Concern about nerfs to dps for PVE content

[AlrikFassbauer]

Blood Hunt HM

51k Sniper: "there's no way we can do this with one undergeared dps"

Then they kick me.

 

Misinformed Or Elitism ?

Or even both ?

[Athena-Nike]

I think it depends on what is coming. If the current tier HM content is going to be the new NiM level then I can understand the difficulty, however if there is NiM coming after this then I do think that they're a bit over tuned. The current content has no middle ground, which makes me think that both SM and HM will receive a nerf if/when NiM comes along.

 

Judging by the fact that the current HM has been cleared by 15 (I think) guilds to date, and most of those using very specific groups is a bit telling.

 

If that is the case then wouldn't they have done something similar to the "nightmare power buff" they had in DP/DF? This seems to be the normal future difficulty and the fact that it has been cleared is evidence enough for EAWare to leave it as is. I doubt they care how its cleared (by specific setups and elite players) or how often, just that SOMEONE can do it thus it can be done and now back to reskins for the CM...

[vdbswong]

So just to clarify, people in this topic are okay that mid-tier (HM) content has only been cleared by previous top-tier (NM) guilds? Do you believe that is a healthy means of having the game, where previous HM tier guilds are typically at best 8/10 right now? Because SM is too easy for them, but 4 months in those guilds are not clearing content they are typically geared towards clearing. What is their content supposed to be? Just the first half of the two current HM raids?

 

In my view, this clearly shows that the current HM tier is too much. Now, I'm not saying it's wildly too much. I think just a few DPS checks should be tuned down just a bit. I'm not even really against the nerfs. But it's a legitimate concern that several mid-tier raiding guilds when the nerfs are not accompanied by proportional HP level changes. If HM is meant to be cleared by HM-tier raiding guilds, then this operation cycle has been overtuned. If you want HM to be setup such that only 15 guilds can clear it in a third of a year, then defend that argument. But standing on a pedestal and shouting "git gud" at us "filthy casuals" who are only seeing the operations harder doesn't prove your elite status. It just proves your elitism.

 

I think the notion of labelling Guilds/Teams as "SM-tier / HM-tier / NiM-tier" is a problem within itself... if you can't clear the HM level of current content, then maybe you're no longer of that tier?

 

That's not a jab at the Guilds or the Teams in question, but originally it was the content itself that determined whether or not Guilds were "NiM-capable" or w.e. but suddenly when the "majority" of guilds can't clear said content (which has always been the case tbh), it's now the content that needs to be adjusted to fit into this plan.

 

I get that everybody hates wiping on content, but simply labelling it as "too difficult" is taking the easy way out. The attitude that content needs to be nerfed instead of people learning their class to its full potential, taking more responsibility in boss fights or even optimising strategy for their group is what's lacking.

 

At the end of the day, what kills raid groups isn't content that's too hard, but the lack of trust between raid members to count on them executing mechanics properly... everyone thinks that they should be able to do the content but the others are holding them back, so rather than simply deal with those issues they'd prefer to blame the difficulty because at least that way they don't have to act like a ****** person to someone else.

[Brxaadambombz]

I get that everybody hates wiping on content, but simply labelling it as "too difficult" is taking the easy way out. The attitude that content needs to be nerfed instead of people learning their class to its full potential, taking more responsibility in boss fights or even optimising strategy for their group is what's lacking.

 

I mostly agree with what you've said. However I think the fact that previous HM's have been much easier, and that some have an expectation that they should be able to clear HM within a certain time frame is what is also causing people to be upset. The challenge was nice, even though the bugs were quite annoying. I think having HM be slightly more forgiving may appeal to more people in terms of keeping raiders in the game, since there is still the ability for nim to build on it. I guess it's just the time frame between HM and NiM which is boring when the HM tier is much easier.

[vdbswong]

I mostly agree with what you've said. However I think the fact that previous HM's have been much easier, and that some have an expectation that they should be able to clear HM within a certain time frame is what is also causing people to be upset. The challenge was nice, even though the bugs were quite annoying. I think having HM be slightly more forgiving may appeal to more people in terms of keeping raiders in the game, since there is still the ability for nim to build on it. I guess it's just the time frame between HM and NiM which is boring when the HM tier is much easier.

 

I agree, but with regards to previous HM's being easier, clinging onto a previous tier's progression rate as an attempt to judge your "current" ability is really just setting yourself up for failure and disappointment.

 

I mean noone really cares if you got that World First Soa kill at launch if you're not able to clear SM Rav now... at the end of the day, people should be judging guilds not by how well they used to do pre-3.0, but how well they're doing post-3.0 and if you're not doing as well as you'd like? Then make an effort to work on that, instead of trying to ask for the content to be easier (because at the end of the day, there's always storymode if you want easier).

 

And as for tuning content down because there's the potential for NiM to make it even harder... I think that people vastly overrate the difficulty of content when they're wiping on it. The amount of times I've witnessed first-hand multiple wipes on a boss week after week and then the week after it finally dies? Bam! One Shot! Did the boss' difficulty suddenly drop in between? Usually not... but the confidence gained, even if it is subconsciously, that people *are* doing the right thing can make all the difference.

[mrvwbug]

If HM Revan requires a completely stacked FOTM raid comp (for progression at least) rivaling the raid stacking that was needed for Sunwell in WoW then that is a problem. Especially if NiM is still to come, you may end up with unclearable content (especially since SWTOR seems to have avoided the WoW phenomenon of paid professional raiders).

[Snean]

ppl who already kill revan .... will continue kill him.

ppl who not kill him ... will kill him some day ... may be

[Halinalle]

Misinformed Or Elitism ?

Or even both ?

 

There must be something wrong with my gear because today I keep getting constant whispers from random people saying my mainstat is 1k lower than endurance.

[Loc_n_lol]

There must be something wrong with my gear because today I keep getting constant whispers from random people saying my mainstat is 1k lower than endurance.

Commendation enhancements and/or power augments ?

[Halinalle]

Commendation enhancements and/or power augments ?

 

I've replaced most of the commendation enhancements with crafted, even gone so far that replaced high endurance 192 with crafted 186 because more Power. I still have bad 192 in offhand. I have to check if I have enough mats to craft though. Augments: 2 Surge (for 70%), 2 Alacrity, 2 Acc (to get over 100%), everything else is Power. I don't even know if that's good for Anni.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Halinalle

[Loc_n_lol]

I don't even know if that's good for Anni.

Neither do I but it certainly explains the endurance/mainstat disparity compared to a full mainstat augmented gear.

 

Anyway back on topic... I'm part of semi-casual progression groups in 2 different guilds and feeling like sitting between 2 chairs, with no appropriate content to play... Imp side seems to have hit a brick wall at Sword Squadron HM to excessive damage taken, rep-side just recently passed it and is probably going to struggle immensely onward for lack of dps. Regardless of progression, Bulo and Sword Squadron are still difficult. No one-shotting here.

 

These are all people who could one-shot DF/DP HM pre-3.0 (after months of practice).

SM provides no challenge at all, and is getting repetitive. Only the underlurker still causes the odd wipe.

 

And then, come HM, bam! impassable wall at second/third boss.

 

So where's my mid-tier content ? The one that underlurker SM belongs in.

[WheresMyWhisky]

I've replaced most of the commendation enhancements with crafted, even gone so far that replaced high endurance 192 with crafted 186 because more Power. I still have bad 192 in offhand. I have to check if I have enough mats to craft though. Augments: 2 Surge (for 70%), 2 Alacrity, 2 Acc (to get over 100%), everything else is Power. I don't even know if that's good for Anni.

 

This is basically the best guide for anni / watchman there is

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...ght=compendium

 

I wouldn't put on any alacrity until you are full 192 and then only one piece is my preference but just look at oofalong's guide its really very good

[Rithoma]

First of all, I have to say that I agree with BW's in the OP. The power creep was out of control in this game between the Oricon patch in late 2013 and the 3.0 update in last December, basically making 95% of endgame way too ridiculiously easy. It is a good thing that they are aware of that now.

 

Yet, I understand the OP's concerns. The problem, however, is not the general nerfing, the problem is that the devs obviously don't wanna put a lot of thought and effort into balancing classes. Instead of fine tuning over-performing classes, they literally castrate them until they're not balanced, but under-performing, which in turn makes the other classes over-perform in PvP. And from there the spiral goes downward.

 

As so often with the BW dev team, the general idea isn't bad, but a little more love for the detail would solve problems instead of causing new ones. The nerfs since 3.0 have taken away a lot of gameplay fun for some classes, especially for solo content like dailies. I have a scoundrel and sage healer, the lack of AoE and decent ranged abilities (scoundrel only) makes both specs very unenjoyable for solo daily runs now. My Merc healer, on the other hand, just sweeps through Yavin 4. Fine tuning instead of castration would have been better.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Rithoma

[ArchangelLBC]

I agree, but with regards to previous HM's being easier, clinging onto a previous tier's progression rate as an attempt to judge your "current" ability is really just setting yourself up for failure and disappointment.

 

I mean noone really cares if you got that World First Soa kill at launch if you're not able to clear SM Rav now... at the end of the day, people should be judging guilds not by how well they used to do pre-3.0, but how well they're doing post-3.0 and if you're not doing as well as you'd like? Then make an effort to work on that, instead of trying to ask for the content to be easier (because at the end of the day, there's always storymode if you want easier).

 

And as for tuning content down because there's the potential for NiM to make it even harder... I think that people vastly overrate the difficulty of content when they're wiping on it. The amount of times I've witnessed first-hand multiple wipes on a boss week after week and then the week after it finally dies? Bam! One Shot! Did the boss' difficulty suddenly drop in between? Usually not... but the confidence gained, even if it is subconsciously, that people *are* doing the right thing can make all the difference.

 

This argument would have merit if it were at all grounded in the reality that we actually have instead of unthinking elitism.

 

Here is the fact. There were people in previous tiers who could clear all hm content, with a good chunk of work, who had no business in nightmare mode. Those same people now have no business in hard mode. At all. Worse, there are entire advanced classes that have no business in a progression group at all, no matter how good the person behind the keyboard is.

 

This is a serious problem and is absolutely not ok, even if we never get a NiM in this tier. The story modes are too easy for even previously non-NiM people, but the hard modes come with all of the frustration usually associated with NiM. In particular the tight checks (healing, tanking, dps) and the wipe inducing nature of even a single mistake.

 

Again, I expect that out of nightmare. I don't expect it out of hard mode, and if that's the new standard guilds will simply break and the pool of endgame players that even care about raiding will shrink further.

 

And this is absolutely exacerbated by the current class balance situation. Again, in Nightmare I have no problem telling a player "sorry, your class is a huge drag on progression. You need to reroll." That's just the way it rolls, even though it sucks. When we're saying that in Hard Mode.L, when the best PvE Anni Mara in the game switches to Merc because he doesn't want to hurt his raid team, that's a serious tuning issue.

 

The reason we use the word balance is because we all implicitly recognize that you need to keep away from two extremes. If hard mode is too easy, on the level of current story modes, especially when nightmare is always released several months later, then even those who have no business in nightmare get bored and quit. Too hard, and those same players get frustrated and quit. Both are easy to do. Both are bad. The sweet spot between too hard and too easy is tough, but it's worth it to give the majority of endgame players something they can accomplish that actually feels like an accomplishment.

 

 

If we were two months in and only 15 guilds had cleared both ops, but had done so with a standard group make up, then I'd say things were about right. Almost 5 months in, and pretty much all first kills coming from stacked groups of very dedicated people, and you have a problem.

[dbears]

Worse, there are entire advanced classes that have no business in a progression group at all, no matter how good the person behind the keyboard is.

 

Sorry, what?

 

Just lemme list them for my own reference here..

 

Sorcercer, viable

Assassin, viable

Powertech, viable

Mercenary, viable

Sniper, viable

Operative, viable

Juggernaut, viable

Marauder, viable

 

Yup. That's all 8. Just like I thought..

[ArchangelLBC]

Viable when sending over min/max gear from an optimized run in a group of people on alts who have the entire operations on farm?

 

Because when I say progression group I mean a group trying to clear content for the first time. Because I know a lot of players who rerolled and retired their mains rather than inflict their preferred class on their raid group until they have the content on farm.

[namesaretough]

I'm almost positive every class has cleared revan hm in a guild-first group in each role it's capable of. The only one I don't know about is mara, actually, although I'm pretty sure the lack of maras is at least partly attributed to the amount of players who stopped playing the class after the 3.0 changes. They're certainly all "viable" in a progression setting.

 

The issue is the difference between "viable" and "optimal" (which isn't helped by the number of people in progression guilds who say "viable" or "viable for progression" when they mean "optimal for progression"). Everything is viable. The problem is one base class is clearly optimal for revan, which has strongly biased the community above and beyond the general melee unfriendliness of the new operations.

Edited April 10, 2015 by namesaretough

[Gyronamics]

dunno, i think the mom aggro & timezone difference are worse

 

Nah we have players from east europe and the US all playing to GMT times and as long as people are motivated they put up with weird zone differences which of course they know before they even join.

 

Keeping people motivated and recruiting to replace ones who move on is the true challenge.

 

I'm fairly sure all major guilds primarily consist of age groups that are out of reach of all but mom-on-the-phone or family-visits aggro which is hard to defend against.

[vdbswong]

Here is the fact. There were people in previous tiers who could clear all hm content, with a good chunk of work, who had no business in nightmare mode. Those same people now have no business in hard mode. At all. Worse, there are entire advanced classes that have no business in a progression group at all, no matter how good the person behind the keyboard is.

 

Fact is that times change and if you could clear all HM content before, with a chunk of good work, then surprise surprise, you can clear HM content now, with a chunk of good work.

 

Maybe it's more work than you're used to, but if you or your team lose faith in your/their ability to down said content, then that's *your* fault, not the content's.

 

This is a serious problem and is absolutely not ok, even if we never get a NiM in this tier. The story modes are too easy for even previously non-NiM people, but the hard modes come with all of the frustration usually associated with NiM. In particular the tight checks (healing, tanking, dps) and the wipe inducing nature of even a single mistake.

 

And what happens with the players that find Story Mode too hard and struggle through? For those that don't have the DPS to down Underlurker or Torque? Should we further nerf those encounters to appeal to more people?

 

People always want something to be able to best a challenge and thus "prove" that they're good players, but more and more people are unwilling to put in more effort than they expect in order to achieve results.

 

There are *always* going to be Teams that are stuck in between Tiers and at the end of the day, those Teams need decide what sort of Team they want to be, one that simply gives up because they're not good enough or one that keeps persevering to finally get the kill.

 

Again, I expect that out of nightmare. I don't expect it out of hard mode, and if that's the new standard guilds will simply break and the pool of endgame players that even care about raiding will shrink further.

 

Or they'll just join new guilds that *can* clear the content and thus the status of "SM/HM/NiM" Tier guilds will just re-stabilise.

 

And this is absolutely exacerbated by the current class balance situation. Again, in Nightmare I have no problem telling a player "sorry, your class is a huge drag on progression. You need to reroll." That's just the way it rolls, even though it sucks.

 

In reality what you're really saying there is

 

"I don't think a player of your skill level can perform up to the standard i *think* we need in order to kill this boss within a reasonable timeframe".

 

Which when you break it down is either one of two considerations:

 

a) That you know that even if his class were played perfectly, that you would still wipe. Which as mentioned in the thread, is not actually about "viability" of a class so much as "optimal"; of which there are no non-viable classes, simply sub-optimal ones.

 

b) That you believe he *does* have the ability to defeat said encounter, but the time he'd take to optimise his play would hamper your group's "progression" and so you're willing to trade out for a different class where he wouldn't have to play as close to optimal.

 

At the end of the day, it all comes down to how much of a dick you're willing to be for the sake of "progression".

 

When we're saying that in Hard Mode.L, when the best PvE Anni Mara in the game switches to Merc because he doesn't want to hurt his raid team, that's a serious tuning issue.

 

Except here we're talking about a Team/Mindset that wishes to clear the content as quickly as possible regardless of any other factors.

 

At which point you're always going to get "cheese" comps, be it the double Hybrid Sin comp. vs. NiM Brontes to stacking Snipers for 16m progression.

 

People are always going to try and "maximise" their chances, but that's not the fault of the content difficulty, more the attitude towards clearing it.

 

If we were two months in and only 15 guilds had cleared both ops, but had done so with a standard group make up, then I'd say things were about right. Almost 5 months in, and pretty much all first kills coming from stacked groups of very dedicated people, and you have a problem.

 

It's only a problem if we regard it as one.

 

Everyone's so fixated on the whole Revan BH-cheese that they're either unwilling to put enough time into progressing with a standard comp. or like you said, would just prefer to funnel gear and experience from the cheese comp into their standard group, minimising the time needed to kill it with that group. That's not so much "balancing" as it is simply maximising efficiency of raiding time.

 

Also, we're basically talking about 1 encounter out of 10... people are progressing through at various rates of the other 9/10, but because 1 encounter is being cleared by cheese comps, it's a sign that the entire tier of content needs to be nerfed?

[Citruzz]

Its only a question of experience. The most of the current players do not have solid experience in progress- or racing raiding. The main use of the bh is not its class performance at revan, its to decrease stress level of the player by handle the pushes and pulls. Especially in the core phase its pretty stressful to handle expolsions and pushes/pulls at the same time and doing well in dps/hps performance. This bossfight requires a lot of experience to beat him fairly quickly. Players without solid experience have to learn, but this is quietly difficult here. After a few p3 attempts you are just burned out. So it will take a while until you can play this boss with closed eyes. Edited April 11, 2015 by Citruzz

[namesaretough]

The main use of the bh is not its class performance at revan, its to decrease stress level of the player by handle the pushes and pulls.

 

No, it's to improve uptime because you ignore the pulls... it's not the "stress" of the mechanic, it's the ability to trivialize it and dps instead.

[mynameisbugged]

seems like the thread has evolved into two sides just yelling at each other saying "nerf content plz" and elitists calling "git gud". While i find the current difficulty great, i just want BW to leave it as it is(and maybe fix the bugs), as few guilds have passed them and progressing slower than previous tier already, and nerfing dps is only going to make this worse.

[Citruzz]

No, it's to improve uptime because you ignore the pulls... it's not the "stress" of the mechanic, it's the ability to trivialize it and dps instead.

 

You have to spread your sight at different levels. For a professional nerd, a bh is just a tool to increase the output performance, especially if the gear is not fully optimized for a usual revan kill. But my example in previous post is just a another point of the utility of this class. I have no idea at which point the most teams are wiping at p3, but a hard enrage (unsurvivable heave) wipe after a absolute flawless gameplay (group setup doesnt matter in this case) should not happen really often.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Citruzz

[AlrikFassbauer]

Difficulty is like a filter : It lets only a percentage of *all* players through.

Like a funnel, those who get through it feel like as if they have achieved something extraordinarily. Which isn't bad as such.

 

What then happens is that the established player base of those who made it through just don't want others to water down their sense of an achievement. Any VIP club just is / stays as long VIP as it isn't available for the masses.

 

And Progression Raiding / End Game Raiding (especially NIM) is the highest tier of an VIP club in SWTOR - apart from Ranked PvP, which is like a sister or brother tier (in fact I see PvP & PvE like 2 branches of the same tree, nothing else).

 

To me, this means that if people don't want their "VIPness" to be watered down, then they've got to defend what they have achieved - they've got to defend the VIP club's entrance from being flooded by the masses. This is the only logical consequence.

 

Because any VIP club is senseless if masses can freely enter it.

 

And that's why there is such an hash and unforgiving argumentation against making SM mode OPs more accessible for the masses : Because this SM mode is like the first step of stairs up into an VIP club. Not everyone is meant to be able to enter. And this first step is merely the very first one in / of a series of filters / funnels.

 

And this is this war here in these forums that is currently going on :

 

Elitists (PvP & PvE alike) defending their VIP club doors against those masses who want to enter this VIP club as well - because if they'd let the masses in, it wouldn't be "VIP" anymore - and that's just bad for those who WNT to be VIP and are already "arrived Raiders".

 

And "Arrived Raiders" would like to keep everyone out, until he or she has been provinghimself or herslf worthy of entering. Equals among Equals.

 

And they look down from a point "standing on higher ground", down upon the masses which are doing that "rat race".

 

This is one of the reasons why I actually believe now that the human race is in fact a "pack race", like a pack of wolves.

 

There are Alpha- Beta- and Gamma-Animals in the pack, and a clear hierarchy.

 

You can see human hierarchy very clearly in firms, in companies, yes even in governments. The existence of Kings & Queens alone tells us that we are in fact "hierachy beings".

 

And the hierarchy in MMORPGs is merely another expression of the human hierarchy race (word-game).

[JDotter]

You have to spread your sight at different levels. For a professional nerd, a bh is just a tool to increase the output performance, especially if the gear is not fully optimized for a usual revan kill. But my example in previous post is just a another point of the utility of this class. I have no idea at which point the most teams are wiping at p3, but a hard enrage (unsurvivable heave) wipe after a absolute flawless gameplay (group setup doesnt matter in this case) should not happen really often.

 

With a sorc/sage you can survive up to 90 stacks. If people are wiping to stacks that is 100% the raids dps.

 

I think most people are wiping to purple circles.

 

Most people don't have the ability to keep track on floor three ( pull in/out), rotate to face purples, and having 8 people be accountable for doing that for 4-7 sets. Losing one dps is a wipe in 9/10 groups.

 

The mechanic is rather simple it just heightened personal accountability to a level most can't handle.