Bomber Classes Negate Necessary Skill

[MasterAtin]

Does anyone else think the Bomber Classes are too easy to use?

 

It seems as though whenever a team is losing, and they all (or most) switch to the bomber class, they can easily turn the match around in their favor.

 

I've come to relate how their mines resemble piles of dog crap. Can be hard to see, and if you're not paying attention, you can "walk", or fly in this case, right into them. Sure they're easy to kill. 150 hp and stationary, but f you're trying to focus objectives, it can really be a hassle to take out the mines, get close to satellite, and keep an eye out for the bomber, in which their laser canons are hard hitters.

 

It doesn't take much skill I think, to use a bomber class. Most bombers have turrets/mines that are easily deployed, and they never miss their target. Meanwhile, after making several "dog piles" around the satellite, bomber user can leisurely fly circles and let their mines/turrets do the heavy lifting.

 

I'm guess someone's gonna say they do take skill. Nevertheless, dogfighting and 'sniping' with gunships takes tactics and precision. Things that I think bombers do not require.

[Bolo_Yeung]

I disagree. While some aspect of the bomber classes are slightly OPed (like drones turning 180 percent in split second and having 300% accuracy), most of the mines have an easy counter - EMP missile, AoE ion rail...

 

And no-skilled bomber is still an easy pick.

[Nemarus]

I wouldn't say Bombers negate skill.

 

The biggest problem with Bombers is that they take little skill to use effectively, but a higher level of skill to counter effectively. So it is easy and common to find yourself in a match where lots of unskilled pilots are in Bombers, and there are not enough skilled pilots to effectively counter them. Additionally, often times the best counter to a Bomber is another Bomber.

 

The thing is ... without Bombers, you would find that BLC Scouts dominate the game, especially in Domination--that's how it was prior to Bombers being added.

 

Yes, dominating in a BLC Scout requires a little bit more skill than dropping mines, but that game involved no strategy. There was no meta but Battlescout.

 

Bombers are not perfect, and in large swarms they can ruin a match too. But if people don't go overboard, they can add valuable and interesting texture to the game.

 

What the game really needs is for Strikes to be the best counter for Bombers, and for countering a Bomber in a Strike to be as easy as flying one.

[Caernos]

I think where a bomber's skill most comes into play is when they're trying to move between areas.

 

Compared to the other ships in game, bombers fly like wallowing hutts, crawling along at a slug's pace. It makes them very easy targets if they're caught out in the open. Out in the open the chances of an enemy running into their mines and drones is greatly reduced than when flying around defensive cover or a satellite. Once they get onto a sat or an enclosed area, then their mines and drones become more deadly as their enemies can't maneuver as effectively and will run into those systems far more often.

 

But I would argue that getting from point A to B is where you really need skill flying a bomber.

 

That's just my opinion though.

[Drakkolich]

I don't think there is a problem in saying Bombers have an easier time doing the damage they can do. However saying there is zero skill in playing the Bomber class is a big mistake. There are many things you can do as a Bomber to be even better then the starting point of "Drop your drones and mines and circle the satelite".

 

Living under pressure in a Bomber is where the good pilots really shine. Positioning of everything is so important. You have to know where you are, where they are and where your mines/drones are or are going to be when you put them down.

 

I'd definitely say they are a nice starting point for newer players, you get to practice aiming and flying while still feeling like you're helping your team with all that extra easy damage they can do.

 

Maybe I need to make a couple of videos on all the extra stuff you can do to squeeze all the potential out of the Bombers.

 

I can easily name a few here that I almost never see others do while queue ing.

 

- Alternating Mine dropping is so important. You only drop both mines at the same time if you really need that burst damage to live.

 

- Hyperspace beacon placement in a none well traveled area. This is crucial to it not being spotted quickly.

 

- Don't place your drones on the actual nodes so that enemies have to decide between shooting at you or the drone, when they go for the drone that's when you shoot them with lasers. It also helps them not die to mines.

 

- Don't put your repair drone right on top of your attacking drone, this just makes it easier for a Gunship to Ion aoe them down, or even any ship attacking doesn't need to change directions while killing them both. You want to make people have to hunt down these things. Even if they are only 500m apart that really changes the angles enemies have to take to kill them.

 

- If playing with a Damage reduction build, knowing every single weapon that can have armor penetration and being able to tell if a ship has it just by sound or appearance.

[Verain]

I think a big part of the perception is that bombers are normally under represented. I also think a lot of it is that bombers really punish players who don't understand three space flight, and there's no shortage of those. The class has a pretty low skill floor, but that's not the same thing as "negate necessary skill".

 

I really think that if you are getting vastly better results on a bomber, then there's a lack of familiarity of the blaster mechanics. You definitely need those on a bomber, but if you aren't hitting as much as you should on the other ships you'll still be getting your mine damage, and the perception will be that bombers are that much better.

 

Meanwhile, if you are getting totally wrecked by mines, that's likely due to inexperience with the mine positioning.

 

 

I think that the biggest missing piece about being a bomber is knowing about where your mines will land, and making that happen. We lost a lot of that strat with the aoe nerf, but what remains is still good. Choosing between mines off the node (greater effect, triggers almost instantly, easy to shoot down, harder to avoid) and mines on the node (forces enemies off that octet, only can hit one target, target can avoid entirely) is a big deal, and knowing where the mine will go is important too. If you are being pursued, getting a mine behind an enemy is a coupe, but there's no guarantee of that, etc.

 

 

The other thing is- the bomber can't come hunt you. The ability to choose whether a fight is happening or not is a huge deal. If a bomber on a node was a fair fight, why would anyone play them? It's not like a bomber in the open is a fair fight, or a bomber trying to reinforce, or a bomber dealing with an enemy gunship.

 

 

Nemarus's point about strikes being better against bombers is a pretty solid one- mostly because you can't really build a strike that's ACTUALLY good against them. The stack of medium range weapons isn't helpful in that case. There should be something strikes can do in that case to be a bit more threatening.

[Cyanothis]

I think there is a difference between a well played bomber and the herd players jumping on bombers.

 

A well played bomber pilot is down right annoying in a domination match, they know how to fly the ship, when to use cooldowns, where to place mines/drones and make a real difference. On The Red Eclipse (and in my personal opinion) Jasa is probably the bomber pilot I fear the most. He/she is a great pilot of that ship and tough to kill.

 

This takes skill and practice.

 

The starting skill level for bomber is definitely low, but to be really good takes practice and knowing the class.

 

As to countering bombers...personally I like the Clarion a lot for that task. The shields, armor and self heal ability along with good missile load out makes it a good bomber hunter.

[Yojiro]

From what I've seen so far, Bombers get this reputation as they are major newbie punishers. As in they are extremely harsh to take down by new players as they award or punish player positioning accordingly. This meets up with something that Verain stated:

 

I also think a lot of it is that bombers really punish players who don't understand three space flight, and there's no shortage of those.

 

When I was starting off it was hell for me to take down any kind of bomber... and then I learned strategic placing and flying.

 

Bombers are easy to play, annoying to counter. But once you learn how to, you'll find that they can be amazingly fun to fly against from a tactical view point and Not. That. Hard.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Yojiro

[RickDagles]

Bombers are definitely the best and easiest ship to use against stock ships and noobies. But they are ludicrously easy to kill in a well flown Quad/Pod Battlescout, Starguard, or Gunship. Even the Clarion and Spearpoint do well against most Bombers with their Thermite torpedos.

 

However, the bomber actually has a very high skill ceiling. It is a completely different skill set than flying the other ships. You need to constantly be cycling through TAB key and using the C button to see who is targetting you and where they are shooting you from. Then you use the satellite to achieve LoS. Very few bombers are good at doing this. But the ones that can do it well are super hard to kill. Guys like Drak, Xi'ao, and Chobani (ToFN) are very good at evasively flying their bombers and it can be a huge headache.

 

 

What the game really needs is for Strikes to be the best counter for Bombers, and for countering a Bomber in a Strike to be as easy as flying one.

 

The Strikes already are amazing against bombers, especially the Charged Plating Rampart/Razorwire. HLC with tier 4 armor upgrade and frequency capacitors chews those things up in seconds. And with the 6200m range you are well out of the danger range of mines. You could even add in armor ignore concussion missiles for extra stopping power, but I like to use cluster missiles so that I can do more against scouts and GS. Because that's exactly the issue. Strikes may be great against bombers but they lose to Ion railgun and Battlescouts.

Edited February 27, 2015 by RickDagles

[Zoom_VI]

There should always be a noob friendly class/weapon/ability.

 

You need something for new players that lets them feel they are contributing. Otherwise new players become frustrated and quit.

 

A better question would be "why are bombers not the stock ship?"

[JonnyRay]

I just picked up my bomber (Rampart Mk 4) this week; so from a new player's perspective I'd say that bombers are deceptive.

 

Against other pilots of similar skill (I've been at the GSF thing for about a month), I can hold a satellite solo for an entire match.

 

On the other hand, the other night it seemed that Eclipse Squadron was queueing and they shredded my defenses (and my bomber) like it was paper mache.

 

In some ways it's kind of the same as when I'm in my gunship. Against new / unskilled pilots, I can perch somewhere and rack up kills all match long. But as soon as I'm up against pilots that know what they're doing I'm toast.

 

I would say that in my experience the skill level required to be proficient is lower. But mastering the ship still requires a lot of hours and study to play it really well.

[Ramalina]

A lot of the bomber complaint syndrome stems from the same sources as the gunship complaint syndrome.

 

1) If you don't know how their mechanics work, you'll die to them quickly and repeatedly.

 

2) In large numbers, generally 4 or more in a 10 km diameter sphere of space, their power increases at a greater rate than simple linear addition.

 

3) They are arguably their own best counter.

 

Dealing with a bomber is not problematic even if the pilot if very good. Dealing with two requires certain elements of proper ship build and a hefty dose of skill. Dealing with three or more in one location starts getting seriously problematic, and without teamwork on the attacker's side or serious misplay by the bombers it's likely to take so long that respawns will return before the area is cleared.

 

Coordinated teamwork and skill are the big deal if you want to take on bombers in large numbers. Things in short supply due to MMO social dynamics, low population, and unworkable matchmaking.

 

If they get thick enough to really annoy, I recommend either building a mastered SIM CP or getting on a T1 gunship and spamming the cloud of red with mastered Ion Railgun shots until there are no mines, no drones, and no bombers with shield arcs in your general vicinity. Five grouped up railgun sentry drones are even more deserving of Ion Rail-spam than a battlescout ace.

 

The dedicated anti-bomber components are pretty lackluster, and have questionable value even at high levels of team play. If you're getting enough out of them to be truly valuable against multiple bombers you probably were doing well enough that you didn't need them, and would have been better served with components that have strong general uses.

 

It a difficult balancing task. Dealing with high level play, low level play, stacking, and still keeping bombers viable in any match type is not that easy.

[nyghtrunner]

There should always be a noob friendly class/weapon/ability.

 

You need something for new players that lets them feel they are contributing. Otherwise new players become frustrated and quit.

 

A better question would be "why are bombers not the stock ship?"

I'm honestly kind of on board here. I don't think there's a whole lot of reason not to grant a T1 Bomber and a T1 GS to new players at this point. That way a prospective new pilot has the option to fly any of the major classes from the start.

 

Bombers have their place. The observations that without bombers, the meta would shift more and more towards battlescouts are probably correct. The best and most elusive of the scout pilots can fly evasively on a Sat and either hold it for reinforcements or keep another team from capping almost to infinity. It gets harder the more people show up, but I've seen some exceedingly good pilots in a scout "sat hump" with 3-4-5 enemies trying to take them down. If 1 really good BScout can do that, then the rest of the match, and fights at the other 2 satellites, are effectively 7v3-5 or 11v7-9. So it can be pretty swingy. I don't necessarily mind that, myself, but I've been playing a long time, and my skill level is, while not at the true heights, pretty up there, and if I go into full evasive mode, can keep most strikes and scouts in multiples at bay for a while. Just yesterday, I had a match where I took and largely kept a satellite against 4 people. They didn't bring any bombers to the sat, and the enemies kind of trickled after the first wave, coming back as I killed them.

 

Bombers are a great way for people of lesser skill/who don't have over 1000 hours in the cockpit to fight that. They might not be able to kill me if you add a bomber into that example, but they can probably force me away from the satellite to take it.

 

Fundamentally, I don't like bombers. But it's natural, because I'm a scout pilot, and like to fight in close. Bombers have a natural advantage there by design.

 

Stacking bombers can be a massive problem if a team can't coordinate well enough to kill them, and I hate that as well. As I believe Ramalina said (Maybe Nem), they aren't perfect. But I've come to think they absolutely are necessary. Their existence makes the module more dynamic, which leads to more interesting games, which keeps me queuing (albeit a bit less lately, despite this, but that's another story). Without bombers, the meta of nothing but Gunners and Battlescouts, which is most likely what the meta would evolve into, would get stale and boring in a hurry, and it's worth the occasional 5-6 bomber game to keep that from happening.

 

EDIT - I'll also second what someone else said either here or in one of the other bomber threads. Bombers give Strikes a bit of a place. You can outfit Strikes to take out bombers, and those builds can be extremely effective against bombers. It almost requires stacking Damage Reduction at all levels you can, which largely will negate the bombs and drones (more bombs, but it helps a lot with the drones too). The tradeoff is that specialized anti-bomber builds fail horrible against good gunners and scouts, both of which usually have 100% armor penetration. You have to sacrifice all evasion for these builds, which makes them insanely easy to hit, and the armor ignore makes your defensive build useless. My largest design issue here is the swings are too extreme, and it pigeon-holes the strikes to a pretty specific role at the higher levels a lot of times. But again, that's another topic.

Edited February 27, 2015 by nyghtrunner

[Verain]

The dedicated anti-bomber components are pretty lackluster, and have questionable value even at high levels of team play. If you're getting enough out of them to be truly valuable against multiple bombers you probably were doing well enough that you didn't need them, and would have been better served with components that have strong general uses.

 

Agree with this. I'll also point out that one of our longstanding bugs relates to an anti bomber component. EMP field was, at the request of the community, buffed last spring. But a later patch reverted the range, while keeping the tooltip. I'm reasonably sure that's a bug, though with no dev statements we can't know for sure.

 

The things that are meant to mess with drones and mines do, but their extreme close range means that you'll seldom be able to clear a node of them solo against two bombers, and honestly even one can be hard. Clearing a mine of nodes is not the same as defeating the bombers, and when you pick EMP missile or EMP field you are definitely signing up for a utility role, and it should be more powerful.

 

 

That being said, it's not like bombers require this to play against.

 

The Strikes already are amazing against bombers, especially the Charged Plating Rampart/Razorwire.

 

I wouldn't say amazing. Yes, if you catch one in midair you are very well suited for shredding it. The issue is how infrequently that happens. If I'm on a node, a charged plating clarion joining the party will be annoying, but probably can't kill me. He has to lock a torp to threaten, but neither is he going to die. If the strike had an armor ignoring version of cluster missile (say, ignores armor, but lower damage total), or burst laser cannon, or something, then that would be more interesting I think.

[RickDagles]

I wouldn't say amazing. Yes, if you catch one in midair you are very well suited for shredding it. The issue is how infrequently that happens. If I'm on a node, a charged plating clarion joining the party will be annoying, but probably can't kill me. He has to lock a torp to threaten, but neither is he going to die. If the strike had an armor ignoring version of cluster missile (say, ignores armor, but lower damage total), or burst laser cannon, or something, then that would be more interesting I think.

 

I dunno I shred 95% of nested bombers with HLC unless a GS fires ion railgun at me or a scout comes at me.

[Danalon]

I'm honestly kind of on board here. I don't think there's a whole lot of reason not to grant a T1 Bomber and a T1 GS to new players at this point. That way a prospective new pilot has the option to fly any of the major classes from the start.

 

That's what the 5k fleet requisition reward of the GSF intro quest is made for.

 

It would make more sense if new players just automatically learned T1 gunship and bomber after completing the intro. Sure technically 5k fleet req is a better reward than just unlocking two ships, because you can spend fleet req on whatever you want - but there is a high chance a new player will waste those 5k.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Danalon

[sartt]

Does anyone else think the Bomber Classes are too easy to use?

 

It seems as though whenever a team is losing, and they all (or most) switch to the bomber class, they can easily turn the match around in their favor.

 

I've come to relate how their mines resemble piles of dog crap. Can be hard to see, and if you're not paying attention, you can "walk", or fly in this case, right into them. Sure they're easy to kill. 150 hp and stationary, but f you're trying to focus objectives, it can really be a hassle to take out the mines, get close to satellite, and keep an eye out for the bomber, in which their laser canons are hard hitters.

 

It doesn't take much skill I think, to use a bomber class. Most bombers have turrets/mines that are easily deployed, and they never miss their target. Meanwhile, after making several "dog piles" around the satellite, bomber user can leisurely fly circles and let their mines/turrets do the heavy lifting.

 

I'm guess someone's gonna say they do take skill. Nevertheless, dogfighting and 'sniping' with gunships takes tactics and precision. Things that I think bombers do not require.

lol bombers are a free kill to me they are slow, big, have horrid turn rates.

[Sinapus]

No, when I fly a bomber I die a lot. It does take *some* skill unless your opponent keeps flying into your mines.

[Linuxizer]

There is a big difference between a really good minelayer pilot and a not so good one. The good ones manage to get under the satellite and start laying mines, while the others get shot down en route.

 

This video from Drakolich is a good example. Most bombers I see don't fly like that.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=789021

[AztecSoul]

EDIT: I didn't read the topic fully (it's late )

 

I plan on starting a new character that will use only Bombers, so this sounds promising for a pilot that's only been running GSF matches for a couple months. All this time flying only scouts and strike fighters should provide for an interesting change of play style for sure.

Edited March 2, 2015 by AztecSoul

[ALaggyGrunt]

SIM/CP doesn't work if they're also running SIM/CP and interdiction sentry. Stuck for 15 seconds = dead + you can't do anything. Your only real option to clear that is ion splash + cover from other players.

[Bolo_Yeung]

SIM/CP doesn't work if they're also running SIM/CP and interdiction sentry. Stuck for 15 seconds = dead + you can't do anything. Your only real option to clear that is ion splash + cover from other players.

 

Clarion/Pike with CP and EMP missile. Lock EMP from away, it will disable drones, destroy all mines and bombers won't be able to drop another interdiction mine (only seismic, that your CP should take care of).

[Sinapus]

Clarion/Pike with CP and EMP missile. Lock EMP from away, it will disable drones, destroy all mines and bombers won't be able to drop another interdiction mine (only seismic, that your CP should take care of).

 

I've had battles where someone comes in with a scout w/the EMP device and then things start going really bad.

[ALaggyGrunt]

Clarion/Pike with CP and EMP missile. Lock EMP from away, it will disable drones, destroy all mines and bombers won't be able to drop another interdiction mine (only seismic, that your CP should take care of).

 

The bombers I know who know to run this combo also tend to have 50 () gunships with them at all times, and occasionally a battlescout. When I'm on the other team, they know I'm a Very Important Target no matter what I'm flying, so there's no way they're just going to let me fly straight and level for 3 seconds after they see me line up.

 

But again, the answer is teamwork more than anything else: You need cover to make runs at bombers.

Edited March 3, 2015 by ALaggyGrunt

[RickDagles]

Clarion/Pike with CP and EMP missile. Lock EMP from away, it will disable drones, destroy all mines and bombers won't be able to drop another interdiction mine (only seismic, that your CP should take care of).

 

This works decently on paper until you realize that all of the most popular builds in the game counter it HARD. Gunships chew you up even faster with super shield piercing slug railguns, BLC scouts kill you in 1-2 shots, Quad/Pod scouts tear you up just as fast as normal, and even Bombers and Strikes with HLC can make quick work of you. All of those weapons I mentioned are already pretty OP but they suddenly become even more uber effective against CP armor. The ONLY meta build that doesn't chew you up is the Quad/Cluster Battlescout, but hardly anyone even runs that anymore. Also your lasers (Quads, LLC, or RFL) won't do squat against CP armor. You're better off using your own CP Rampart/Razorwire with HLC.

 

I find the T3 Strike Quad/Thermite combo works better and it is a lot more versatile. You can go under the SAT to kill bombers rather than chasing them around in circles. And with directional shields and wingman you can actually win jousts against Strikes and Scouts. With good powerdive use you can even pester Gunships. Honestly this build is amazing at killing most bomber pilots. But it is pretty useless against a really good bomber because you'll rarely land a thermite on him. For that reason I think HLC Strikes and Pod Scouts work best at this job if you don't want to switch to bomber yourself and/or you are solo carrying the game.

Edited March 3, 2015 by RickDagles