Do something with SM Underlurker already, TOS has been wasting for nearly 4 months

[Pietrastor]

Yes, voice-chatting seasoned raiders can get past this boss, more casual guilds let alone PUGs roadblock on it over and over. You've admitted yourself only a fraction fo players bothers with TOS, what could possibly be the reason oh my? Maybe because most assume the run won't finish more than 2 bosses? This is the worst SM balancing in any ops in the game ever released, forget the EC Tanks or DP Council, this boss is overdone on every aspect in story mode.

 

It's been 4 MONTHS already, we're gonna be approaching halfway point of the current 2 operations' main life cycle soon and most still either haven't seen 4th and 5th bosses or only few times thx to lockout run.

 

HM level of dps, healing, tacs and co-ordination belong in HM modes.

[Bachannal]

Yea...I've only even seen the Underlurker a couple of times...all wipes. 1st time I can fully claim responsibility...the OP was brand new and i was not prepared for the DPS checks. But going back with competent teams and still having issues on that one boss? I just stopped bothering the attempt.

 

I'd like to get through the op at some point, but stopped holding my breath on it a long time ago. I'll just wait till I'm way overgeared and then try it, lol.

[FerkWork]

I've done it in pug runs many times without voice. Yes while it's not a boss you can faceroll and be super overgeared like the end of 2.0. While the adds could have slightly less HP it's fine mechanics wise. Run 5 DPS and parse a measly 2.7k DPS and stack for heals. Ignore adds after 4th cross. Simple as pie. Mmmmm pie.

 

Also, many People asked for more difficult content after claiming DF/DP were to easy after last batch so this is what got.

[Pietrastor]

Also, many People asked for more difficult content after claiming DF/DP were to easy after last batch so this is what got.

Why are HM/NiM raiders asking for more difficult SM opses?

[Cypherz]

Why are HM/NiM raiders asking for more difficult SM opses?

 

Fun fact: the 1% of groups that can actually clear the content at the highest level were the only ones testing the content during closed PTS, and until Bioware makes a fight that is virtually 100% impossible to beat, that 1% of players will always say the content is too easy. That is a major part of why we're in the situation we're in now with HM level mechanics present in SM and NiM level mechanics present in HM.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Cypherz

[JouerTue]

pugged 6 times last week and twice this week. no voice chat, all pugs, mostly alts. only one failed.

[FerkWork]

Why are HM/NiM raiders asking for more difficult SM opses?

 

From my understanding many casual people (I also would call myself a casual raider) people as well called for less boring OP's. Which isn't entirely true about the old ops. The main reason why they were easy was due to overgearing. Draxus back in the day was a major pug killer.

 

I wasn't on PTS and I enjoy the content both HM and SM and don't see how it's a major advantage. Most groups that fail Underbugger just aren't parsing that good from what I saw.

Edited March 24, 2015 by FerkWork

[DarthVitrial]

Fun fact: the 1% of groups that can actually clear the content at the highest level were the only ones testing the content during closed PTS, and until Bioware makes a fight that is virtually 100% impossible to beat, that 1% of players will always say the content is too easy. That is a major part of why we're in the situation we're in now with HM level mechanics present in SM and NiM level mechanics present in HM.

 

If I recall, even the hardcore raiders thought the SM ops felt overtuned when we were testing SOR. Not to the extent that casuals do now, but I remember people commenting that they felt a lot harder than other SM ops,

Edited March 24, 2015 by DarthVitrial

[BrianDavion]

If I recall, even the hardcore raiders thought the SM ops felt overtuned when we were testing SOR. Not to the extent that casuals do now, but I remember people commenting that they felt a lot harder than other SM ops,

 

Maybe so but he's right that this is a direct result of BW picking and choosing who to test these raids. because 3.0 was a closed process the feedback they got was warped. as the only raid groups that where all in there together where the hard cores. had they had some open testing periods they could have gotten more casual raid groups in. Honestly I saw this problem coming the minute they explained the selection process for 3.0. when 2.0 launched they specificly allowed people to log in and test the end game content. hiding the story quests behind a lock but allowing EVERYONE to test the raids

[Pietrastor]

pugged 6 times last week and twice this week. no voice chat, all pugs, mostly alts. only one failed.

Sure sure, I pugged 18 times last week every single run 1-shoted, I swear

[NigeldeJ]

It's fine, if you feel like it's too much to ask for the average joe to stand in a certain place every now and then, instead of just mindlessly pewpewing the boss, then that's pretty lame.

 

If they can't follow simple orders like: stand on the right of the boss when there's a big-*** cross underneath him, or: take cover when he does a certain cast, then they shouldn't be raiding in the first place. Same goes for not standing in big red circles, apparently that's too much to ask for too. Coming from a guy that hasn't even touched the HM ops of the current tier.

[eartharioch]

It's fine, if you feel like it's too much to ask for the average joe to stand in a certain place every now and then, instead of just mindlessly pewpewing the boss, then that's pretty lame.

 

If they can't follow simple orders like: stand on the right of the boss when there's a big-*** cross underneath him, or: take cover when he does a certain cast, then they shouldn't be raiding in the first place. Same goes for not standing in big red circles, apparently that's too much to ask for too. Coming from a guy that hasn't even touched the HM ops of the current tier.

 

It's kind of hard to avoid the circles that don't appear until after you start taking damage, and when you spend most of your time trying to complete mechanics that the engine can't handle reliably, your dps goes down a lot even if you don't die.

 

BW improved the hitching / ability delays enough in January that I could complete Lurker (in 8-man, with a good team, at least), but after the last patch, performance slipped a bit (not as bad as at launch, but enough to drop my dps 50%).

 

I think the mechanics are interesting, I just wish that player skill (not that I'm great) was more of a factor than system specs -- at least in sm.

Edited March 25, 2015 by eartharioch

[Excise]

As mentioned above, even during the Beta folks were saying that SM was way harder than previous Ops.

 

As for who BW selects to test, part of this isn't their fault simply because the hardcore crowd are more likely to repeatedly organize and run Operations on the PTS, even if both hardcore and casuals are invited to the Beta.

[Kyuuu]

I think HM mechanics are really NIM mechanics in these OPS and SM really HM or atlest some parts, they just not telling us that. then again what i know

[Galdos]

Personally, I feel like the only issue with him is the enrage timer is way to close. Thats it, add like another 30 seconds or a minute and I personally would think Underlurker story is just fine.

[RandyL]

I think the mechanics are interesting, I just wish that player skill (not that I'm great) was more of a factor than system specs -- at least in sm.

 

I don't find the mechanics at all interesting. Actually I find them lazy and boring, and unnecessarily difficult due to engine limitations. Running to the left, right, front, back of a cross is just a dumb mechanic. It doesn't make any sense for a monster to have such an ability. The monster conveniently marks where DPS, Healers and tanks should stand so you can kill him. Huh? Maybe that made sense to the dev that thought of it "hey, we'll make it a bit easier!" it just looks like a clusterf%^^ of blue, red, green to me on my screen. I mean, why not have the Underlurker yell out "You need one more healer on the left of me or I'm going to hurt you bad!"

 

While it wouldn't be any more interesting, they could at least make this fight tolerable in SM by increasing the spawn timer of the adds or something. I've changed my camera settings for this fight and turned off nameplates and this is still very difficult to complete in my 8m guild raid group. As of today I've only done it on 16m, and that was with an experienced guild raid run and after wiping 5 or 6 times.

 

Nerf it already. HM can be HM. SM should not be HM.

Edited March 25, 2015 by RandyL

[Toweleeeie]

The problem is one bad dps like 1500 dps can make the fight impossible PuGing. I would lower add health a little bit and increase enrage timer by 30 seconds. Leave HM as is.

[eartharioch]

I don't find the mechanics at all interesting. Actually I find them lazy and boring, and unnecessarily difficult due to engine limitations. Difficult =/= interesting or fun to me. Running to the left, right, front, back of a cross is just a dumb mechanic IMO. It doesn't make any sense for a monster to have such an ability. The monster conveniently marks where DPS, Healers and tanks should stand so you can kill him. Huh? Maybe that made sense to the dev that thought of it "hey, we'll make it a bit easier!" it just looks like a clusterf%^^ of blue, red, green to me on my screen.

 

While it wouldn't be any more interesting, they could at least make this fight tolerable in SM by increasing the spawn timer of the adds or something. I've changed my camera settings for this fight and turned off nameplates and this is still very difficult to complete in my 8m guild raid group. As of today I've only done it on 16m, and that was with an experienced guild raid run and after wiping 5 or 6 times.

 

Nerf it already. HM can be HM. SM should not be HM.

 

There is obviously some suspension of realism necessary for a game. I like the fact that the cross mechanics are pretty clearly marked in game -- although it would be more "interesting" if the positions varied [in HM] (so that SM was more learning how the mechanic worked, and then HM added an additional challenge). I don't like it when I have to act off of a script (like using timers).

 

That said, the rest of what you said was the point I was trying to make -- it's not that the mechanics themselves are bad (red circles appear, rocks drop in them a bit later, then you have to move behind rocks), it's that (at least on SM) the timings are too tight for what should be expected to be average performance. I have a mid-range machine and set graphics accordingly, I'd like the [sM] timers to be loose enough to accommodate that. I'm ok with the higher level (HM and NiM) versions being too tight for my machine, otherwise people with better machines could just "pay to win" that way, but SM should at least be accessible to everybody meeting the developer's published specs.

[FerkWork]

I still don't see what's wrong with it. I run the game off a Macbook via bootcamp with regular lag spikes and don't find this boss hard at all.

To clear it you need 13000 DPS. With 4 DPS its only 3.2k per DPS while with 5 it's even lower at 2500 DPS and even lower with a tank throwing out 1500-2000 DPS.

It's a problem of many people thinking they are doing good DPS when they aren't. Get in Parsec or Starparse and record your DPS on dummy parses. If it's up time that's the problem then drag boss on top of adds for AOE and make sure to not waste cooldowns.

 

Two other solutions involving PT's, cast oil slick right before rage storm underneath Lurker then have everyone stack under him and burn him some more. You will take absurdly little damage.

If cross is problem have everyone stack right underneath boss and at 2.5 seconds on cast fire AOE to Sonic rebound it.

Edited March 25, 2015 by FerkWork

[Toweleeeie]

I still don't see what's wrong with it. I run the game off a Macbook via bootcamp with regular lag spikes and don't find this boss hard at all.

To clear it you need 13000 DPS. With 4 DPS its only 3.2k per DPS while with 5 it's even lower at 2500 DPS and even lower with a tank throwing out 1500-2000 DPS.

It's a problem of many people thinking they are doing good DPS when they aren't. Get in Parsec or Starparse and record your DPS on dummy parses. If it's up time that's the problem then drag boss on top of adds for AOE and make sure to not waste cooldowns.

 

Two other solutions involving PT's, cast oil slick right before rage storm underneath Lurker then have everyone stack under him and burn him some more. You will take absurdly little damage.

If cross is problem have everyone stack right underneath boss and at 2.5 seconds on cast fire AOE to Sonic rebound it.

 

SM raiders are not going to parse. To ask that is ridicules. The mechanics should be killing PuGs not dps checks.

[FerkWork]

SM raiders are not going to parse. To ask that is ridicules. The mechanics should be killing PuGs not dps checks.

 

In my experience both kill them. Pugs love eating scatterblast by running circles around Bulo..

Maybe they would parse if they understood the importance of DPS. They should parse if not on the boss then a dummy. Otherwise how can you improve? And why must content not provide a sort of challenge albeit a small one?

Edited March 25, 2015 by FerkWork

[eartharioch]

SM raiders are not going to parse. To ask that is ridicules. The mechanics should be killing PuGs not dps checks.

 

SM-4-Lyfers may not parse, but people who'd like to start at SM and make it to HM will. Not saying people in random GF pugs should expect people to use a parser during the raid, but people looking to make to HM should at least start using parsers privately.

 

Any boss with an enrage timer is a dps check -- that's not the problem. The problem is that the dps check values are *so* much higher than what is required to get to into the operation that there's no middle ground (like when there were real FPs).

[RandyL]

In my experience both kill them. Pugs love eating scatterblast by running circles around Bulo..

Maybe they would parse if they understood the importance of DPS. They should parse if not on the boss then a dummy. Otherwise how can you improve? And why must content not provide a sort of challenge albeit a small one?

 

Actually, I agree parsing is a good idea - for HM and NIM. I just don't think parsing for a SM ops should ever be necessary. Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree on that point. A lot of casual players will never get in a raid. That's sad but true. But to then expect them to download a parsing program and be running it for SM? You can't even get a lot of people in voice comms these days.

 

That said, parsing on a dummy is absolutely nothing like parsing on a boss like Underlurker. In fact I'd argue getting some awesome rotation down on a dummy would do little benefit in an actual fight like this where you're constantly on the move and fighting multiple enemies on the run. Maybe a tank's rotation would be similar, but a DPS?

[Toweleeeie]

In my experience both kill them. Pugs love eating scatterblast by running circles around Bulo..

Maybe they would parse if they understood the importance of DPS. They should parse if not on the boss then a dummy. Otherwise how can you improve? And why must content not provide a sort of challenge albeit a small one?

 

A challenge I agree, but not one that requires someone to use a 3rd party program to beat content. Less then 1% of the population has downed Underlurker SM. Story Mode! That's a problem if they want to retain casual subs. The real issue I think is that the hardest boss in ToS is the 2nd boss and not the last one.

 

Don't get me wrong I think SM is very easy and is very PuGable for the most part. But I'm one of those ******es who ask for achievement for Underlurker when PuGing. The crowd this game mostly draws will not parse and just wants to see the story.

 

I'm 3/5 ToS and 2/5 Rav HMs to add perspective.

[RandyL]

Less then 1% of the population has downed Underlurker SM. Story Mode! That's a problem if they want to retain casual subs.

 

I figured it would be low, but where does this stat come from?