irishseeker Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 I am getting tired of the amount of work needed to be put in for a level 60 HM FP and the drops being less than what is really required to finish the flashpoint. There is honestly no one who wants the gear except the 192 at the end. The amount of wipes though that are required to sometimes finish a pugged HM FP requires more credits than you get from selling the terrible 184 gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 192 or higher is not required to finish the flashpoint. When 3.0 first launched I finished all of the HM flashpoints (plus bonus bosses) with pretty much all 180/186 gear, and the old augments. Sure, it's easier to overgear the content, but that gear isn't a requirement. Though I do agree that the drops are underwhelming. If I'm not mistaken the flashpoints and ops for the non-set gear drop all mk-1 gear, which I believe is the exact same terrible gear as the comm bought stuff. The flashpoints and ops should be dropping mk-2 gear, which can actually be useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irishseeker Posted February 19, 2015 Author Share Posted February 19, 2015 (edited) But it doesn't make sense to me that the gear requirement is 186 and the drops are gear rating 184 (except for last boss drop) and btw I am mainly referring to the two new HM FPs: Blood Hunt and Battle of Rishi Edited February 19, 2015 by irishseeker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 It's always been like that, where the only drops you're really after are from the last boss (or bonus boss). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warrgames Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 (edited) They aren't hard, the problem is people fail at the mech and don't know how to play their class. The only way most people can clear content is by over gearing because they are BAD; plain and simple. Healer don't know how to cleanse. Tanks don't use defensive cool downs when spike damage is coming. DPS tunnel vision. Caster finish the cast instead of moving, so they get hit by stuff. Edited February 19, 2015 by Warrgames Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsenex Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 (edited) 192 or higher is not required to finish the flashpoint. When 3.0 first launched I finished all of the HM flashpoints (plus bonus bosses) with pretty much all 180/186 gear, and the old augments. Sure, it's easier to overgear the content, but that gear isn't a requirement. Though I do agree that the drops are underwhelming. If I'm not mistaken the flashpoints and ops for the non-set gear drop all mk-1 gear, which I believe is the exact same terrible gear as the comm bought stuff. The flashpoints and ops should be dropping mk-2 gear, which can actually be useful. Million, before I leave, please go and pug up Rishi and wear only the recommended gear or ONLY 186 and post a utube of you successfully doing all of it including bonus..remember, ONLY 186 and you have to cue up as a pug... My point is it is NOT possible to do any of the new HM in the 'recommended' 178 gear as a pick up group of people who do not have voice. I challenge anyone here to prove me (hopefully) wrong. Furthermore why bang your head for such crap in the end? Edited February 19, 2015 by Larsenex additions and spelling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Wicked Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 They aren't hard, the problem is people fail at the mech and don't know how to play their class. The only way most people can clear content is by over gearing because they are BAD; plain and simple. And even then, some will suck terribly. Nothing is -- or was -- more frustrating than running DP SM with a PUG, and having the Council "enraging" on us while watching this Gunslinger spamming Charged Burst until he ran out of energy, or a Guardian attacking the wrong DM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irishseeker Posted February 19, 2015 Author Share Posted February 19, 2015 (edited) Million, before I leave, please go and pug up Rishi and wear only the recommended gear or ONLY 186 and post a utube of you successfully doing all of it including bonus..remember, ONLY 186 and you have to cue up as a pug... My point is it is NOT possible to do any of the new HM in the 'recommended' 178 gear as a pick up group of people who do not have voice. I challenge anyone here to prove me (hopefully) wrong. Furthermore why bang your head for such crap in the end? ^ He has got a point. Thank you Larsenex! Edited February 19, 2015 by irishseeker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZETA_SCORPII Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Rewards suck bad, but I just run them for the fun of completing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerkWork Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 And even then, some will suck terribly. Nothing is -- or was -- more frustrating than running DP SM with a PUG, and having the Council "enraging" on us while watching this Gunslinger spamming Charged Burst until he ran out of energy, or a Guardian attacking the wrong DM. Even at the end I saw many groups who couldn't kill Brontes before the Council came back down for phase 3. Then half would get zapped by Brontes Lightening. Baddies will be Bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Million, before I leave, please go and pug up Rishi and wear only the recommended gear or ONLY 186 and post a utube of you successfully doing all of it including bonus..remember, ONLY 186 and you have to cue up as a pug... My point is it is NOT possible to do any of the new HM in the 'recommended' 178 gear as a pick up group of people who do not have voice. I challenge anyone here to prove me (hopefully) wrong. Furthermore why bang your head for such crap in the end? If everything has to be balanced for the average dumb pug then why not just have them all be tacticals? These are HM flashpoints, they should be challenging. If it can be done in the recommended gear it can be done in the recommended gear, PUG or not has nothing to do with it. "Well why can't my group of idiots who ignore all mechanics beat this fight? It's impossible in this gear!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irishseeker Posted February 19, 2015 Author Share Posted February 19, 2015 If everything has to be balanced for the average dumb pug then why not just have them all be tacticals? These are HM flashpoints, they should be challenging. If it can be done in the recommended gear it can be done in the recommended gear, PUG or not has nothing to do with it. "Well why can't my group of idiots who ignore all mechanics beat this fight? It's impossible in this gear!" So you are saying you could do both of the new HM FPs in only 186 gear with random people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 (edited) So you are saying you could do both of the new HM FPs in only 186 gear with random people? I haven't tried them yet, but I don't see why not. But my point was that saying it has to be doable by the average PUG is missing the point. Because your average PUG can't clear anything better than SM without completely overgearing it. If you're paired with bad players that can't do mechanics of course it's going to end badly, but that isn't because of the gear, it's because of the player. A lot of people claimed that Lost Island could only be done in Rakata+ gear, when it was actually doable in Recruit or Tionese gear, if you could do the mechanics correctly. Even in Rakata gear though most people couldn't clear it, at least not easily. Edited February 19, 2015 by MillionsKNives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafkin Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 You guys are missing the point. It doesn't matter if you can do them in 186 gear or how awesome your pug is. The vast majority of people are NOT doing them in 186 gear and for the vast majority the loot drops are worthless. Stop turning every thread into "you're just bad". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irishseeker Posted February 19, 2015 Author Share Posted February 19, 2015 I haven't tried them yet, but I don't see why not. But my point was that saying it has to be doable by the average PUG is missing the point. Because your average PUG can't clear anything better than SM without completely overgearing it. If you're paired with bad players that can't do mechanics of course it's going to end badly, but that isn't because of the gear, it's because of the player. A lot of people claimed that Lost Island could only be done in Rakata+ gear, when it was actually doable in Recruit or Tionese gear, if you could do the mechanics correctly. Even in Rakata gear though most people couldn't clear it, at least not easily. Lol, you speak of what you do not know. Try the two new HM (with bonus bosses) in 186 gear and then come back with a response. Besides, main point was that the loot did not match the difficulty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 You guys are missing the point. It doesn't matter if you can do them in 186 gear or how awesome your pug is. The vast majority of people are NOT doing them in 186 gear and for the vast majority the loot drops are worthless. Stop turning every thread into "you're just bad". How many people were running the old flashpoints in 156 gear past the initial launch of 2.0, and yet those only dropped 162, elite comm quality gear also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Besides, main point was that the loot did not match the difficulty. I agreed with this in my first post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warrgames Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 You guys are missing the point. It doesn't matter if you can do them in 186 gear or how awesome your pug is. The vast majority of people are NOT doing them in 186 gear and for the vast majority the loot drops are worthless. Stop turning every thread into "you're just bad". It could drop 198 gear on the last boss and bonus boss and offer ultimate comms for completing it and guess what? People still aren't going to be able to do because they are bad. You are only going to get a lot more bad players queue for it because of the better rewards. Better rewards don't make better players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GopherLuV Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Better rewards don't make better players. ^^^^^ This..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 It could drop 198 gear on the last boss and bonus boss and offer ultimate comms for completing it and guess what? People still aren't going to be able to do because they are bad. You are only going to get a lot more bad players queue for it because of the better rewards. Better rewards don't make better players. Better rewards alone don't make better players, but....better rewards provide more incentive, which leads to more attempts, which leads to more experience, which leads to better players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ludoviccb Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 (edited) The main problem is that the gear is so bad that players that can clear it don't need that gear since they can do Ravager or Temple of Sacrifice to get better gear faster. The result is that the best players won't do those flashpoints unless it's to help a guildmate since there is nothing in those for them. I've cleared all those FP at least 1 time including Bloodhunt and Battle of Rishi HM and don't feel compelled to queue up for those unless it's with guildmates. The 1.X HM FP were giving set bonus pieces. It was leading people to do those FP to get those pieces and gear up their toons. I was running the level 50 HM a lot when I had a new toon to gear up, since it was giving me the set bonus until I could do EC or TfB on it. Now, I don't feel compelled to wait the time needed in queue to get the GF since the rewards aren't worth the time for it (it's the same issue that I got with the GF 16m operations those extra coms aren't worth the effort to get). I would run a lot more those Hard Mode Flashpoints if each FP was droping a specific186 gear token for the new set bonus than 192 random drop. I would run them to get at least 6 pieces of set bonus per toon which is a lot more than I run them right now. Edited February 19, 2015 by ludoviccb typo correction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warrgames Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 (edited) Better rewards alone don't make better players, but....better rewards provide more incentive, which leads to more attempts, which leads to more experience, which leads to better players. Sorry Tux but you are wrong. If a player doesn't want to put in the effort to learn mech and how to play their character now, they aren't going to do it for a better reward. If they had the interest than they would already do it. They just want to be spoon feed their gear. If this was true Tux, they would be progression raider. Where you raise to the challenge for better gear. Edited February 19, 2015 by Warrgames Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Sorry Tux but you are wrong. If a player doesn't want to put in the effort to learn mech and how to play their character now, they aren't going to do it for a better reward. If they had the interest than they would already do it. They just want to be spoon feed their gear. You've misunderstood my point... The better the reward, the more times it'll be run to get that reward. Practice doesn't make perfect, but it certainly helps, because even the laziest of players will learn through repetition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warrgames Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 You've misunderstood my point... The better the reward, the more times it'll be run to get that reward. Practice doesn't make perfect, but it certainly helps, because even the laziest of players will learn through repetition. I understood your point. The thing you missed is you cant teach and old dog new tricks. If the person doesn't want to learn they are going to. No matter how many times they do something. 10 wipes yesterday day on 2nd boss or HM BH and mara in group kept getting Jos dot when he jumps because he would not move. We told him every you got move when you see him start to cast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 I understood your point. The thing you missed is you cant teach and old dog new tricks. If the person doesn't want to learn they are going to. No matter how many times they do something. 10 wipes yesterday day on 2nd boss or HM BH and mara in group kept getting Jos dot when he jumps because he would not move. We told him every you got move when you see him start to cast. Well of course, there's a reason schools still have short buses, I realize there are exceptions to the rule...but overall, I still believe that better rewards and more experience are better for the game...most players will learn to be better from experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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