Is it time to refresh the Subscriber/F2P model?

[dscount]

Yea... I'm a sub because the credit cap sucks and I really dislike not having unlimited access to Operations.

 

Sure I can go preferred and keep a bunch of operation passes around, but not worth the headache.

 

Over the last year I've pretty much stocked up on all the F2P unlocks so when I do decided to take a break (Which based on lack of content is soon) I'll be good to go.

 

As for comparison to ESOL (F2P vs B2P) you do have some serious uphill pissing into the wind to win that argument. I don't think it's worth the time/effort trying to convince people otherwise.

 

Like the game.. SUB.. jeez. A movie without popcorn can run you the cost of a SUB for the month. LOL

[GrimRita]

What has amazed me, are those so blinkered to see the benefits to everyone if SWTOR changed its so called F2P model. Numbers are falling - the servers are Light 80% of the day. Its been F2P for 2 years, and yes it gave the game a shot in the arm but things are going south again.

 

This isn't an argument that ESO is better, its about how their new B2P is a game changer. A total game changer. Can you really expect someone who is F2P in SWTOR to pay 400cc for a pass to play 4 year old content? If the answer is yes, take a long hard look around - the servers are becoming empty for a reason.

[danielearley]

 

With Elder Scrolls going free to play, what stunned me was their brilliant move in attracting new players. Could and should Bioware stop this nickle and diming of the game? It's been 2 years now and clearly numbers across all servers are in decline. My guild alone lost over 120 subs this past month and I can't be alone.

 

The Boxed product & Trials

ESO you must first buy the product but SWTOR could still offer the home planets as totally free, unrestricted until they hit level 10.

 

Why?

This game is now 4 years old so its essential to give new players a trial, WITHOUT draconian restrictions

 

Removing restrictions for ALL

New players should be welcomed in to the game and not greeted with relentless pay walls - hell even subscribers are bombarded with that 'Cartel coin' sign.

 

Why?

Removing the limits to operations, warzones and flashpoints means that the servers will get busier. Players will no longer have to manage their game time around weekends when the game is a bit busier. This will ensure a healthy population through most of the day - instead of the word 'light' for 80% of the day,

 

Subscribers.

If players wish to subscribe, they should get more benefits instead of just 500 silly coins. ESO gives more coins the longer you sub, in addition to other boosts.

 

An example -

1500 crowns at the start of each 30-day membership period

Access to all downloadable content for the duration of membership

Exclusive character progression bonuses for the duration of membership

10% bonus to experience point gain

10% bonus to crafting research

10% bonus to crafting inspiration gain

10% bonus to gold acquisition

 

SWTOR could adopt something along these lines. Outside of patch updates, any new operations and Warzones (LOL) would only be open to those who currently subscribe.

 

It really is time to step away from how things currently are and unless there is a shake up, the decline in numbers will keep going.

 

 

Firstly ESO went buy to pay as they realised they were unable to do the Subscription model on Consoles..

They were also bleeding Subs at an alarming rate due to Bugs and Lag, these are still in the game now.

I Pre-ordered and Played ESO and suffered the appalling state of the game, currently the Crown store is like STWOR where currently it sells Cosmetic items, however with the imminent addition of XP boosts this will turn the game to P2W due to how the Champion System has been created.

 

It has been mentioned you are actually comparing apples and pears. SWTOR you don't need to pay anything to play, ESO you have to buy the game before playing.

Currently in my opinion SWTOR is doing F2P well, whereas if you want to play the story lines and see how the game plays you can with ease, but if you want to do the extra's within the game you have to invest in the game.

[Ghisallo]

I forgot about the Champion system and how the exp boosts would effect that. Also remember that a subscriber will get a base 10% boost so even without the stuff sold on store (which goes beyond exp pots for stuff useful in game) so non-subs will be behind before you add in the cash shop.

 

I would debate one thing. You can put a sub on a console game (technically). Its just that since console players are already paying Sony or Microsoft to play online many console players refuse.

 

Back to the Champion system...is it a coincidence that the announce f2p with the stuff about xp bonuses etc around the same time as they announce the Champion system?

 

What I love the most i think though is that people are comparing a game that now clearly has most if not all MMO check boxes ticked off to a game that is by their own admission not really an MMO and is more like a AC:U or DA:I on steroids.

[Kalfear]

This isn't an argument that ESO is better, its about how their new B2P is a game changer. A total game changer. Can you really expect someone who is F2P in SWTOR to pay 400cc for a pass to play 4 year old content? If the answer is yes, take a long hard look around - the servers are becoming empty for a reason.

 

No one denies SW:TOR losing subs

People deny ESO B2P is the solution

You have exactly ZERO evidence that switching to ESO B2P system would help SW:TOR (or that it will even help ESO) because it hasn't been around long enough to accurately judge

 

PREVIOUS Games that were B2P were not money makers and sustained themselves on small revenue gains that SW:TOR already massively out preforms.

 

The ONLY sure fire fix to SW:TOR is for the devs to make better updates, make a better game, bring SW:TOR the product to the level it should have been at the get go. Do that and they will win back subs.

 

Go your route and they lose even more revenue (based on MMORPG history)

 

 

What I love the most i think though is that people are comparing a game that now clearly has most if not all MMO check boxes ticked off to a game that is by their own admission not really an MMO and is more like a AC:U or DA:I on steroids.

 

Have no clue what this was even attempting to mean

It sounds like you are congratulating yourself on some unknown statement but makes no sense at all

[Ghisallo]

No... earlier (or maybe in the other thread) I pointed out that simply as games comparing SWTOR to ESO is an apples to oranges comparison. The Boss of ESO went so far as to say in an interview that ESO is more a multiplayer version of ESO and not an MMO.

 

There are enough differences in the very nature of the two games that the demographics they attract are different. If you are going to compare SWTOR to other games, and how they succeed and/or fail, I just think you need to compare it to gamees that are solidly similar.

 

However in thread after thread I have seen...ESO this and ESO that, whether it be about their version of the financial model or a perceived more stable game (when most people I know think ESO is even more buggy), regardless of how inappropriate the comparison is because the games are actually pretty different, at least imo.

 

By the way I agree with you on what SWTOR needs to do to fix things. It APPEARS that Bioware agrees as well. From everything I have read, since they added GSF, Strongholds etc, they are now going to try and speed up the "general" content development cycle. If they can feed us content updates every 5 months or so, AND have it stable of course, that would go a long way to fixing the issue imo.

 

At GDC 2013 the devs her admitted they launched without enough content and the "community" stuff that makes an MMO an MMO. For the time being I am willing to put off everything up to SoR as basically repairing the foundation. Now they have to show they can build on that foundation adequately.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Ghisallo

[LyraineAlei]

I like the up-to-50 with restrictions that the game already has for F2P. I do think Prefs should at least get access to post in the CS forum, and have it moderated, but that's almost another topic.

 

I started playing when I was living at my parents' home, trying to find a job in a tiny town without a car, and without having been one of those "old" families. Not any luck, but to stave off depression (or at least feed my ego for a bit), I played SWTOR, and said that I'd play the F2P model until I got a job and could pay for the subscription and get all those pretty QoL stuff.

 

Here I am, and I've been paying after about my fifth month of playing. My main was on Belsavis at the time I got a job and could pay for the subscription. During my F2P time, yes I did get annoyed by the chat restrictions for when I wanted to offer help to someone, but I think that was it. And character slots, but I sub and got more of those.

 

A lot of the cosmetic stuff bothered me because my characters looked really tacky. Wound up buying some moddable set with comms and used that as my 'outfit'. Because subs get the QoL cosmetic stuff. The class stories don't drastically change depending on your specie, just a few throw away lines. Having a huge number of alts doesn't change anything for one character to another except to you.

 

Fun fact, the 60-day time card costs me about three hours of work, with change for other stuff.

 

TL;DR: I think the F2P model is fine, but maybe a small perk to Prefs since they have paid some amount, even $5, to the game, but the perk should be something smallish, like maybe CS forum.

[DarthCasus]

To be blunt? I would make it free up to lvl 20. You want to play after lvl 20? Pay, period.

 

I just don't understand the thinking that says, "aww, someone doesn't want to pay anything, but they want the whole game for free, and no "grind" issues".

 

Bleah, bunch of nonsense if you ask me.

 

Pay up if you play, if you like the game, compensate the company that makes it. No excuses. If you don't have the money, then you shouldn't be spending your time playing computer games anyway.

 

Then it's a very good thing you aren't running the game. Breaking past the lvl 20 point is what made me sub. You see the losses and weight your options. "Did I enjoy the content they provided me with so far? Do I want to continue on unhindered?" Those are questions I asked myself at lvl 30 as I slumped through Alderaan with 2 friends. We all 3 ended up subbing and have continued to as time permits. Cutting people off at lvl 20 and giving them a certain ultimatum is reckless and arrogant, as if this game needs more of that.

 

It doesn't take long into these threads for people with complete disgust and disdain for players trying out a product to show up and whine about the whiners. "Pay up" is a dumb counter. Would you turn on a phone for 20 minutes and look through the first set of pre-downloaded apps before deciding "Yeah, I like this. Take my money."? (Not the best analogy but the gist is there.)

 

There will be freebie whiners but attitudes like this paint subs of the community of an ill nature.

[GrimRita]

 

 

 

Firstly ESO went buy to pay as they realised they were unable to do the Subscription model on Consoles..

They were also bleeding Subs at an alarming rate due to Bugs and Lag, these are still in the game now.

.

 

SWTOR went free to play for the same reasons. But remember, ESO is around 1 year old and the content in SWTOR is 4 years old. The current F2P which worked as a shot in the arm, isn't attracting new blood or retaining many players. With 2 new MMOs released last year and both unable to keep a strong subs base, I didn't expect ESO to deliver a strong B2P model.

 

Think how many returning players may come back if SWTOR went down the B2P route. Bioware could, open the door to these old players and see if it actually works. A busy game, is a popular game.

[Orizuru]

SWTOR went free to play for the same reasons. But remember, ESO is around 1 year old and the content in SWTOR is 4 years old. The current F2P which worked as a shot in the arm, isn't attracting new blood or retaining many players. With 2 new MMOs released last year and both unable to keep a strong subs base, I didn't expect ESO to deliver a strong B2P model.

 

Think how many returning players may come back if SWTOR went down the B2P route. Bioware could, open the door to these old players and see if it actually works. A busy game, is a popular game.

 

The majority of the players that this would appeal to are not the players that eventually buy subs. They're more likely to be the type of players who consume the free content as much as possible before moving on to the next game.

[Atree]

I am really hoping with the new movie coming out this year, that we will see an up beat in subs and players. With that, we should see Bioware putting out more and more meaningful patches and updates. I love Bioware, but I am not convinced on them successfully managing an MMO especially one that is the biggest and most famous franchise ever, Star Wars.

[Kalfear]

I am really hoping with the new movie coming out this year, that we will see an up beat in subs and players. With that, we should see Bioware putting out more and more meaningful patches and updates. I love Bioware, but I am not convinced on them successfully managing an MMO especially one that is the biggest and most famous franchise ever, Star Wars.

 

Bioware is just a name now

All the talent that made Bioware great back in the day have moved on and no longer apart of EAs version of Bioware

 

Really wish people would understand this simple truth.

The modern version of Bioware is just EA with different headers on their business cards

 

As for Attracting new subs.

Im sure the movie will bump subscriptions in the short term

But unless the devs change their thought process and start working towards making better content, fuller content, bigger content

Those new subs will come and go in short order

 

The ONLY sure fire way to attract and retain more subs is to do a better job on development, design, and community interaction.

 

Until that happens, I wouldn't expect any serious lasting upturn in subscriptions

 

The EA developers just need to do a better job

[Cupelixx]

I can see both sides of the argument. No, they shouldn't give the entire game + perks away for free. However, taking away features that were already in the game (quick bars, customization etc) and locking them behind a paywall is a bad strategy. The reason the game continues to do poorly and lose subs over time is that the game is not really worth a sub.

 

I dropped my sub again because the quality aspects of this game are completely tainted by immersion-breaking and game-breaking bugs, and the game is completely unplayable on a high end system because of s--- performance. Then you throw in a mediocre f2p system, promise even more content (which was never followed through on), and let things go unaddressed for years. Where is the value in subbing to that when my only real motivation for doing so is to not be punished with chat restrictions and nerfed XP gains?

 

The subscription model should focus on "cool things" for subscribers. Subscription only character customization colors, bonus XP, repair discounts. The possibilities are endless. Instead, here you get access to features in the game when it launched.

 

ESO may not be perfect but they have the right idea. I honestly hated the beta and determined then I wouldn't buy it or sub. After looking at what they improved in the last year, I figured why not. I'll take a flyer and buy my wife and I a copy and we'll see how it goes. There are bugs here and there and the occasional frustration. But the game was so enjoyable with a wealth of things to do, that we both subbed. Access to new content as long as we sub. Bonuses to character advancement, not just the 100% baseline. If the sub model had been "you get access to features already in the game", I would have never purchased it let alone subbed.

 

The point? When the only real perks to subbing is avoiding draconian reductions to QoL in a f2p game, most people are going to get their fill of the quality content (class stories), never spend a dime and move on to something else. I said the model was a mistake when f2p was announced and I stand by it. The short-term gains were there but now the game and its population are dying out again.

[GrimRita]

I am really hoping with the new movie coming out this year, that we will see an up beat in subs and players. With that, we should see Bioware putting out more and more meaningful patches and updates. I love Bioware, but I am not convinced on them successfully managing an MMO especially one that is the biggest and most famous franchise ever, Star Wars.

 

The game is just on life support now until Episode 7 hits. Then flood the game with cartel related crap, cash in, then announce the shutting down for 2016/17 as the licence won't be renewed.

[AmericanNate]

The game is just on life support now until Episode 7 hits. Then flood the game with cartel related crap, cash in, then announce the shutting down for 2016/17 as the licence won't be renewed.

 

License was already renewed. Try again.

[Anaesha]

The game is just on life support now until Episode 7 hits. Then flood the game with cartel related crap, cash in, then announce the shutting down for 2016/17 as the licence won't be renewed.

 

Here is a question. If you dislike the game so much why are you even still here? If I don't like a game I don't stick around throwing money at it .

Edited March 31, 2015 by Anaesha

[GrimRita]

Here is a question. If you dislike the game so much why are you even still here? If I don't like a game I don't stick around throwing money at it .

 

I'm not. Sub is on run down until it expires. But the truth does hurt I guess. And this is to discuss the benefits (if any) of SWTOR moving to a different F2P model.

[Atree]

The ONLY sure fire way to attract and retain more subs is to do a better job on development, design, and community interaction.

 

I am nervous to say, it has been 4 years since the launch of this game. Are we really to believe that Bio/EA will do anything differently? Knowing EA, I unfortunately will say no they won't. The only saving grace that I can see if Disney (who now own Lucasarts) steps in and rules with an iron fist. Telling EA that this is the flagship franchise, either shape up or ship out.

[AmericanNate]

I am nervous to say, it has been 4 years since the launch of this game. Are we really to believe that Bio/EA will do anything differently? Knowing EA, I unfortunately will say no they won't. The only saving grace that I can see if Disney (who now own Lucasarts) steps in and rules with an iron fist. Telling EA that this is the flagship franchise, either shape up or ship out.

 

Disney will likely do nada. TOR is Bioware's IP. It doesn't interfere with what they will do with the prime timeline, and EA has been given the license to create games for the Star Wars name for the next 10 years, including this one. Why? Plain and simple, because they make money. And Disney corporate execs are interested in doing exactly that. That's why they bought it. To make money. And whether players like them or not, that's exactly what EA does. If Disney wanted to create, manage, and publish games with their vision of Star Wars, they would have made their own game division. Instead, they contacted a proven commodity to make their games for them. Let's not delude ourselves here.

[Ghisallo]

License was already renewed. Try again.

 

Yeah I love how people miss it was renewed shortly after Disney bought the IP. I don't know if it is simply wishful thinking, trolling or ignorance.

[Kalfear]

I am nervous to say, it has been 4 years since the launch of this game. Are we really to believe that Bio/EA will do anything differently? Knowing EA, I unfortunately will say no they won't. The only saving grace that I can see if Disney (who now own Lucasarts) steps in and rules with an iron fist. Telling EA that this is the flagship franchise, either shape up or ship out.

 

honestly I have no faith they will do a better job either Atree

 

But thats what they need to do to attract and retain more subs.

 

Up their production

Up their standards

Up their quality

make a better product that's so addictive people will want to play long term

 

And honestly, its not as hard or overwhelming as it sounds.

All the answers are out there already over the last 24 years of the MMORPG genre

just need Devs to stop looking at WOW and start looking at everything to see what works and what doesn't.

[Ghisallo]

I'm not. Sub is on run down until it expires. But the truth does hurt I guess. And this is to discuss the benefits (if any) of SWTOR moving to a different F2P model.

 

How can you talk about a truth...vs a personal opinion...when you can't get a simple fact straight such as the fact that Disney and EA signed a long term contract regarding EA continuing to developed and maintain Star Wars titles?

[Lordkoon]

EA voted worst company 3 years in a row due to their money squeezing rules about the games they make, amongst other things, (and not paying their employees for months some time ago) to change the subscription/f2p plans ? If that happens EVER I promise I WILL eat my shoe. Edited April 1, 2015 by Lordkoon

[Ghisallo]

EA voted worst company 3 years in a row due to their money squeezing rules about the games they make, amongst other things, (and not paying their employees for months some time ago) to change the subscription/f2p plans ? If that happens EVER I promise I WILL eat my shoe.

 

Actually twice...they didn't even make the final 4 last year. They were pushed out of their bracket by Time Warner...Comcast took the crown..http://consumerist.com/2014/04/08/congratulations-to-comcast-your-2014-worst-company-in-america/

 

Thing is...while the poll does create public pressure it is not exactly a gold standard of accuracy because it is an option poll rather than say a random poll by something like Gallup. To illustrate this issue Koch industries...I hate the slimy brothers BUT when you look at sources like Glassdoor and Indeed it is a good company to work for. Basically the politics of the owners get them on the list. A&F gets there not because of its product quality or work environment but because he does the same thing "designer labels" do every day...make clothing for a particular body image. Where is DKNY on the list then?

 

Translation its a poll that essentially harneses nerd rage.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Ghisallo

[eartharioch]

No... earlier (or maybe in the other thread) I pointed out that simply as games comparing SWTOR to ESO is an apples to oranges comparison. The Boss of ESO went so far as to say in an interview that ESO is more a multiplayer version of ESO and not an MMO.

 

There are enough differences in the very nature of the two games that the demographics they attract are different. If you are going to compare SWTOR to other games, and how they succeed and/or fail, I just think you need to compare it to gamees that are solidly similar.

 

However in thread after thread I have seen...ESO this and ESO that, whether it be about their version of the financial model or a perceived more stable game (when most people I know think ESO is even more buggy), regardless of how inappropriate the comparison is because the games are actually pretty different, at least imo.

 

By the way I agree with you on what SWTOR needs to do to fix things. It APPEARS that Bioware agrees as well. From everything I have read, since they added GSF, Strongholds etc, they are now going to try and speed up the "general" content development cycle. If they can feed us content updates every 5 months or so, AND have it stable of course, that would go a long way to fixing the issue imo.

 

At GDC 2013 the devs her admitted they launched without enough content and the "community" stuff that makes an MMO an MMO. For the time being I am willing to put off everything up to SoR as basically repairing the foundation. Now they have to show they can build on that foundation adequately.

 

As you noted, SWTOR was designed and released as multiplayer TOR...it was done so *despite* both customer (and arguably developer) preferences, and while BW has further dumbed down the game to accommodate the MMO crowd, they haven't had any actual success*. GSF was a complete failure *because* it is multiplayer only, and GSH was one of the most pathetically obvious (and implemented) attempts to check off a box that I've ever seen (even ST:TNG would be ashamed).

 

* They've made money and kept people strung along, so they've had some *financial* success, so their investors are happy (this quarter), but *player* satisfaction (e.g., *critical* success) is still abysmal. People lined up to play a multiplayer BW TOR at launch -- when SWTOR can get those numbers back, then you can talk about repairing a foundation upon which to build.