Concern about nerfs to dps for PVE content

[Preston_Violent]

Difficulty is like a filter : It lets only a percentage of *all* players through.

Like a funnel, those who get through it feel like as if they have achieved something extraordinarily. Which isn't bad as such.

 

What then happens is that the established player base of those who made it through just don't want others to water down their sense of an achievement. Any VIP club just is / stays as long VIP as it isn't available for the masses.

 

And Progression Raiding / End Game Raiding (especially NIM) is the highest tier of an VIP club in SWTOR - apart from Ranked PvP, which is like a sister or brother tier (in fact I see PvP & PvE like 2 branches of the same tree, nothing else).

 

To me, this means that if people don't want their "VIPness" to be watered down, then they've got to defend what they have achieved - they've got to defend the VIP club's entrance from being flooded by the masses. This is the only logical consequence.

 

Because any VIP club is senseless if masses can freely enter it.

 

And that's why there is such an hash and unforgiving argumentation against making SM mode OPs more accessible for the masses : Because this SM mode is like the first step of stairs up into an VIP club. Not everyone is meant to be able to enter. And this first step is merely the very first one in / of a series of filters / funnels.

 

And this is this war here in these forums that is currently going on :

 

Elitists (PvP & PvE alike) defending their VIP club doors against those masses who want to enter this VIP club as well - because if they'd let the masses in, it wouldn't be "VIP" anymore - and that's just bad for those who WNT to be VIP and are already "arrived Raiders".

 

And "Arrived Raiders" would like to keep everyone out, until he or she has been provinghimself or herslf worthy of entering. Equals among Equals.

 

And they look down from a point "standing on higher ground", down upon the masses which are doing that "rat race".

 

This is one of the reasons why I actually believe now that the human race is in fact a "pack race", like a pack of wolves.

 

There are Alpha- Beta- and Gamma-Animals in the pack, and a clear hierarchy.

 

You can see human hierarchy very clearly in firms, in companies, yes even in governments. The existence of Kings & Queens alone tells us that we are in fact "hierachy beings".

 

And the hierarchy in MMORPGs is merely another expression of the human hierarchy race (word-game).

 

You're right only the problem is, these members of the VIP raiding club are not numerous enough for the game to continue being worth maintaining. If being able to clear hm and nim is not enough for their ultra-massive ego's then too bad because developing content for a few chosen VIP ones (as it turned out to be with 3.0) will only bring the game one step closer to getting shut down for being unprofitable.

[Icestar]

developing content for a few chosen VIP ones (as it turned out to be with 3.0) will only bring the game one step closer to getting shut down for being unprofitable.

 

Yes, they dropped the ball with 3.0 lets hope they pick it up because this game has changed since the 3.0 patch and it is not for the better.

 

We get some Ultimates for doing old content in the next patch, guess it is better then spending resources in recycling content from HM to NiM that probably 0.01% of the current playerbase can complete.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Icestar

[Preston_Violent]

Yes, they dropped the ball with 3.0 lets hope they pick it up because this game has changed since the 3.0 patch and it is not for the better.

 

We get some Ultimates for doing old content in the next patch, guess it is better then spending resources in recycling content from HM to NiM that probably 0.01% of the current playerbase can complete.

 

True but most are already sick to death of old ops and most importantly, unlike before 3.0, ultimate gear is now absolute garbage. It'll be easier to get ultimates in 3.2 but they're basically still not worth it. Armorings without set bonus, okay that can be justified, but ****** both mods and enhancements...

[Ardarell_Solo]

What then happens is that the established player base of those who made it through just don't want others to water down their sense of an achievement. Any VIP club just is / stays as long VIP as it isn't available for the masses.

 

That's just plain nonsense. I'm happy for anyone who manages what I have achieved - just because it's such a thrill downing HM/NiM bosses that I think the world will be a better place the more overjoyed people there are :-)

 

And I'm not interested in being in a "VIP" club and neither is anyone of the players in my guild (8/10 HM Tos/Ravagers). Because we're not doing it to be "impotant" (if at all we might be because of the human beings we are, the people we love, our families etc.), but we enjoy achieving something with the people we've been playing with for almost 3 years now and with whom we shared guild weekends with fine T-Bones and Spareribs and drunken nights full of unfunny jokes, weird chess games, Vodka Monopoly etc.

 

So stop overgeneralizing in every single one of your cry baby posts as self appointed lawyer for the so called average player which is just a persona you have simply extrapolized from your very self (in quite a narcisstical way, as I might add), cause it's quite annoying the way you make every one who has had the priviledge of achieving more in this game (!) than you have a bad person per se.

[JDotter]

You're right only the problem is, these members of the VIP raiding club are not numerous enough for the game to continue being worth maintaining. If being able to clear hm and nim is not enough for their ultra-massive ego's then too bad because developing content for a few chosen VIP ones (as it turned out to be with 3.0) will only bring the game one step closer to getting shut down for being unprofitable.

 

I don't think anyone in any of the top tier world class guilds are openly ******es. Most of the players don't really interact via the forums because its essentially a wasteland of misinformation & opinion. '

 

I think you are mistaking players who think they are extremely talented for those that spam general chat asking for XYZ to pug a operation.

[mastirkal]

I have yet to meet anyone inside of DnT/Hates/Provectus/ExitArea/Chandrian/etc that are in the boat of the fourteen guilds that have cleared 10/10 who feel that they don't want others to clear revan and be part of an "exclusive club". Sure we all want to be the best or at least faster to the kill than each other, but that's being competitive more so than it's being ******es. The fight isn't easy, it takes time and effort to master, much more so than any other boss ever made in this game. Every guild I've asked said they spent at least 40 all the way up to 150 hours of wipes just to get their first kill, that is by no means insignificant on either end of the spectrum.

 

@OP, currently even with the loss of overall dps from classes, the fight and specifically the soft enrage is very much doable as long as all dps and at least one tank is up.

Edited April 11, 2015 by mastirkal

[Preston_Violent]

I don't think anyone in any of the top tier world class guilds are openly ******es. Most of the players don't really interact via the forums because its essentially a wasteland of misinformation & opinion. '

 

I think you are mistaking players who think they are extremely talented for those that spam general chat asking for XYZ to pug a operation.

 

I was referring to those a** holes elitists here who continue insisting that difficulty level of certain instances (tos story, blood hunt hm) should remain as it is. For the above-mentioned mega-selfish reasons (the VIP post) they don't want casuals to be able to clear if not as easily but at least clear it for sure, get some comms, some resurrected tokens, complete the weekly and be happy over getting results for time spent...not get to the underlurcker, have a few rounds of wipes and disband. That's what's happening and people would rather stop raiding at all than take chances in tos over and over just to wipe at the 3rd boss and call it, over and over. Why can't everyone enjoy the new content, each to their own extent?

[Ruskaeth]

I had the pleasure of pugging ToS SM with true kvlt elite players. World class by Zeus and Thor, they were, I promise! I even won a roll on gear but I was so humbled by their amazing skills and execution that it made me just give that piece of gear to their guy tanking it. A guy masterfully, no, world classily, tanking it. Certaintly that was unique player who did an amazing job with gear I can only describe as "not possible in ordinary pugs". Again, even more humbling experience. They passed the limits of ordinary casual pugs like it was nothing. I immediately asked if they are gearing their tank. No one answered. I was still amazed and decided to trade the piece I won to that person, and as I expected, that person just accepted trade, nothing else. How cool can you be? That kind of silent modesty humbled me even further.

 

TL;DR: Passing that piece of gear felt like a blessing. You should do that to help elites. I knew it will go to good use. Much better than what I could have provided for it. I felt like it was a God given gift for me to see a raid executed perfectly by their amazing world class players! I am thankful I could be part of that short storm through ToS. Bless them @ TRE. Sadly, my daughter woke up from her nap and I had to leave before seeing the feat of defeating Revan on 16 man with only 8 players!! Please, do not judge elite players. After all, they are elite and you can only be humbled by their show of amazing talent.

 

I kiiid... I kiiiiid.. but it did happen.

 

Edited April 11, 2015 by Ruskaeth

[attilaszokol]

In my opinion, the new content after the 3.0 patch is too hard. Until now, I can not do the level 60 HM Flashpoints (Battle of Rishi / Bloodhunt) or the story mode Ravagers / Temple of Sacrifice operations. I have been playing with SWTOr from the launching the game (I am pre-order player), and I have alaways subscription, but now this game is unplayable for me. In my opinion, the challange rating is set for Public Test Server hardcore players (those who have no life in the real world), therefore the casual player can not enjoy the PvE contect, just always die and die again.. This is very frustrating, and there is no game in this. Therefore I am deleting my (more than 3 years old) continous subscription. An advice for the BioWare: read and listen the subscribers' complains in the Forums, and do not develop the game only for the harcore players. Other case, only the hardcore players will play and pay for this game.. May the Force be with you.

[Arunas]

In my opinion, the new content after the 3.0 patch is too hard. Until now, I can not do the level 60 HM Flashpoints (Battle of Rishi / Bloodhunt) or the story mode Ravagers / Temple of Sacrifice operations. I have been playing with SWTOr from the launching the game (I am pre-order player), and I have alaways subscription, but now this game is unplayable for me. In my opinion, the challange rating is set for Public Test Server hardcore players (those who have no life in the real world), therefore the casual player can not enjoy the PvE contect, just always die and die again.. This is very frustrating, and there is no game in this. Therefore I am deleting my (more than 3 years old) continous subscription. An advice for the BioWare: read and listen the subscribers' complains in the Forums, and do not develop the game only for the harcore players. Other case, only the hardcore players will play and pay for this game.. May the Force be with you.

 

I am sorry but Battle of Rishi HM is not hard and neither SM ops and I am a casual player. In fact all HM FPs except Blood Hunt are so easy its boring, no challenge just grind.

 

Remember when people were hitting enrage on HM Black Talon bosses? Either the game got easier or people got better and I doubt its the latter

Edited April 12, 2015 by Arunas

[Goatwhore]

Difficulty is like a filter : It lets only a percentage of *all* players through.

Like a funnel, those who get through it feel like as if they have achieved something extraordinarily. Which isn't bad as such.

 

What then happens is that the established player base of those who made it through just don't want others to water down their sense of an achievement. Any VIP club just is / stays as long VIP as it isn't available for the masses.

 

And Progression Raiding / End Game Raiding (especially NIM) is the highest tier of an VIP club in SWTOR - apart from Ranked PvP, which is like a sister or brother tier (in fact I see PvP & PvE like 2 branches of the same tree, nothing else).

 

To me, this means that if people don't want their "VIPness" to be watered down, then they've got to defend what they have achieved - they've got to defend the VIP club's entrance from being flooded by the masses. This is the only logical consequence.

 

Because any VIP club is senseless if masses can freely enter it.

 

And that's why there is such an hash and unforgiving argumentation against making SM mode OPs more accessible for the masses : Because this SM mode is like the first step of stairs up into an VIP club. Not everyone is meant to be able to enter. And this first step is merely the very first one in / of a series of filters / funnels.

 

And this is this war here in these forums that is currently going on :

 

Elitists (PvP & PvE alike) defending their VIP club doors against those masses who want to enter this VIP club as well - because if they'd let the masses in, it wouldn't be "VIP" anymore - and that's just bad for those who WNT to be VIP and are already "arrived Raiders".

 

And "Arrived Raiders" would like to keep everyone out, until he or she has been provinghimself or herslf worthy of entering. Equals among Equals.

 

And they look down from a point "standing on higher ground", down upon the masses which are doing that "rat race".

 

This is one of the reasons why I actually believe now that the human race is in fact a "pack race", like a pack of wolves.

 

There are Alpha- Beta- and Gamma-Animals in the pack, and a clear hierarchy.

 

You can see human hierarchy very clearly in firms, in companies, yes even in governments. The existence of Kings & Queens alone tells us that we are in fact "hierachy beings".

 

And the hierarchy in MMORPGs is merely another expression of the human hierarchy race (word-game).

 

You have a skewed view of things aside from this being massively ignorant. A few people who think they are elite (in the context of swtor) do not represent all progression guilds or ranked PVP whatevers. If you're willing to put in the time and effort improving how you play your class and mechanics, then I'd love to have you in my guild.

 

You're essentially saying that anything that requires pre-requisites, sacrifice, or talent in the world is a VIP elitist club and should let anyone have a go. If you want it, you put in the work and *********** get it. Don't blame other people.

[Felkroth]

Maybe it's more work than you're used to, but if you or your team lose faith in your/their ability to down said content, then that's *your* fault, not the content's.

 

Elitist jerk mentality. Enjoy playing this game by yourself, and eventually having no competition. I've been playing THOSE mmos for 5+ years where the guilds shrunk, died, got discouraged by the bugs, overtuned content, etc. It isn't fun anymore sitting at the top of the world leaderboard when only 3 or 4 guilds are playing the content.

 

 

You really need to be considering the longevity of the game as a bigger picture instead worrying about your measly challenge difficulty.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Felkroth

[Brxaadambombz]

Elitist jerk mentality. Enjoy playing this game by yourself, and eventually having no competition. I've been playing THOSE mmos for 5+ years where the guilds shrunk, died, got discouraged by the bugs, overtuned content, etc. It isn't fun anymore sitting at the top of the world leaderboard when only 3 or 4 guilds are playing the content.

 

 

You really need to be considering the longevity of the game as a bigger picture instead worrying about your measly challenge difficulty.

 

I love it when people throw 'elitist' at everything. It seems to stick to everything in these forums.

[Felkroth]

Additionally ain't nobody got time for the amount of effort you should put into Revan (or for other guilds...the other encounters)

 

I'm 9 of 10, have put in 15ish hours on Revan, raid two days a week for 3ish hours. Bout done with that noise...espically knowing the clear rate is anywhere from 40-150 hours of investment...I def don't got time, nor am willing to put forth that much investment toward, doing dat.

 

I think BW will find a lot of people ain't got time for this ****.

[vdbswong]

I love it when people throw 'elitist' at everything. It seems to stick to everything in these forums.

 

Unfortunately it's one of the first responses thrown out because... i don't know... style points or something.

 

Elitist jerk mentality. Enjoy playing this game by yourself, and eventually having no competition. I've been playing THOSE mmos for 5+ years where the guilds shrunk, died, got discouraged by the bugs, overtuned content, etc. It isn't fun anymore sitting at the top of the world leaderboard when only 3 or 4 guilds are playing the content.

 

I'd love for you to explain how it exactly qualifies as an elitist jerk mentatlity... I'm not here judging players as being "bads" nor discouraging them from trying content because they "don't belong".

 

I don't really give a damn who plays the content, but that's the difficulty it's set at and if you want to down it then it'll highlight where and how you need to improve, be it class' rotation, awareness or simply just attitude.

 

Additionally ain't nobody got time for the amount of effort you should put into Revan (or for other guilds...the other encounters)

 

I'm 9 of 10, have put in 15ish hours on Revan, raid two days a week for 3ish hours. Bout done with that noise...espically knowing the clear rate is anywhere from 40-150 hours of investment...I def don't got time, nor am willing to put forth that much investment toward, doing dat.

 

I think BW will find a lot of people ain't got time for this ****.

 

Cool story... so just because *you* and others don't want to put the time in, somehow that justifies Bioware catering to your whim?

 

I'm here in exactly the same position, putting in the hours to try and get Revan down and rather than ************, whining and saying that it's too difficult, I relish the challenge because I know that our group is capable of rising up to it.

 

If this one boss isn't worth your time in order to learn the fight, then don't do that boss... if you're willing to pass on EV, KP, EC, TFB, SnV, DF or DP every week, then 1 boss out of 10 isn't really going to make much of a difference. Just go down Revanite Commanders, /ExitArea and go kill "[Weekly] The Enemy Within" (so you at least feel like you've completed the Operation) and leave the people that are willing to put in the time to go about their thing.

[Felkroth]

THE NEEDS OF THE MANY OUTWEIGH THE NEEDS OF THE FEW.

 

 

 

youz tha few btw.

[vdbswong]

THE NEEDS OF THE MANY OUTWEIGH THE NEEDS OF THE FEW.

 

 

 

youz tha few btw.

 

Except you don't *need* to kill Revan... you just want to.

 

But apparently not enough to put the time in though.

[FerkWork]

People are making a lot of assumptions and thinking in the wrong terms. What I find disturbing is BW has remained muted on the difficulty of the Ops and especially HM Revan (If this is wrong and they have then please ignore the rest).

 

Three possibilities emerge for why Revan is a significant challenge especially for an HM boss.

1) Intentional and BW wanted to increase difficulty which if they did they should say so. More so if they are getting rid of NiM.

2) Not factoring in the game engine with the making of mechanics: That when you fire your character also turns makes the Abberations added layer of difficulty that seems out of place.

3) Lack of communication with balance team: The major DPS check in Revan is given another layer of difficulty with a balance team that wants to prevent power creep and trivializing of content while Ops team wants to make a exciting endgame fights and phases that keep players occupied.

But this is all speculation as BW Ops team hasn't posted what their vision of the content is. Silence is the current state right now.

 

However, people are thinking in terms of fairness, work, skill and forgetting what truly matters: Profits. At the end of the day, if 9/10 guilds don't want to pull more Revan as it seems like a job they might go play another game further reducing the sub amount and raiders which shrinks our PvE content even further. If players think the content is acceptable then they will stay if not they will move on. It's all relative. Money rules all. Is it fair or that people shouldn't be entitled to things and should earn it? Probable so, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter who is right or entitled to what but who voted with their wallets as its still a business and a game. We shall see how this turns out over the next few months.

 

TLDR: Say something BW Ops team about your intentions for the love of all that is Kephess.

Edited April 13, 2015 by FerkWork

[vdbswong]

Three possibilities emerge for why Revan is a significant challenge especially for an HM boss.

1) Intentional and BW wanted to increase difficulty which if they did they should say so. More so if they are getting rid of NiM.

 

I don't think they've stated the latter, but iirc they did state that the increased difficulty was intended to try and prolong the lifespan of relevant content when the issue was brought up on the PTS.

[Snean]

i remember that game has many many servers

i remember 500+ ppl on fleet.

it was ~200ppl on 3.0 start

and only 88 last weekend...

 

excellent dynamics bioware.

subscribers "love" you

 

Do not change anything ... do not fix bugs ... continue nerf dps ... NGE wait you

Edited April 13, 2015 by Snean

[skomerko]

deleted Edited March 31, 2019 by skomerko

[Sindariel]

They don't need to tone down the difficulty of the fights, they just need to remove those damn enrage timers.

 

Revan already has a soft enrage with orb stacks, it doesn't need a hard enrage, too.

 

Brontes doesn't have a hard enrage and it was one of the most challenging and difficult fights in the previous tier.

[Loc_n_lol]

I think it is good idea. Previous hms were trivial as ****. You could clear them in 2 days. What they should do now imo - bring Revan and Cora down to 8/10 difficulty level.

You wouldn't happen to be sitting at 8/10 personal progression, would you ?

Because it would be another perfect example of this.

 

"Plz bring down the difficulty of what I can't clear, I want to achieve moar. Plz don't touch the diffculty of what I can clear, I don't want lowly peons to match my achievements."

[DieGhostDie]

They don't need to tone down the difficulty of the fights, they just need to remove those damn enrage timers.

 

Revan already has a soft enrage with orb stacks, it doesn't need a hard enrage, too.

 

Brontes doesn't have a hard enrage and it was one of the most challenging and difficult fights in the previous tier.

 

I disagree.

 

Enrage timers are one of the important gimmicks that's been going on in every MMO (WoW, FFXIV, Wildstar, etc.). Hard enrages are there to meet DPS/Mechanic awareness checks. Taking it away will remove the essence of Hard Modes being "hard". D:

[Ruskaeth]

There should always be a hard enrage or something else eventually overwhelming the raid team on HM and NiM at least.