12 x XP for class-missions

[jayperringo]

I love that SWTOR is an MMORPG. I play for endgame, operations mainly. Levelling can be fun but generally, I just want to get it done as fast as possible so I can start the endgame grind for set bonus gear and have more characters to run raids. Having 12xp would not make my experience less MMO, in fact the levelling is already a pretty much single player experience for me - when i get to 60, thats when the MMO starts! Levelling is already just about class missions, side quests mostly single players, with the exception of spamming KDY during events I guess.

 

In my experience, less time levelling will mean i spend more time doing the multiplayer level 60 content. 12xp will increase my and others' involvement in the MMO part of the game.

[Azibux]

Swtor Potato mined Data-info from the latest PTS update.

looks like 12x xp is coming back with 3.2!

 

http://torcommunity.com/database/update-previews/413-3-2-pts-2-mined

[Ghisallo]

You're missing the data point that SWTOR Reps have made that of the money made in micro-transactions the vast majority (well over 90% as I recall, I do not remember the specific number or am I motivated enough to find the quote) came from people with subs.... /snip

 

First thanks for the info on subscribers being the main micro transaction purchasers but could you give me a link. I am a data geek and like to see statements like that in context.

 

I completely get that this is an MMORPG BTW. I wouldn't be here if it wasn't one, all I play anymore are MMORPGs. Also I only play MMOs with a subscription option and then subscribe. My philosophy is "if its not worth me paying a subscription it is not worth playing. I have never been able to finish a Single Player RPG because it lacks the "community" element and I stopped playing FPS games when it became all but impossible to find "tactical realism" servers to play on.

 

(For those that don't know a tactical realism server was one set up by players. They would have an admin in god mode observing things and if you did things that would not work IRL, bunny hoping, circle strafing, full sprint with pin point shooting you would get a warning and then kicked if you persisted.)

 

That said there are A LOT of reasons to play an MMO. I actually agreed with something Scott Hartsman once said (arguably the best Dev/senior producer SOE ever had and now CEO of Trion.) He said (paraphrasing of course), "if you need to extend the life of you game by artificially hindering progression that says your end game content is either lacking in engengagement, depth, quantity or all of the above."

 

I absolutely used to believe 100% in the idea of "fast leveling means loss of sub's>loss of income>game enters maintenance mode or lights off.". However I began to come around to the idea that if you NEED to create a slower leveling curve to prevent this dynamic then you create a mask that can hide deeper problems in the game that will eventually bite you in the butt. In the end, not always but most of the time, you only delay the inevitable.

 

I personally like the side quests. I actually don't get the RPGers who don't because you find little insights into your character that make them more " real". Also half the story is about the companions, what benefit is there is not seeing all of that? That's the point of a SP RPG I thought. That said if we are going to look at it and say it is really the single player person who is in favor of this, to me logic would dictate these are the people least likely to subscribe.

 

Why subscribe and get bonuses, beyond leveling, that really will not be of a benefit to you and where you LOSE out on the story. If you are an MMOer (meaning you want the community, the guilds, the housing, the end game etc) then these things should be deep enough to keep you engaged even if you level up faster shouldn't they? If they don't then that is the main problem imo.

 

--------------------------------------

 

Now with all that in mind why not a hybrid? If you really look at it the entire point of the 12x exp was to let new or returning players to get to 55 so they would not have a lot of grinding to catch up to those already at end game. So you give it a rolling cap. Right now it would be 12x xp until level 50 or 55. Next level increase you increase the cap by the same number...if it is to 65... The 12x cap rises to 55 or 60...if they jump to 70 the 12x cap jumps to 60 or 65 and so on.

 

I think this would be a net win win tbh. The biggest hurdle to trying a new MMO is that you want to see end game BUT so many players just get tired of trying to catch up because each new update at a minimum sees the existing player base further ahead in end game progression (thus gear) or a new tier of end game progression etc. At the same time you still preserve the current expac leveling curve. Doing it this way you keep the "current" leveling the same, thus the boredom factor is a non-issue BUT you have a better chance of retaining new players because they do not feel like they are always one step behind.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Ghisallo

[EnkiduNineEight]

Some good stuff in there but wanted to point out something about the context of your quote from SoE alum.

 

Remember he's referring to the artificial grind SoE games had when he's talking about the artificial speed bump in MMO's. The games SoE was making required players to sit and do stupid amounts of killing repetitively before they could advance. SWTOR hasn't had that from the very beginning. It is already significantly faster that the SoE products on progressing through your levels etc.

 

As mentioned prior, you have to _skip_ content that is available for your level as if you do _everything_ on every planet and that's in your level range when you arrive (including space missions etc) you will outlevel the planet you are on, turning much of it 'grey' before moving on to the next. completionist type players have been complaining about that since release. Those are the players that feel the need to finish every quest and do everything available and when they try, they end up making the next planet even easier and the condition snowballs so that they were max level before they reached the last few planets, trivializing them.

 

So while I agree as well with the sentiment espoused by the SoE Dev, it was and opinion being applied to the SoE product(s) or those that mirrored the model.

 

What is being asked for here is for players to be able to skip ALL of the content except for a storyline and to get rewarded at 12x the regular rate for doing so, dropping the rate it takes to progress to the end game by a factor of 5 or so and that's me being generous to the 12x progression, it likely will take less than 12 hours at 12x XP to hit the end game, especially if they are upping the comm rewards as well.

[Clarian]

Subs thus that last less long are lost revenue potential and it is not an insignificant loss. Spread equally amongst 154,000 people that is @900 dollars per subscriber per year on top of the $180 for a year of subs at a $15 monthly rate. So if you make it easier for subs to 'finish' the game and get bored with it quicker, you lose a sizeable income.

 

The goal here for long term health/longevity is to attract new subs who will stay longer. Any system that encourages a player to come and go quicker diminishes potential revenue.

I think you're right about that.

They should not be making the game even more single player friendly. I get some of you wanted KOTOR3(+) but turning it into a single player game destroys it as a mmorpg and once that happens you don't have your sp rpg either.

But, I don't think you're right about that. 'Single player' doesn't mean 'done playing the game after 30 hours.' As a solo player, the last thing I would want to do is skip any of the side-quests - which all have story content - and be done with the game quickly. Also, the subscription pay model, cash shop and auction house don't need to be restricted to multiplayer games. I still use those things even though I have no real interest in group content. So...from the standpoint of the longevity of the game, I see nothing wrong with it being more solo friendly in ways that don't cause people to leave faster.

[ekwalizer]

Who do you think you are?

Are you really that mad because you spent hundreds of hours getting a bunch of Level 60's?

I dislike the way you project and construct you're comments on this thread. You clearly have some sort of mental problem... I saw your reply to a post about a guy talking about how he has a life and a wife. And then you come and RAMBLE and make up some STORY About how the guy was a wizard in 1989? or that he feels entitled to everything? You have quite an imagination. Are you drunk or something?

You Know why it's called ASSuming right? Because you make an *** of yourself if your wrong.

 

That question should more appropriately be directed at the segment of the population that feels like they should not have to advance in level the way the game was designed. Those opposed to 12xp are simply reminding the others that the game has a current mechanism.

 

So, to your question: Who do *they think they are?* That they should be able to demand that the developers alter the way the leveling system operates when it *clearly* already works as evidenced by thousands upon thousands of max level characters?

[Djiini]

So, question, why is 'it'll kill the game' being used as an argument if most of the forums are acting like the game is dying anyway?

[ekwalizer]

So, question, why is 'it'll kill the game' being used as an argument if most of the forums are acting like the game is dying anyway?

 

Forum users are not representative of the total game population. Just as the pro-12XPers do not speak for everyone, the anti-12XPers do not speak for everyone. When combined, the "pro" and "anti" camps do not represent everyone.

[Djiini]

Forum users are not representative of the total game population. Just as the pro-12XPers do not speak for everyone, the anti-12XPers do not speak for everyone. When combined, the "pro" and "anti" camps do not represent everyone.

 

Huh, I was just confused since people were saying TOR had a huge downgrade in subscribers based on a handful of people on the forums quitting.

[ekwalizer]

Huh, I was just confused since people were saying TOR had a huge downgrade in subscribers based on a handful of people on the forums quitting.

 

I suppose I should have just said that my sides were in orbit

[jrwellworth]

Well, since the rakghoul plague is back, and maxkilljoy is nowhere to be found, we are gonna need a volunteer for someone to argue and scold people who like to infect others, and someone to volunteer to be the anti-max, and argue that there is a vaccine and that BW made the infecting daily, so it's not trolling, it's playing the game. (was that too much of a run on sentence?) Due to this fact, the 12x xp argument should be halted as the discussion is becoming much to civilized and rational, a week of rakghoul infection arguments should have us all back to where we should be. Edited March 31, 2015 by jrwellworth

[Sjax]

I'm ready for war.

[FerkWork]

Well, since the rakghoul plague is back, and maxkilljoy is nowhere to be found, we are gonna need a volunteer for someone to argue and scold people who like to infect others, and someone to volunteer to be the anti-max, and argue that there is a vaccine and that BW made the infecting daily, so it's not trolling, it's playing the game. (was that too much of a run on sentence?) Due to this fact, the 12x xp argument should be halted as the discussion is becoming much to civilized and rational, a week of rakghoul infection arguments should have us all back to where we should be.

 

 

I miss his posts. #bringbackmax

[hiddenpookie]

supposedly the datamining 12xXP was an april fools joke. go figure

[Raphael_diSanto]

The rules were already established.

 

For better or worse, MMOs are a living organism. Things can and do change. Core mechanics are altered, rules are added, changed, removed entirely.

 

People advocating different ways to play the game (not just 12xXP) are already aware of the current rules. That's why they're on the forums, championing the change that they want to see. They already know that it's a change, so stating that "this is the way it was meant to be played" is somewhat of a redundant statement.

 

If nothing ever changed in an MMO, the classes and powers would look exactly the same as they did when the game was launched, save for any bug fixes that happened.

 

The rules were already established, true. And those rules exist right now. We play under them. But BioWare can, and have changed the rules in the past, as all MMO companies do.

[ekwalizer]

I absolutely used to believe 100% in the idea of "fast leveling means loss of sub's>loss of income>game enters maintenance mode or lights off.". However I began to come around to the idea that if you NEED to create a slower leveling curve to prevent this dynamic then you create a mask that can hide deeper problems in the game that will eventually bite you in the butt. In the end, not always but most of the time, you only delay the inevitable.

 

While this is true, there is no extended leveling curve keeping people from reaching max level. What keeps most people (around here) from doing it is the time they spend on the forum. I was among the many, many players who were level capped before the end of Early Access. Most of us were hitting that in about 60-70 game hours.

 

Now with all that in mind why not a hybrid? If you really look at it the entire point of the 12x exp was to let new or returning players to get to 55 so they would not have a lot of grinding to catch up to those already at end game. So you give it a rolling cap. Right now it would be 12x xp until level 50 or 55. Next level increase you increase the cap by the same number...if it is to 65... The 12x cap rises to 55 or 60...if they jump to 70 the 12x cap jumps to 60 or 65 and so on.

 

The point of 12xp was to get subscribers, old and new up to level 55 in order to immediately participate in the expansion. Quite simply put, 12xp leading up for SoR was a marketing gimmick to get more people to subscribe. It was not done because Bioware feels their leveling curve is skewed.

 

I think this would be a net win win tbh. The biggest hurdle to trying a new MMO is that you want to see end game BUT so many players just get tired of trying to catch up because each new update at a minimum sees the existing player base further ahead in end game progression (thus gear) or a new tier of end game progression etc. At the same time you still preserve the current expac leveling curve. Doing it this way you keep the "current" leveling the same, thus the boredom factor is a non-issue BUT you have a better chance of retaining new players because they do not feel like they are always one step behind.

 

Reaching level cap on your first play through too quickly invites under-geared and under-skilled players in content where both gear and skill are extremely important. I'll grant you that not every player is created equally and some players could adapt, overcome and improvise their way through content under-geared and unskilled; but I think we both know that most wouldn't be able to.

[Ratajack]

For better or worse, MMOs are a living organism. Things can and do change. Core mechanics are altered, rules are added, changed, removed entirely.

 

People advocating different ways to play the game (not just 12xXP) are already aware of the current rules. That's why they're on the forums, championing the change that they want to see. They already know that it's a change, so stating that "this is the way it was meant to be played" is somewhat of a redundant statement.

 

If nothing ever changed in an MMO, the classes and powers would look exactly the same as they did when the game was launched, save for any bug fixes that happened.

 

The rules were already established, true. And those rules exist right now. We play under them. But BioWare can, and have changed the rules in the past, as all MMO companies do.

 

MMO's can and do evolve over time.

 

Players can ask for the devs to make changes to the game and the currently established "rules".

 

Other players can voice their opinions as to whether or not those "requested" (in this case, almost demanded) changes would be good for the game as a whole, and not just simply for a select portion of the player base. Those voicing their opinions or asking that the devs NOT change the currently established rules are NOT "forcing other players to play their way", though. The devs are the ones who set those rules and they are the ones who would be "forcing players to play a certain way", NOT those requesting that the game not be changed.

 

This is one change that is NOT needed, IMO, and one that would ultimately be detrimental to the game as a whole, for reasons already given time and time again.

[Ghisallo]

Reaching level cap on your first play through too quickly invites under-geared and under-skilled players in content where both gear and skill are extremely important. I'll grant you that not every player is created equally and some players could adapt, overcome and improvise their way through content under-geared and unskilled; but I think we both know that most wouldn't be able to.

 

I totally get this... but this is where I think Bioware should implement something else. Basically this would be my idea...

 

First have the 12x exp up to 5-10 levels beneath level cap. This way new players get to endgame faster and don't feel in perpetual catch up mode. This will help retention of new players.

 

Second a gear score in the LFD. basically each FP and OP has a recommended minimum total (like say 186). Multiply that by 12. If you do not have that total (this way someone with say a 178 item here but a 192 item there is still included) you can not queue for it.

 

You will NEVER be able to equate for player "skill" or "experience". A Player could have been playing his JK from launch and still be "bad." So you have to roll with that one anyway... no sense sweating it.

[EllieAnne]

I'm back!

And I notice the same old faulty arguments; what a surprise.

 

Fallacy #1: It will damage the game as people level too fast viz. neglect the MMO aspect of the game.

Truth: As has been repeatedly pointed out, the choice many are making is not play fast vs play slow. It is actually play fast vs. not playing at all. The anti-12ers still think we're all running around Ord Mantel as level 9's thinking "I wish I could be level 60 by dinner time." The cold hard fact they refuse to recognize is that level 9 Trooper doesn't exist because we are not starting new toons at all.

 

Fallacy #2: Grind is an important element of MMORPGs

Truth: Anyone who says this clearly do not understand the culture of MMORPGs. "Grinding" is primarily a Korean MMO feature because that is what that culture of gamers want in an MMO. There is nothing inherent in an MMO that requires grinding and in fact, a few games are looking at removing or minimizing levels at all and are looking at more skill-development paradigms. Is it grinding? Well yes in a way but it is moving from useless tasks into more character development tasks.

 

Fallacy #3: Grind is an important element of MMORPGs

Truth: OK let's say the anti-12ers are right and BW or the gamer community or the MMO Gods demand the sacrifice of grinding. At what point have you done enough grinding to appease them? I have pointed out a few times (to be ignored by the anti-12ers) that most MMOs have you develop 3 or maybe 4 toons to get the full story. Is it fair to have you grind out four complete toons? Sure I can go with that (which incidentally is the minimum of what we are asking for - grind out four toons before you get 12xXP). SWTOR has at least 10 storylines you can go through. Do the grinders really expect us to grind out 2.5X as many toons to get the full extent of SWTOR? Is it fair to compare a 10 storyline game to a 4 storyline game in terms of the amount of work is expected from the player?

 

Fallacy #4: Fast-tracking means players won't know their class.

Truth: Utterly ridiculous. First of all, the game never really makes you learn your class. There are no class specific missions to learn how to tank or heal or set up an effective rotation. Second, KDY killed off having to know your class (HTKYK) because anyone can run it like they're a DPS with their a ss on fire. IF players were required to run the Holy Trinity (i.e. non-tactical) flashpoints, that might cure the problem - but what does that have to do with 12xXP? Last, because of companions and being able to change specialties, the optimum (i.e. quickest) way to run SWTOR 1-60 is to gear and specialize as a DPS, get to level 60 and use your comms and regear/respec as a tank or healer if that is how you want to run endgame. The only healers/tanks 1-59 should be the RPers. Again, what does that have to do with 12xXP?

 

Fallacy #5: There will be credits and gearing issues.

We 12ers presume you already have at least four level 60s to support new toons. And if you are undergeared/underunded then run some flashpoints. The cries the first time around about need better gear or more $ came

a) from noobs that did not have a gearing/credit support system in place.

b) from people rushing through before the 12xXP was over.

Neither of these would occur under our system

 

Fallacy #6: These are the rules BW has implemented and it is unfair to expect them to change something so fundamental to the game. BW should run the game the way THEY want it to be played and players need to abide by that.

Two words: Discipline System

Edited April 2, 2015 by EllieAnne

[Clarian]

I'm back!

And I notice the same old faulty arguments; what a surprise.

 

Fallacy #1: It will damage the game as people level too fast viz. neglect the MMO aspect of the game.

Truth: As has been repeatedly pointed out, the choice many are making is not play fast vs play slow. It is actually play fast vs. not playing at all. the anti-12ers still think we're all running around Ord Mantel as level 9's thinking "I wish I could be level 60 by dinner time." The cold hard fact they refuse to recognize is that level 9 Trooper doesn't exist because we are not starting new toons at all.

I think it's true that there are some people who insist on 12x xp - if they don't get it, they won't play at all.

 

But what you're missing here is that there are probably even more people who merely prefer 12x xp - they'll still play without it, but would take it if it was offered. And I would bet they far outnumber the people who insist on it.

 

For all of them, it would be a mater of playing fast vs. playing slow, and having them zoom through the game and then leave would damage the longevity of the game.

 

If Bioware could sell 12x xp only to the people who would never play the game without it, they would make more revenue than otherwise. But I don't know of any way they could do that, and haven't seen any ideas.

[Ghisallo]

EllieAnne

 

Fact...

 

All MMORPGs have had a grind... a "Korean grinder" simply takes it to a crazy degree because they were designed initially on a completely different financial model because for the most part you played games in an internet game room. As such you were already paying the owner of the computer a fee... they could not charge a sub... they did microtransactions...to encourage microtransactions they made it possible for you to "buy around the grind"/

 

As for the western sub model it needs some degree of grind because it is simply impossible to develop enough content to make sure the players do not run out of new stuff to do. running out of new stuff to do makes t more likely that subscriptions will last. The trick with this model is "how well do you conceal the fact a grind exists." usually this is done with gear grinds in western MMOs because getting that next piece of gear actually triggers a pavlovian response. If you don't do the above players get bored, subs lapse, they play another game in the meantime and often stay in their "new home." The trick is finding that "balance."

 

PS there have been actual studies on this last bit by the Psyche departments of major Universities Like UC Berkely...people were curious about the Evercrack/internet widow phenom and so they did peer reviewed studies.

 

That is why some developers, like Scott Hartsman have tried to do it a little different lately... have an easier leveling experience BUT have faster dev cycles for end game content rathed than a BIG expac every 12-18 months AND put a gear grind on the back end because for an MMORPG to maintain profitability you need to keep players locked in and the key to that is keep them having a carrot on the end of the stick.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Ghisallo

[EllieAnne]

I think it's true that there are some people who insist on 12x xp - if they don't get it, they won't play at all.

 

But what you're missing here is that there are probably even more people who merely prefer 12x xp - they'll still play without it, but would take it if it was offered. And I would bet they far outnumber the people who insist on it..

 

But that is NOT what I was saying. Let's say I have 4 toons that I am playing. I ask myself, "Should I make a 5th toon or just play around with these 4?" The anti-12ers are claiming we're making that 5th toon and to put in 12xXP will take that toon away from the MMO experience (Leaving out the fact that that statement is unproven). What we have seen is that the 12ers are in many cases not making that 5th toon simply because of the grind. The anti-12ers ignore that and presume that 5th toon exists.

 

No one said give me 12xXP or I won't play at all. We're saying (well many of us are saying) give me 12xXP or I'm not going to make any new toons.

[Djiini]

All Class Missions that previously rewarded 1 or 2 Basic Commendations now reward 8 Basic Commendations.

 

*Whistles Innocently*

 

Also, to be fair, I probably won't play unless 12x rolls out.

You just don't see me saying that unprovoked because it's a toxic attitude and I'm not going to openly threaten to quit if I don't get a fancy, shiny new feature.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Djiini

[EllieAnne]

EllieAnne

 

Fact...

 

All MMORPGs have had a grind... a "Korean grinder" simply takes it to a crazy degree because they were designed initially on a completely different financial model because for the most part you played games in an internet game room. As such you were already paying the owner of the computer a fee... they could not charge a sub... they did microtransactions...to encourage microtransactions they made it possible for you to "buy around the grind"/

.

 

And I think I addressed that in #3. Sure there will be a grind but is it a grind on useless tasks or useful tasks? What about race questlines like a Twi'lek quest to Ryloth or a Ratatakki "coming of age" questline. What about questlines to learn how to tank or set up a rotation? What about a questline to get the purple crystal rather than just buying one. What about companion questlines more than the one or two you get per toon.

 

My contention was to the anti-12ers that grinding is the same as "earning" your level. Look at the accusations they make. Rarely is it about content but instead how we are "lazy" because we don't want to grind. It's not really a grinding issue as much as doing the same task over and over (very Korean). I guaranty if there were more variety in content, the 12xXP would not even be discussed. And that I place directly in the lap of Bioware. When you're selling your product based on stories, you cannot suffer from a lack of story options.

[Clarian]

No one said give me 12xXP or I won't play at all. We're saying (well many of us are saying) give me 12xXP or I'm not going to make any new toons.

Well, if EA doesn't stand to lose any customers by not making it available...all the less reason to make it available.

 

But, I think I have seen some people say that they're done with the game without it. And, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. I have my own conditions for when I'll be done with the game myself.