Max_Killjoy Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) The follow up of course is... What would be the point, beyond seeing the stories a few times, of continuing to play the game, if everyone had end game gear? --- Humans respond to rewards, without them, people don't do much. How many lotto winners really keep their jobs? I'm sure you could find one example, but I'll bet most don't. People work because they have to... People grind because that is the only way to get the end game gear. Without the grind, a lot of people wouldn't do it. Look at the lvl 55 ops, once ultimates were remove, everyone stopped playing them. If people have nothing to grind, they'll stop paying. And that continued payment is the part where your ideas hit the real world, stop being "just a game", and why the game does need an economy. Think about it, single player games that have no sub, also have no "economy", there is no need. You get the best stuff by just playing the story. Want the best guns in Call of Duty single player? Just play, you get them. Want the best guns in Call of Duty multiplayer? Grind city.... when everyone can get everything in unlimited quantities with little effort? it stops being fun. not to mention, when it comes to high end gear - even if you have it, it still doesn't solve the issue of needing a group of people capable of clearing content in order to actualy, you know - utilize it. so what do we do now? simplify content so that everyone can do it? it stops being fun as well. becasue you see, part of the fun is going from the point where you cannot do something - to the point where you can. if you don't have that road? sense of accomplishment and serotonin in your brain cause by it? is lost Interesting. Utterly alien to my experience of life, but interesting. Edited February 16, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeweledleah Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Interesting. Utterly alien to my experience of life, but interesting. do you immediately excell at everything you try? because that is a very unfamiliar experience to me. when I get interested in something, it usually takes effort and time before I'm even remotely adequate at it. I enjoy the effort for the most part (sometimes failing can be frustrating, but as long as you keep making SOME progress, its still fun in the end) but once everything finally clicks into place? its amazing. its especially evident with art and crafts. even once you are better at it - it still takes time. but once you finish and you look at the result and its just.. pretty awesome feeling becasue YOU accomplished it. in game, this usually something that mainly happens with ops for me, but that feeling when you group finally clears that boss you've been having trouble with, after getting better little by little, improving your characters, both gear and performance, refining your group strategy and suddenly it just clicks and bam! dead boss. just this shouted jubilation and yes, that bit of adrenaline rush (without being in a life threatening situation) - its pretty awesome. but it doesn't happen without working up to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bachannal Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Pretty much this. Anyone who doesn't want to pay premium prices for a craftable item always has the option of taking the necessary steps to make it him/herself. I always wonder why the default response seems to be complaints of price-gouging when high-end crafters are unable, by definition, to gouge players on items that anyone can choose to make. Because your level 192 hilt or barrel is not...no, I repeat NOT...EVER worth 2.5 million credits. Period. I get *why* people do it and the reasoning they put behind it, but...yea, still greedy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 do you immediately excell at everything you try? because that is a very unfamiliar experience to me. when I get interested in something, it usually takes effort and time before I'm even remotely adequate at it. I enjoy the effort for the most part (sometimes failing can be frustrating, but as long as you keep making SOME progress, its still fun in the end) but once everything finally clicks into place? its amazing. its especially evident with art and crafts. even once you are better at it - it still takes time. but once you finish and you look at the result and its just.. pretty awesome feeling becasue YOU accomplished it. in game, this usually something that mainly happens with ops for me, but that feeling when you group finally clears that boss you've been having trouble with, after getting better little by little, improving your characters, both gear and performance, refining your group strategy and suddenly it just clicks and bam! dead boss. just this shouted jubilation and yes, that bit of adrenaline rush (without being in a life threatening situation) - its pretty awesome. but it doesn't happen without working up to it. If I try something and I can't see the light at the end of the tunnel in short order, I usually walk away. I rarely get enough satisfaction out of the end to justify the amount of frustration that comes at the end. If I don't enjoy doing something, and I'm not getting paid to do it, I rarely do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TX_Angel Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Because your level 192 hilt or barrel is not...no, I repeat NOT...EVER worth 2.5 million credits. Period. I get *why* people do it and the reasoning they put behind it, but...yea, still greedy. Sure it is... if someone pays it, then that is what it is worth... Period... That is how it works... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exastify Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Supply: low Matter transubstantiator: 16m SM ops or HM ops, final boss. So either be in a progression guild or be the lucky 1/16 in an SM. Schematic: Spend 140 comms for an off hand, or for a resolve hilt 37, be the lucky one to get the unassembled mainhand from Revan AND get the schematic for it Demand: high Besides winning the unassembled mainhand in ToS, you have to buy one or make one yourself. For those who say its too expensive, then you can feel free to run the ops yourself and get them. Nobody is being greedy by listing them for millions, they are worth millions because they are hard to obtain. (And yes they are worth that much, people do buy them.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TX_Angel Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 If I try something and I can't see the light at the end of the tunnel in short order, I usually walk away. I rarely get enough satisfaction out of the end to justify the amount of frustration that comes at the end. If I don't enjoy doing something, and I'm not getting paid to do it, I rarely do it. And that is fine... but then MMO end games aren't for you... Such an attitude is not unusual or rare in the real world, lots and lots of people feel that way, it is why people don't save for retirement, don't save for a down payment for a house, and generally live paycheck to paycheck... people like their new shiny toys and don't want to pay for them... And that isn't a crime either, right up until they ***** and moan that the "rich" are screwing them. Which isn't true, but it is a nice happy excuse the poor make to justify their place in life rather than take responsibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TX_Angel Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Interesting. Utterly alien to my experience of life, but interesting. Then you will never be happy with MMOs, what you want out of gaming is found in single player games... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 And that is fine... but then MMO end games aren't for you... Such an attitude is not unusual or rare in the real world, lots and lots of people feel that way, it is why people don't save for retirement, don't save for a down payment for a house, and generally live paycheck to paycheck... people like their new shiny toys and don't want to pay for them... And that isn't a crime either, right up until they ***** and moan that the "rich" are screwing them. Which isn't true, but it is a nice happy excuse the poor make to justify their place in life rather than take responsibility. I have a retirement plan, I have half a year's income in savings, and my income to cost of living ratio puts me squarely in the American middle class. The point? This isn't about real life. It's about games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SelinaH Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Because your level 192 hilt or barrel is not...no, I repeat NOT...EVER worth 2.5 million credits. Period. I get *why* people do it and the reasoning they put behind it, but...yea, still greedy. Just to clarify: I don't run ops. I don't craft for income. Like you, I'm not willing to pay millions of credits for a high-end barrel or hilt -- because none of my in-game activities requires that I have one. That doesn't mean that it's not worth 2.5 million credits to someone else; clearly it is, if players are willing to pay that amount. If I were to actually need a premium mod, I would pony up, or run my sorry butt through the ops. What I wouldn't do is grouse about how high the prices are on something I could learn to craft myself, but prefer not to put in the time and effort for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamtas Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I have a retirement plan, I have half a year's income in savings, and my income to cost of living ratio puts me squarely in the American middle class. The point? This isn't about real life. It's about games. So a single player game doesn't have an economy, it's just a game. An MMO, does have an economy. The fact that it isn't real life does not matter. That fact that it all takes place among pixels does not eliminate the fact that there is an economy. There are have's and have nots just as in real life (and just like in real life, it may not seem "fair" that someone has so much while someone else has so "little"). Someone may have goods that I want and vice versa. We can directly haggle and barter/trade good/credits for wares, or I can use the marketplace to list items at a rate I want to, and if there is a buyer at that rate it gets sold. If too expensive or not priced properly, it won't sell. That is an economy. If there are people willing to pay a rate, the item is sold at that rate. Substitute "they came from a rich family and had college paid for and were able to go into a better job sooner than i was" with "they have more time to play the game and run dailies and make more money than me because I have to work" "IT'S NOT FAIR!!" and you can see how envy and class warfare can still exist in pixel format. It is just a difference between MMOs and single play types of games. But the grind is also what keeps the games solvent while new content is developed and why the game has a much longer play value than a standard single player game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeweledleah Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) If I try something and I can't see the light at the end of the tunnel in short order, I usually walk away. I rarely get enough satisfaction out of the end to justify the amount of frustration that comes at the end. If I don't enjoy doing something, and I'm not getting paid to do it, I rarely do it. heh. if I had that attitude, I never wouldn't have gotten where I am right now. I wouldn't have discovered most of the hobbies I'm now enjoying (especially physical stuff that requires strength and flexibility - qualities that requires regular consistent work) hell, I probably wouldn't even be playing video games becasue when I first started? I was awful. but I wanted to see what happens next, so I got better. some people are gifted and things come easier to them. but even those people need to make effort to actualy display skill. and thing is... none of the things in SWTOR right now are of the "there is no light at the end of the tunnel variety. NONE of them. nearly everything can be accomplished in a relatively short time. including buying those expensive barrels. few days of dailies and you can have yourself a 192 mainhand you don't actualy need but wanted for whatever reason. if few days is too much effort for you.. I don't even know what to say. it took people MAKING those barrels a LOT more than few days to be able to you know, actualy make them. last but not least. unlike real life? video games come with virtually unlimited source of income. dailies. I WISH in real life I could have a guaranteed job with guaranteed pay like that. and in a video game? on the same subscription level at least, we all start off the same. with the same opportunities and the same acess to content. unlike real life where someone from a well off family has a leg up in a world. in video games? we truly are all equal. anyone ANYONE, should they wish to? can get rich in a video game. its a hell of a lot easier than in real life. Edited February 17, 2015 by Jeweledleah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerkWork Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 WTB Commemorative Money tree to go with my Commemorative Meat Tree. Also throw in a Golden Kephess mount as well that breathes fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djiini Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Then you will never be happy with MMOs, what you want out of gaming is found in single player games... Like some kind of Knights of the Old Republic 3?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Like some kind of Knights of the Old Republic 3?! Yep... Which is what the leveling from 1-50 mostly provides... If you stop playing at the end of the story, that is what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 The point? This isn't about real life. It's about games. It is such a foreign concept to you that some people enjoy games that are challenging? You've made a big deal about how a game is not like real life. And you've talked about hiding content behind a "grindwall". Such statements overlook the simple fact that many people are drawn to the "end game" in MMOs because there are things that are NOT EASY TO DO. I'll give you an example for myself. The Lost Island flashpoint was added to the game right around the time I first hit level 50. I gave it a try and was simply demolished. I tried it again and again and again, failing on the first boss. I spent some time on the forums, learned how to play my class better, learned about raid awareness, complex mechanics, spotting a cast and interrupting it before the 0.8 second mark, etc. Eventually, after quite a bit of time, I finally mastered it and defeated LR-5. The first time I did this I literally jumped out of my chair and shouted with excitement. It was an exhilarating feeling! I'll give you another example. My old guild was working on HM EC, but hit a brick wall on Toth and Zorn. We finally mastered the mechanics, but kept hitting enrage. This put things squarely in the realm of "not enough dps", and I was one of the problem players (dps too low). I decided to take matters into my own hands. I read every guide I could lay my hands on, then started practicing on the ops dummy. I mean PRACTICING. I actually spent an entire Saturday afternoon trying this, that and the other types of rotations to see how I could improve my numbers. Over 4 hours of just attacking an ops dummy. At the end of this, my dps had seen a significant increase. The very next day (Sunday), we finally beat T&Z and moved on to the tanks. I felt extremely proud of my accomplishment. I went from a mediocre contributor of the group to the top contributor, all through my own efforts. It may have only been for a game, but I certainly felt pretty great about it. So I think you should recognize that it is OKAY that there are things that are hard to do (or obtain) in this game. Don't just sit there sneering at how much "it's just a game". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSeventhJedi Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 As tons have said, the 36s are just fine for starting ops. After that, well, if you're not in ops to earn the pieces, then why are you concerned about buying them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bachannal Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Just to clarify: I don't run ops. I don't craft for income. Like you, I'm not willing to pay millions of credits for a high-end barrel or hilt -- because none of my in-game activities requires that I have one. That doesn't mean that it's not worth 2.5 million credits to someone else; clearly it is, if players are willing to pay that amount. If I were to actually need a premium mod, I would pony up, or run my sorry butt through the ops. What I wouldn't do is grouse about how high the prices are on something I could learn to craft myself, but prefer not to put in the time and effort for. I should have clarified...none of that stuff is worth that much TO ME. I'll run the OPs for months until I get the loot drop before I pay some greedy mofo that much. I still think it's greedy of folks to list at those values, but that's my own personal opinion - I'm not over here lobbying for price caps or any of that. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeweledleah Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) I should have clarified...none of that stuff is worth that much TO ME. I'll run the OPs for months until I get the loot drop before I pay some greedy mofo that much. I still think it's greedy of folks to list at those values, but that's my own personal opinion - I'm not over here lobbying for price caps or any of that. . so you know that it may take you MONTHS just to get a drop for yourself... and you still think its greedy for them to ask the prices that they do given that you know that it takes more effort than that not only get the drop, but get enough drops so that you actualy learn the recipe? LOGIC. they ask those prices based on the difficulty of getting both the recipe and materials to craft that recipe. you sound like one of those people who come to an artisan fair, look at handmade items and huff "I can get it cheaper at Wallmart" or the ones that think artists charging $50 for a print is just too much "because its a copy" and nevermind the hours on top of hours it took to develop their skill than yet more hours on top of hours that it took to finish that painting and finally cost of the prints to the artists themselves and lets not even talk about other overhead. Edited February 17, 2015 by Jeweledleah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) It is such a foreign concept to you that some people enjoy games that are challenging? You've made a big deal about how a game is not like real life. And you've talked about hiding content behind a "grindwall". Such statements overlook the simple fact that many people are drawn to the "end game" in MMOs because there are things that are NOT EASY TO DO. I'll give you an example for myself. The Lost Island flashpoint was added to the game right around the time I first hit level 50. I gave it a try and was simply demolished. I tried it again and again and again, failing on the first boss. I spent some time on the forums, learned how to play my class better, learned about raid awareness, complex mechanics, spotting a cast and interrupting it before the 0.8 second mark, etc. Eventually, after quite a bit of time, I finally mastered it and defeated LR-5. The first time I did this I literally jumped out of my chair and shouted with excitement. It was an exhilarating feeling! I'll give you another example. My old guild was working on HM EC, but hit a brick wall on Toth and Zorn. We finally mastered the mechanics, but kept hitting enrage. This put things squarely in the realm of "not enough dps", and I was one of the problem players (dps too low). I decided to take matters into my own hands. I read every guide I could lay my hands on, then started practicing on the ops dummy. I mean PRACTICING. I actually spent an entire Saturday afternoon trying this, that and the other types of rotations to see how I could improve my numbers. Over 4 hours of just attacking an ops dummy. At the end of this, my dps had seen a significant increase. The very next day (Sunday), we finally beat T&Z and moved on to the tanks. I felt extremely proud of my accomplishment. I went from a mediocre contributor of the group to the top contributor, all through my own efforts. It may have only been for a game, but I certainly felt pretty great about it. So I think you should recognize that it is OKAY that there are things that are hard to do (or obtain) in this game. Don't just sit there sneering at how much "it's just a game". I'm not suggesting that such things should be taken away. I'm suggesting that if the only thing that drives players do to those things is the boss drops / completion rewards, then something is very wrong. And, suggesting that if the content itself were good enough, people would play it regardless of the rewards. And suggesting that various gear and mods and materials and whatnot that are behind that "grindwall" should also be available in other ways (and no, "buy them from someone who ground them" doesn't count). If the content, and the grind, and the sense of accomplishment for overcoming it, are so great, won't plenty of people do those Ops anyway? And if they don't, and were only doing it to get the "loots"... then what does that tell you about the actual content? But the line that stands out is "The first time I did this I literally jumped out of my chair and shouted with excitement. It was an exhilarating feeling!" -- I don't get elation or excitement or exhilaration from that moment of victory... just a reduction in the anxiety level, and a sense of relief that I haven't failed. Edited February 17, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidelicatessen Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 The point of the game is to enjoy playing the game. Gear, mods, mounts, etc, are all just tools for playing the game. If the only reason to play the content is to get stuff out of it, then the problem is the content itself. This IS a game, but you're forgetting a very important detail: many people play it. Some people only want to play the content, some only want to get stuff out of it--there are many ways to have fun. One of those ways is playing the market (yeah, I said it) and making tons of money off of it. Believe it or not, that is one of the ways people enjoy this game. Serious, hard-core crafters, I'm looking at you. Why would you want to take that enjoyment away from them? After all, it's just a game, right? Nobody is actually being hurt by not being able to afford that 3 million credit barrel (which will sell, by the way)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I'm not suggesting that such things should be taken away. I'm suggesting that if the only thing that drives players do to those things is the boss drops / completion rewards, then something is very wrong. And, suggesting that if the content itself were good enough, people would play it regardless of the rewards. Lets pretend there were no rewards for end game content. Simply the satisfaction of having beat it. And perhaps a fancy title. What happens when you finally beat it? Move on to another game? Complain how there's nothing to do on the forums? Level your 15th alt while desperately hoping for new flashpoints and operations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bachannal Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 so you know that it may take you MONTHS just to get a drop for yourself... and you still think its greedy for them to ask the prices that they do given that you know that it takes more effort than that not only get the drop, but get enough drops so that you actualy learn the recipe? LOGIC. they ask those prices based on the difficulty of getting both the recipe and materials to craft that recipe. you sound like one of those people who come to an artisan fair, look at handmade items and huff "I can get it cheaper at Wallmart" or the ones that think artists charging $50 for a print is just too much "because its a copy" and nevermind the hours on top of hours it took to develop their skill than yet more hours on top of hours that it took to finish that painting and finally cost of the prints to the artists themselves and lets not even talk about other overhead. I was taking artistic liberties by saying "months" it normally takes a run or two. The point is that I'll grind the OPs myself before I'll pay someone for it. So, what I SHOULD sound like to you is someone who wouldn't be a lazy f**k who takes their car to Jiffy Lube to change the oil...I'll get the oil filter and the oil and change it myself and not pay for the convenience fee. Better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sotmax Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) This IS a game, but you're forgetting a very important detail: many people play it. Some people only want to play the content, some only want to get stuff out of it--there are many ways to have fun. One of those ways is playing the market (yeah, I said it) and making tons of money off of it. Believe it or not, that is one of the ways people enjoy this game. Serious, hard-core crafters, I'm looking at you. Why would you want to take that enjoyment away from them? After all, it's just a game, right? Nobody is actually being hurt by not being able to afford that 3 million credit barrel (which will sell, by the way)? Agree on that but i m crafting items. And lets start from basics. You want to take the advantage and take money out as this is what you want from the game. Keep in mind that cost is equal to lvl so equal to money in that lvl too. Lets craft something for lvl 7(starting level minimum artifice). For taking basic craft materials you need either to collect them around story line or to pay for sending your companions to a mission.Archaeology mission will cost you 95-135 crts and crafting will cost you nothing.Depends on what you ll get from mission you ll either get fortitude crystal materials or hilt materials. Assuming you get 2 materials for a fortitude crystal. You will craft it and you re done. Replay that and in 5 missions you ll have everything you need to craft even more than 8 products including hilts. I saw fortitude crystals at 5000 crts while 800 is already too much but achievable. If you get them on gtm for 5000 you may get some cash instantly but you ll never be competitive as you don't have the patience to make money. I have 300k only only from that ,(didn't know about dailies and heroics and yes i m stupid a little on that point), while i m under 100 artifice and selling fortitude crystals and might hilts for starting levels to a price that is affortable by starting lvl players(hilt 200 crystal 500). Now if you want to take them to another level you need to reverse them to get a higher product and so on to end up in 37. My huge mistake as i said was that i change skill when i was artifice around 400 for slicing and then go back to artifice so i know about crafting. I also have treasure hunting which makes some profit. Conclusion by my side: Ppl that sell too high is because they already have crts and really don't care if someone buy it or not(take it or leave it). If you want to really make money from the game you have to be competitive and think as a player in the level that your item is. It has to be affordable for the player to be able to buy it and then many players will buy it. This is a market law inside and outside of the game. Lambo sells expensive cars for few because the company itself have money. SWTOR have the affordable cost to play to be able to attract you and be sure you ll have the money to spend to it as if it was lets say 300/month you ll not even bother to look at it. That is the main reason and is not really complaining. For sure everyone have its own type of gaming but if you think it better, that way leads new crafters to same way as when you re ready to sell an item, you first look at the minimum price of it inside gtm so you put it in that price too as it is very attractive to get more profit at once.....with one word......greed... Edited February 17, 2015 by Sotmax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeweledleah Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I was taking artistic liberties by saying "months" it normally takes a run or two. The point is that I'll grind the OPs myself before I'll pay someone for it. So, what I SHOULD sound like to you is someone who wouldn't be a lazy f**k who takes their car to Jiffy Lube to change the oil...I'll get the oil filter and the oil and change it myself and not pay for the convenience fee. Better? I do love it how you insult people who take their car to Jiffy Lube to change their oil. and it can take a lot longer then a run or two unless you are 1. very lucky with rolls and/or no one else in your group needs it and rolls on it. learning a recipe takes a lot longer than that because it takes even bigger luck to RE learn it. you are likely going to need a month + just to get enough main hands to even have a modicum of chance o learning the recipe. sometimes you get lucky and it only takes a couple. and sometimes, you RE a dozen and get no recipe. but got forbid we pay a convenience fee to someone who did all the heavy lifting, removing RNG out of equation for the people buying stuff they make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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