for many of our Members/Subscribers...

 

You make it sound so innocent, while in fact you're covering your guildmate's laziness or inability to learn the game or execute simple mechanics with this "we just want to hang out and have fun. And also we are paying customers, so..."

If you want to just hang out, there are plenty of activities that don't require skill, like, go kill a lvl 40 world boss or collect datacrons.

But it seems like you want achievements and maybe some gear for 0 effort and I just can't support that.

Edited August 12, 2015 by power-alex

[AlrikFassbauer]

You make it sound so innocent, while in fact you're covering your guildmate's laziness or inability to learn the game or execute simple mechanics with this "we just want to hang out and have fun. And also we are paying customers, so..."

If you want to just hang out, there are plenty of activities that don't require skill, like, go kill a lvl 40 world boss or collect datacrons.

But it seems like you want achievements and maybe some gear for 0 effort and I just can't support that.

 

You make it sound so innocent, while in fact you're covering your guildmate's stubbornness or power-lust to make an OP a work with "we just want to do some serious work this evening, no lazy hang out, please. You can hang out with anyone during the weekl, but not today !"

 

Ah, the typical badmouthing of casuals. Thank you, this was needed to make it absolutely clear that casual gamers really have no place in this game !

[Torvai]

Casual !=bads. But for both are plenty of activitys in the game. They don't need to do ops if they aren't able to. In fact, There's way more content for all those who just want to play and don't invest any "work" in the game, than there is halfway serious content. Why do these people always want to take the little we, that enjoy a challenge, have left, away from us?

This isn't meant as insult, but the game is constantly dumbed down to cater to casuals and bads. If they can't or don't want to up their game, it's fine. But they should stay away from content that isn't meant for them.

 

Oh, and if your "raiders" in your guild can't carry 2-4 people through story mode, to "hang out with their friends", they don't deserve to be called raiders.