Getting tired of content difficulty, not because of the actual difficulty, but people

[Pagy]

Perhaps you would like to explain to everyone just how you ran ToS, Ravagers, Blood Hunt HM and Battle of Rishi HM without teamspeak.

i've done all of these without voice...i just did hm bh last night for the first time in a pug. done both tos and ravagers w/o voice.

how?

i had competent groups. i'm sure if i had terribles that didnt know the fights, it would have been much harder. i pull over 5k dps dude...how do i clear things?

mmo players all seem to have an ego no matter how good they actually are. like the fact is SO SHOCKING if they actually aren't as good as they think they are. whats the harm in admitting you aren't good? that's the first step to getting better.

 

I for one raid everyday, I havent even seen a pug group that wouldnt boot you if you didnt have voice comm's for these op/fp runs and/or had the achievements to prove you did so that they understood you didnt have to be in comm's.

i think we're confusing the issue. you claimed voice comms were needed. now you're saying "lots of people request you use it".

 

well i dont blame those people. the avg player isn't very good and if they want to ensure a smooth run, they can use voice comms or achievments to decide if they want to invite them.

 

but just because they want it used, that doesnt make it needed. two different statements entirely.

You're something else. Just stop posting and derailing the discussion.

um...no(?)

[kirorx]

ops are ops, so i cant say they are supposed to be a challenge, but flashpoints....they seem a bit more difficult these days.

 

I still think doing flashpoints when level 50 was the top was the best time. We had a huge option and most of them were there own storylines, some of which had cut scenes. They were not super challenging, they were just fun to play.

 

Today its just recycled content made more challenging, its ok...but its not as fun as boarding party

[FerkWork]

i had competent groups. i'm sure if i had terribles that didnt know the fights, it would have been much harder. i pull over 5k dps dude...how do i clear things?

mmo players all seem to have an ego no matter how good they actually are. like the fact is SO SHOCKING if they actually aren't as good as they think they are. whats the harm in admitting you aren't good?

 

Pics on 5k DPS in a fight (and Malaphar or Torque doesn't count ). You should follow your advice about ego dude. While I personally don't find these Ops challenging in SM (My guild spends the Ruuger fight trying to kill a random guildie for the giggles) this shows that are some people who do and I believe alienating any amount of players is not a good move. I don't understand why people are patting themselves on the back and telling others to get good for beating story mode. Real progression and challenge is in HM (Eventually NiM) as what me and my guild is doing. You do SM to gear up. Do your stuff and play. Making SM easier for others doesn't ruin my experience and neither other Raiders cause We are only interested in the challenges that HM/NiM bring. That's what real goods do

Edited February 22, 2015 by FerkWork

[Heat-Wave]

There is another thing to think about too: With every new expansion, Bioware has to at least HOPE that they're attracting new players. Now, imagine you're a new player, reaching lvl 60 for the first time, and these are the FPs and OPs you have available (because all the previous content is now off the GF). Even if they run the tacticals first, those don't even really help much, since nobody really plays their role anyways and you just ROFLstomp your way through without having to worry about mechanics. So you switch to HM because you figure it'll probably be a bit more difficult but still managable but then...

 

WHAM!!! You hit a HUGE difficulty spike. The difference between Tactical and HM is ridiculous, and for new players, will likely just turn them away. L2P the elitists will say. "Go watch videos and read guides" they'll chant endlessly. Really?

 

^ This, right here...

 

Elites can say learn to play all they want, but they'll quickly find a very small game with very little in the way of updates with that attitude, there won't be enough paying customers since they'll come in, give it a try, discover this, and leave.

[GopherLuV]

So it keeps going back and forth here...

 

The OP (from what I remember..) centered on the quitters... the people unwilling to learn, unwilling to take advice on how to not die from this or that...

It went into some about how the new HMs and ops are way to difficult, also touching how the HM FPs had horse **** for rewards...

Yes, they should probably increase rewards in the HM FPs, but seriously barring the bonus boss, they aren't difficult... they have mechanics most certainly that you MUST do... but older HM FPs used to.. (I remember a time when nobody in hell wanted to run the Czerka labs and the other czerka becauseeeeeeeee they were semi-difficult!!!!)

The operations, to make these easier you would have to start removing mechanics or negate mechanics by nerfing the damage... so like, take away rapid fire and red circles on sword squad, or make the ads in underlurker only have 50k hp and put out less damage.... Now TBH I have no problem with this, as someone said, the SM content is there to gear up for the HM / NiM content... But, I do find it a nice change of pace to actually have an operation that isn't face-rollable...

In the end, (IMO!) It's the fact that these new ops have real mechanics which aren't avoidable.. and people (SM warriors and casual players looking to pug) not willing and/or unable to correctly implement these mechanics. It happened at 55 on many bosses... I'm sure you've all seen hundreds of wipes on operator IX in pugs (just in SM!), i'm sure you've seen wipes on Gate Commander Draxus because people don't know where to go or what to interupt ( talk about needing voice comms . . . . . . ), we've all seen wipes on Calphayus, and raptus, and dread council, the list goes on and on.... And have you ever tried to run a pug 8/16 man SNV full clear?? I don't think i've ever seen an actual pug group (not pugged in guild/other guilds we know) clear that boss the correct way (without a supergroup clearing it all for them)... So honestly... it's getting old.

 

Yes the rewards in HM FPs suck ballz, deal with it.. Yes, it's very difficult to get ultimate and kinda elite comms now.. so what, the gear blows anyways... Yea, the new operations are actually difficult, but no more so than previous ones.. We just happen to be 2-4 tiers of gear level above the previous ones.. now were matched... (when you have a group in full 192/198 gear run the new ops, you can kill sword squad in 3 bombs... underlurker when the 3rd ad set spawns, malaphar in 1:15s, bulo before the 3rd set of pirates spawn, torque before he can even break 3 consoles, let alone all four... you see my point???)

[annabethchase]

Players have gotten ridiculous. 186 hilt/barrels are readily available on the GTN and are needed for HM FP's yet they refuse to buy them. Why get kicked over a cheap piece of equipment.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Players have gotten ridiculous. 186 hilt/barrels are readily available on the GTN and are needed for HM FP's yet they refuse to buy them. Why get kicked over a cheap piece of equipment.

 

I'd rather craft them, but I can't right now.

[MisterBlackJack]

Here's the thing. I love difficult content. I do. I like that the new content is difficult - I do.

 

But what I'm not liking...is how the content is making people, and the kind of stuff that's being mandated by new content. It's making people into quitters, wanting to give up, etc. I like difficulty, but you know what burns me out? Is negative, defeatist attitudes. And I acknowledge that it's brought on by this new content.

 

The other issue I have is that there are SO MANY FIGHTS now, where if ONE person dies, the entire fight is completely boned. Completely. And then there are other fights - I just tried HM Rishi's bonus last night, that basically mandate two cleansers. So my group of tank, slightly undergeared marauder, sniper, sorc might as well just have not bothered instead of wasting all the time we did trying to beat it.

 

My other issue with it is...Excepting the boss and bonus boss, these bosses drop 184 gear. This means you should be able to get by with 184 gear or less, because when you do content in any video game, you should expect the rewards, assuming you are rewarded with gear, should be an upgrade to what you currently have equipped. This is only the case half the time - less than half if you don't do bonus bosses, and is not only NOT an upgrade, but isn't even on-par with what most people come to HM's with - 186's.

 

It's starting to stress me out because it's just too much BS all in one big ball.

 

I like the HM's, but it's like I have to run it with only ideal groups with friends who technically overgear (because their gear is higher than 184 - and in case of the friends who can clear it, more often than not they're in full 192+).

 

I like the difficulty, guys, I do, but something has to give. The rewards need to be better, or the fights need to be fine tuned to have a little less BS to them. I really, really dislike that if one person dies, there are so many fights that you might as well just /stuck at that point. I realize one could make the argument of "stop grouping with bads", but I don't really want to. I would like to at least be kind of able to carry one person in a group. Not all of my friends are good players, but I think three good players should be able to carry a bad fourth, and that's just not been the case in my experience. :/

 

You don't need 2 clensers the healer just focus on cleaning the tank marauders and snipers can cleanse themselves

[MisterBlackJack]

Here's the thing. I love difficult content. I do. I like that the new content is difficult - I do.

 

But what I'm not liking...is how the content is making people, and the kind of stuff that's being mandated by new content. It's making people into quitters, wanting to give up, etc. I like difficulty, but you know what burns me out? Is negative, defeatist attitudes. And I acknowledge that it's brought on by this new content.

 

The other issue I have is that there are SO MANY FIGHTS now, where if ONE person dies, the entire fight is completely boned. Completely. And then there are other fights - I just tried HM Rishi's bonus last night, that basically mandate two cleansers. So my group of tank, slightly undergeared marauder, sniper, sorc might as well just have not bothered instead of wasting all the time we did trying to beat it.

 

My other issue with it is...Excepting the boss and bonus boss, these bosses drop 184 gear. This means you should be able to get by with 184 gear or less, because when you do content in any video game, you should expect the rewards, assuming you are rewarded with gear, should be an upgrade to what you currently have equipped. This is only the case half the time - less than half if you don't do bonus bosses, and is not only NOT an upgrade, but isn't even on-par with what most people come to HM's with - 186's.

 

It's starting to stress me out because it's just too much BS all in one big ball.

 

I like the HM's, but it's like I have to run it with only ideal groups with friends who technically overgear (because their gear is higher than 184 - and in case of the friends who can clear it, more often than not they're in full 192+).

 

I like the difficulty, guys, I do, but something has to give. The rewards need to be better, or the fights need to be fine tuned to have a little less BS to them. I really, really dislike that if one person dies, there are so many fights that you might as well just /stuck at that point. I realize one could make the argument of "stop grouping with bads", but I don't really want to. I would like to at least be kind of able to carry one person in a group. Not all of my friends are good players, but I think three good players should be able to carry a bad fourth, and that's just not been the case in my experience. :/

 

You don't need 2 clensers the healer just focus on cleaning the tank marauders and snipers can cleanse themselves

[Cypherz]

Fear not though, the development team in charge of designing operation content and associated difficulty do not care that you cannot clear their content. They design their Operations with one guild in mind. They want to make content challenging for that One guild. Do they care that the one guild happens to be leaps and bounds above every other guild in the game? No. They want to spend all their efforts (fruitlessly) to ensure that the one guild remains subscribed by making "HM" ops absurdly difficult for the rest of the vast majority of other Paying subscribers. Better to satisfy the few and displease the many than to satisfy the many and displease the few, amirite?

 

On the bright side (for that one guild at least), since "SM Progression" is now a thing, that one guild can sell "SM" runs for millions of credits.

 

The fact that BioWare has not made adjustments to difficulty curb this practice shows how little they care about the PVE community (and even less about the small PVP Community), outside of an obsessive focus of keeping one guild in the game Almost challenged by the content.

 

You know something is wrong with the difficulty when players are selling runs for STORY MODE content.

 

Yeah, they're kind of shooting themselves in the foot with this whole difficulty philosophy. It should still take a moderately above average skill level to clear the HM raids, but not how it is right now where you absolutely must be part of a select few elite cream of the crop players in order to kill these bosses. I'm seriously dreading what BW is going to do with these fights for NiM, I would imagine you'll be able to count on one hand the amount of groups that will even have a remote chance of beating 10/10.

 

But alas, that's what you get when that same pool of select few elite cream of the crop players are the only ones testing the raids in the closed beta and, no matter what BW does with the fights, they'll always say it needs to be harder.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Cypherz

[GopherLuV]

These "elite few" you speak of are honestly not much different from many of the serious endgame raiders... the main difference is that they have a VERY SET group who runs so much more often than other normal groups your head would spin... a group thats been running together for a very long time (doesn't mean just 8 people.. could be 25 people who always run with eachother and are very familiar with eachother) and has some skill, obviously.. runs these bosses 4 + nights a week for a few hours each night, maybe more.. it's not that hard to see why they get so good and down content so quickly...

If you took 8 real good players, told them to farm up SM until they had some nice gear (honestly like 2 weeks of work with how many alts most would have.. maybe less..) then said from thursday till monday your going to run this raid from 6pm until 12pm, take a break in the middle to discuss points that are tripping you up, causing wipes, diff strats possible, etc etc... they could run through all 10 in a few weeks easily...

[Cypherz]

These "elite few" you speak of are honestly not much different from many of the serious endgame raiders... the main difference is that they have a VERY SET group who runs so much more often than other normal groups your head would spin... a group thats been running together for a very long time (doesn't mean just 8 people.. could be 25 people who always run with eachother and are very familiar with eachother) and has some skill, obviously.. runs these bosses 4 + nights a week for a few hours each night, maybe more.. it's not that hard to see why they get so good and down content so quickly...

If you took 8 real good players, told them to farm up SM until they had some nice gear (honestly like 2 weeks of work with how many alts most would have.. maybe less..) then said from thursday till monday your going to run this raid from 6pm until 12pm, take a break in the middle to discuss points that are tripping you up, causing wipes, diff strats possible, etc etc... they could run through all 10 in a few weeks easily...

 

That's what I'm saying. It shouldn't take massively high amounts of effort to clear HM like it does currently. Some of the current HM fights are arguably harder than DF/DP NiM pre-nerf. Alienating the vast majority of the playerbase that don't have the patience or time to pull one individual boss for 12 hours a week isn't exactly the smartest decision on BW's part. Save that kind of **** for NiM where it belongs.

[Transcendent]

And the slow rate at getting Ultimates now? Psh. I dunno *** people over in Bioware's product team are thinking, but they really need to reassess how they handle key aspects of this game.

 

There is little point bothering to grind for those Ultimate commendations to start with, especially once you look at the endurance heavy mods / enhancements.

 

There isn't any content asides from HM flashpoints or SM / HM operations that would require them, and seeing as the rewards for the HM flashpoints are rubbish that rules out that as being worthwhile running. As for SM / HM operations? I'll pass, I'm not into progression raiding, which is what they feel like they've been tuned to.

 

The problem I see is this though, plenty of players complained about content being "dumbed down" and "too easy". So the moment BioWare ramp it up? Yeah, now it's "too hard" or "isn't pug friendly".

 

Seriously, how hard is it to have SM operations as "pug friendly", and HM operations as "progression raiding". Tactical flashpoints you can pretty much ignore mechanics on, HM flashpoints should require mechanics and reward accordingly (as someone pointed out you used to run these to gear for operations content) .

 

The real issue is that BioWare have completely screwed up the gear rewards, commendations gear, commendations rewards for the end game content to be really worthwhile running, unless of course you're a masochist.

[jrwellworth]

Edit: seems someone posted before i did and I mean the guy above the guy above me, lol

 

Not to be a dick to the guy above me or the guy he originally quoted, but zorz isnt the only guild that likes difficult content, and they are not the only players in the game that can clear difficult content. (cause let's be honest, all the "for that one specific guild" ***** is about zorz) I will agree that these raids are difficult. We are also not insanly over geared like we were towards the end of 2.x and people became used to that, they became used to facerolling content.

 

It is indeed hard, but wouldn't you rather achieve something? Feel awesome when you kick Revans ***? I remember downing HM council for the first time, after the hard work that went into it, it feels awesome. There is a problem though, in that the group finder is a 16 man deal, which is a good bit harder and most folks are not in voice comm. Group finder content needs to be able to be cleared under those conditions I think, no voice and with rando people. I know many cannot at this time and maybe that should be looked at.

 

As for the dude who was talking about 'sm progression' and people selling storymode runs. To them I say lol. If you pay for a story mode run, idk, i just don't know what to say to that except that it is not needed but if people are willing to pay then fk it do it up.

Edited February 22, 2015 by jrwellworth

[GopherLuV]

That's what I'm saying. It shouldn't take massively high amounts of effort to clear HM like it does currently. Some of the current HM fights are arguably harder than DF/DP NiM pre-nerf. Alienating the vast majority of the playerbase that don't have the patience or time to pull one individual boss for 12 hours a week isn't exactly the smartest decision on BW's part. Save that kind of **** for NiM where it belongs.

 

Oh no.. not what I meant.. obviously yes HM is akin to NiM progression right now, that's awesome honestly... i mean people with that much time to raid can clear them full in a matter of weeks... It's really not that hard if a groups been together for a bit to go down the first 2-3 in ravagers (torque is kinda a ***** if nobody in the groups done it... but, it gets easier and easier.. melee be warned, you will hate life) and the first two in ToS are pretty easy honestly, both 2nd bosses just take some time getting used to it...

 

Bulo my 1st pull was 26 wipes.. closest to kill was like 13% or somethin.. 2nd time, 7 trys, downed him ok... 3rd time in there, think it was 3 but one was a fudge (accidental pull or something i dont remember)... it gets much easier after people are familiar with it.

 

As I said earlier, the current tier of operations cannot be run overgeared... the people who do HM progression will be very slightly overgeared for the SM content.. but mixed 186/192 gear is what SM needs in reality... before, the DF/DP SM required 162/168 gear... the difference was that almost everyone was really mixed 168/180 gear (many were FULL 180... ultimate comms were very very easy to come by, easily 150 max out per week...) so it seemed a hell of a lot easier.. If we were all wearing 198 gear from the comm vendors right now, rav and tos would be a cake walk honestly.. you'de still have mechanics to deal with and i'm sure people would wipe, but they did in DF/DP as well..

 

The ops, are not overly diffcult... they just require a person to not be ignorant of mechanics or their class... not everyone KNOWS these mechanics yet so yes, voice chat is unbeatable... but it could easily be typed out so long as you could shut the group up of trolls for a few sec to explain... it does require people to know how to play well, again since were AT the gear level, not over geared... if I was in like 210 rating gear I could fumble around in my rotation and still pull 3500+ DPS i'm sure... that's not the case in 192/198 gear..

 

The FPs, absolutely ********.. way to difficult for the rewards given, but if you ignore the fact you gain NOTHING from them, they really aren't that hard, because the same as ops, were not overgeared (old HM FPs were same low *** gear ratings... the first tier with a 180 recommended gear rating was DP HM ((DF was 174..))... )... So basically, what this all boils down to is people aren't 2-4 tiers above the recomended gear level, and thus they think the content is WAY TO DIFFICULT!!!! Sorry but.. man the **** up, learn to play your class better, push some better DPS out, start explaining the fights to pug group memebers, if they dont wanna listen, leave.. (i was tanking a DF SM back in the day.. tried to tell people where to go in each phase, one single player said some trollness about JUST PULL PULL PULL.. he leroyed, i /stuck and bailed... that simple..) If you seriously cannot find ANY competent pug groups on your server, ever... then i guess your gonna have to join a guild that runs or wait till we have 210+ gear from the next tier of operations to faceroll these ones...

[FerkWork]

It seems we're talking about multiple things which is causing some confusion. Regarding all 3 in my opinion:

1)HM is fine as it is as its their for the challenge and I enjoy the greater challenge it brings.

2)SM needs to be toned down a little (especially in 16 man mode) Rest L2P

3) HM Fps needs better rewards. If not gear like the old Fps at lv 50 LI, then more vanity stuff. First boss on BH tune down a little.

 

Edited for update on opinion

Edited March 3, 2015 by FerkWork

[GopherLuV]

It seems we're talking about multiple things which is causing some confusion. Regarding all 3 in my opinion:

1)HM is fine as it is as its their for the challenge and I enjoy the greater challenge it brings.

2)SM needs to be toned down a little (especially in 16 man mode) as SM is their for the masses in a casual environment to enjoy not . Tired of seeing guilds boast in chat their 10/10 on each for SM with no HM achievs as many of them support this weird notion of "SM Progression" , cool story but I digress.

3) HM Fps needs better rewards. If not gear like the old Fps at lv 50 LI, then more vanity stuff. First boss on BH tune down a little.

 

Agree with all of that... Honestly I don't think SM 8 man is really bad... i guess i'm just spoiled though as I never have run it in a pug... only in pug with my guild or guilds who we exchange players with a lot.. so I may well be very spoiled in there.. it's just not hard... I do very much agree than 16 man needs to be toned down and quite honestly they need a way to turn off the animations from some of the mechanics so that it's not such a huge hit to FPS (underlurker ads, do SOMETHING with torque.. etc..)

[Declan_Vee]

At this point in the games life the only thing I can think of which would help to upskill the broader playerbase would be... hmm... If a developer were to go back in time to before 2.0; and removed the ultimate comms from the loot table for all story mode operations.

 

Sadly I think that's rather unlikely and recruiting/pugging will continue to be the current NiM content.

[E-Zekiel]

 

I think the biggest reason a pug group is going to fail is mechanics issues, before 3.0, any pug group I was in basically ignored ALL mechanics.. they just weren't necessary since you were 3 tiers above the gear requirement for DF/DP SM with just comm gear (which was VERY easy to get...) Now you can buy easy to obtain comm gear but you actually AT the gear level required. It's real endgame again...

 

No, you really couldn't just ignore mechanics for the most part unless you were in the best of the best highest tier gear - even then it depended on the group. Those groups were uncommon. But the difficulty wasn't totally ridiculous.

 

ANd to those saying "get a guild to do this content!" I have a guild, I lead it and I run content and do operations. The operations honestly are not what I'm complaining about, it's the HM FP's. I never do them anymore UNLESS IT'S WITH GUILDIES because they are simply an exercise in frustration otherwise. I can't go out and have fun in a group with random strangers, because now the groups that frustrate me and are pointless are the rule, when they should be the exception.

 

And again, it's NOT THE DIFFICULTY ITSELF that pisses me off, although a few fights are pretty bull **** when they add RNG into mechanics that massively hamper groups, it's just that I don't have fun in PUG's anymore. I had fun with them at 55. Now I don't. I don't give a crap about people who were crying about it being too easy before, the point for me was that it was fun, it had me actively playing the game rather than shying away from content.

 

How should you design a game? So that people want to play it. How should you design an MMO's PVE? SO that people want to play together.

 

This new stuff has me not wanting to play with people I don't know. This is NOT okay. Again, specifically talking about HM FP's here. Once in awhile? Sure, I get great PUG's. I tanked a Manaan flashpoint with three pickups, nobody knew each other, and we one-pulled every boss and cleared the zone quickly. Those are the VERY RARE exceptions though. The exceptions should be the crappy groups, not the good groups. That's *** backwards.

 

And to those of you biting back about how it SHOULD be really hard - I say no. It should only be vaguely difficult. Have mechanics you can't ignore, that you have to react to, but not be completely ridiculous with a ridiculous curve like they have now. Can I do it? Yes. But there are a ton of people that can't, and in a PUG those are usually people I'm teamed with. And I'm okay being teamed with those people, because I don't judge another person's value by how well they play the game. It's only when they are frustratingly god-awful that I'd prefer to avoid them. If they're mediocre, that's fine. I just want to get into a group and run some stuff with people I dunno and have fun.

 

And again to those saying HM should be really hard - I'm gonna have to disagree. There is no "story mode" or "normal mode" since level 50. Even 55 had tactical or hard mode only - no such thing as story mode. This is because story mode was low-level stuff. Like, literally. Story mode Hammer Station was level..what, 18? Lol.

 

So right now it's two modes: "Extremely easy for PUGs" and "stab myself in the ribs frustrating mode for PUGs". This is not okay or acceptable in game design. It just isn't.

 

Hard mode FP's at 55 were fine because they were middle of the road. If you wanted the real, actual difficult content, you had operations for that. And that seems totally fine to me.

 

 

Anyway, bear in mind that my original reason for the thread was mostly aimed at HM FP's, not really raid content. I'm okay with the raid content because you generally need a guild for that over time anyway, and there are three levels of difficulty available to play.

 

For flaspoints, that's not the case. There's ridiculously easy for PUG's and stupidly hard for PUG's. There is no "normal" mode. Tactical is basically easy mode.

 

I mean the closest thing to normal mode now is the level 55 FP's, and because they're so outleveled and outgeared as a rule now,, they're just too easy now too. I'd like to see an actual "normal" mode for current stuff. That's more or less how I was the HM 55's. Some of them were a little harder than the others, but most of them were "normal". I remember before they upped the GF rewards, the Czerka zones were basically the challengers, the rest were like normal mode.

 

But yeah...

[FalmeseReb]

Agree with all of that... Honestly I don't think SM 8 man is really bad... i guess i'm just spoiled though as I never have run it in a pug... only in pug with my guild or guilds who we exchange players with a lot.. so I may well be very spoiled in there.. it's just not hard... I do very much agree than 16 man needs to be toned down and quite honestly they need a way to turn off the animations from some of the mechanics so that it's not such a huge hit to FPS (underlurker ads, do SOMETHING with torque.. etc..)

 

sm underlurker with a true pug is as close to hell as you get to on Swtor.

[lightSaberAddiCt]

There was a time when I could wipe on raid bosses all night and not get frustrated or discouraged but those days are long gone now.

 

I wouldn't join a raid or party without the intent of seeing it through but people have less patience these days and Im not exactly going to fault them for it (ditching), especially if the rewards are subpar.

 

Yeah those days are dead. Sad thing is a wipe today is totally carebear. I mean it is a slight repair cost. Try doing a boss raid like lady vox in EQ, where when you wipe you have to run back naked, through a whole cave of frost giants, and most likely have to pay a necro to summon your corpse. If you didnt get it in time, you would lose all your gear.

 

not to mention each death, you lost experience...

Edited March 3, 2015 by lightSaberAddiCt

[Heat-Wave]

Yeah those days are dead. Sad thing is a wipe today is totally carebear. I mean it is a slight repair cost. Try doing a boss raid like lady vox in EQ, where when you wipe you have to run back naked, through a whole cave of frost giants, and most likely have to pay a necro to summon your corpse. If you didnt get it in time, you would lose all your gear.

 

not to mention each death, you lost experience...

 

Yes, and those days should be gone since they never had a chance of attracting a huge audience...

 

What a horrible experience that would be. Did EQ have fans? Yes, but once shown a better way, many left. Also, did EQ ever have millions of subs? What do they have now?

 

What is even sadder is that SWTOR DOESN'T have millions of subs, when it should. That it doesn't is totally a reflection on how incompetent Bioware has become.

[CKNORTH]

Yes, and those days should be gone since they never had a chance of attracting a huge audience...

 

What a horrible experience that would be. Did EQ have fans? Yes, but once shown a better way, many left. Also, did EQ ever have millions of subs? What do they have now?

 

What is even sadder is that SWTOR DOESN'T have millions of subs, when it should. That it doesn't is totally a reflection on how incompetent Bioware has become.

 

I believe that EQ went into Guines book of world records for having 1m people online at once when they fixed the bazaar when luclin launched.. I know I was there man! Hehe but now with defiant gear in EQ you can just about cap any class at lvl 52 and solo Naggy! But Vox is a challenge because if you get close to here room the entire room swarms you, all in all EQ is now prepping for a new progression server, in a lot of ways I have talked to people who have played that game since Beta and never left for another game. That is hardcore amazing to me. All games have those people tho. Not many but some....

Edited March 3, 2015 by CKNORTH

[Heat-Wave]

I believe that EQ went into Guines book of world records for having 1m people online at once when they fixed the bazaar when luclin launched.. I know I was there man! Hehe but now with defiant gear in EQ you can just about cap any class at lvl 52 and solo Naggy! But Vox is a challenge because if you get close to here room the entire room swarms you, all in all EQ is now prepping for a new progression server, in a lot of ways I have talked to people who have played that game since Beta and never left for another game. That is hardcore amazing to me. All games have those people tho. Not many but some....

 

http://www.eqhammer.com/article/why-do-you-still-everquest

 

I found that to be an interesting read...

 

From what I understand, the "harshness" of the old EQ is largely gone now, nerfed down a bit in various ways. Of course EQ has been F2P for 3 years now, so you really can't compare what it was 10 years ago to today.

 

I suspect the market for such harsh games is quite small, most people don't want to come home from their work and have a second job. They want something to kick back and have fun with.

 

If you want harsh... EVE Online is that way --->

[CKNORTH]

http://www.eqhammer.com/article/why-do-you-still-everquest

 

I found that to be an interesting read...

 

From what I understand, the "harshness" of the old EQ is largely gone now, nerfed down a bit in various ways. Of course EQ has been F2P for 3 years now, so you really can't compare what it was 10 years ago to today.

 

I suspect the market for such harsh games is quite small, most people don't want to come home from their work and have a second job. They want something to kick back and have fun with.

 

If you want harsh... EVE Online is that way --->

 

Yeah it was rough in EQ for a long time back in 2003? WoW hit the shelves, the part that was interesting if you look back wow was almost a complete copy of EQ however wow wasn't prepaired for the mass Exodus of EQ, and for about two years wow was nearly unplayable because they lowbid on there servers. They had like 5 hour queues, totaly unstable and it was a big mess. But people in no way wanted anything to do with SOE and with the nerf to SWG, it was the driving nail in the coffin. But they have persevered non the less! The only other game with longevity that stomps both games is EA's UO! Now that game was rough back in 1995!

 

Sorry for that brief geek moment in MMO history!