Win-Trading In Season 4 and Beyond

[menofhorror]

I would like to do ranked if it`s not just Arenas. I like the warzones but I hate arenas.

[Galothor]

This all sounds pretty good - if its actually true. Because I know win traders from season 3 who are riding Baron Deathmark's Walker right now. In fact none of the people I know who participated in extensive win-trading did not get his rewards the past 2 seasons. So forgive me if stay skeptical - for now.

 

But will you also be able to spot single players who lose on purpose? Common tactic during season 2 and 3 was that pubs (who can already essentially play as premades due to the lack of pubs listing for solo Q) would list with a tank while one of them would log on their imperial char also queuing as a tank. The fact that there were basically no tanks queuing ensured that they would actually meet in the arena, where the imperial tank (pub undercover) would either just stand there doing nothing or getting himself killed on purpose.

 

You should also restore the rating of those who were victims to the win trading. After all 1 win trader can hurt 3 people at once. If you lose 20 rating per lost game (courtesy of the win trader) but only win something between 1 and 5 points if you win, then those win traders have a huge negative effect on your rating and your gaming experience.

[Rattm]

They do not cheat , servers are depopulated, many players assured their rewards. Go pvp interserv and the problem is maybe resolve.

[FerreusSteelTip]

What? Cross-faction? Dude, lots of people on these forums are for that. It's like the biggest movement now that people are finally starting to accept that cross-server is a dead horse. They give it a little TLC, adopt a neutral avatar system to keep the RPers happy, and they could have a rock star for once. Hell, it'll do more to offset win-trading in the solo queue than anything else, not to mention the "trolls" (who, I suspect, are largely players queuing alts to help some guildmates or just attempting to sabotage the opposite faction).

 

Most who do PvP on a regular basis, who have been here a long while, would never want this. Because we have toons on both sides. We don't need it.

There is no point to having factions if you allow cross faction.

You'd end up with juggs and guardians on the same team. It'd be, for lack of a better word, stupid.

 

Cross server is not a dead horse. In truth, I think bioware may attempt it or a mega server down the line. Until then, it isn't an issue for me.

 

Understand that no one cares about being loyal to a faction. That isn't what ranked is about. No one is sabotaging pubs or imps.

Most of us switch sides based on who's on and what mood we're in.

That may seem to help your argument. It doesn't.

While we don't care about faction loyalty, we do care about whether or not the game has a point to it at all. Some games like guild wars can get away with not having factions. Star wars cannot. Not as long as the basis is Empire vs Republic.

 

so, sorry. Only ones I can see supporting this are those that are on low pop servers, who play of a day, who MAIN pubside, and want a larger player base.

My advice to those are. Play of a night if you can. If not, roll an Imp.

Or find a better server.

[FerreusSteelTip]

I can only assume that you may be benefiting from the one-sided nature of PvP.

 

No. I play both sides. I play pubside more as that's what side my guild currently prefers.

Even in losses, I usually am over 1mil dmg or heals. In games where I am killed seemingly every time I leave the spawn, I still do 600 to 800

Were I to play with you in warzones. You would see the difference between someone who knows what they're doing, and someone who doesn't. Then you could work at improving yourself.

 

and before you guess at my class. I play all classes. No troll. I have a lvl 60 of each class. I personally don't like the sentinel atm, after 3.0. But I could still do damn good dmg on mine.

 

It's no sin to be where you are at skill wise. Just don't lie to yourself and say it's anyone's problem or fault than your own.

Instead, improve. Watch, ask. Get better at turning, at running your rotation. Cycling cds. Then no matter what, win or loss, you will feel as if you did good.

[FerreusSteelTip]

This all sounds pretty good - if its actually true. Because I know win traders from season 3 who are riding Baron Deathmark's Walker right now. In fact none of the people I know who participated in extensive win-trading did not get his rewards the past 2 seasons. So forgive me if stay skeptical - for now.

 

But will you also be able to spot single players who lose on purpose? Common tactic during season 2 and 3 was that pubs (who can already essentially play as premades due to the lack of pubs listing for solo Q) would list with a tank while one of them would log on their imperial char also queuing as a tank. The fact that there were basically no tanks queuing ensured that they would actually meet in the arena, where the imperial tank (pub undercover) would either just stand there doing nothing or getting himself killed on purpose.

 

You should also restore the rating of those who were victims to the win trading. After all 1 win trader can hurt 3 people at once. If you lose 20 rating per lost game (courtesy of the win trader) but only win something between 1 and 5 points if you win, then those win traders have a huge negative effect on your rating and your gaming experience.

 

There is a lot wrong with your statements here. Some misunderstandings.

You are thinking more of trolls than win traders.

You're also misrepresenting the issue.

 

Changes are needed. Look to some of my prior posts in this thread. I agree punishment is also warranted. But against those that actually make ranked the pain in the *** it is. Not those we 'perceive' as being the cause.

[delta_leader_]

I think it's already nice to see some initiative from the devs side. It's a first step towards the goal. Let's see what comes out of it and than the system can be improved.

Also a hint that the devs sometimes look at the pvp forum, so maybe they are aware of the other pvp issues.

At least some hope that some things may be fixed..

Stay positive people

[MystbladeWA]

In my opinion all the biggest problems with ranked PvP stem form the low population. Elo rating isn't designed to work with such a small population. It's tough to have ranked with out the real numbers to support it.

 

This.

 

Cross Servers need to happen. Nothing they will do will 'fix' ranked other than this. They can say it cannot happen all they like, but the reality is that if it doesnt ranked pvp in this game will continue to be a steaming pile of contentious guano.

 

But, tbh, its not like they have ever really taken pvp in this game with any real seriousness. Its always been largely the poor cousin to other elements. I do not really foresee any real or meaningful changes to the current system that will bring about substantial improvements.

[jediharrsion]

You raise some very, very valid questions

Hello Eric I thank you very much for taking a big stand against win trading. I know on my server (The Ebon Hawk) that most (if not all the pvp guild) have been responsible for LOTS of Win Trading, I was even invited to join some of these team ( however I rejected them as I believe that win trading is wrong and I think it is against the rules.) I have even made a list of the guilty parties involved. Any advice you can give me on the issue will be appreciated. thank you very much eric and I look forword to you're reply

Edited February 4, 2015 by jediharrsion

[Prodiigy]

It's great you're loking into win traders but what about the trolling of solo rank ? The bastion has several individuals who's sole purpose is to mess up solo rank. We have people coming into solo rank arena with 1400 expertise . I personally got paired up with two people at 1400 and 1700 expertise last night . How is this permitted ? There needs to be a 2018 expertise requirement to queue . This is your end game PVP and this not being policed makes it even more of a joke. If I was to search for a pve FP. LFG and I don't have the proper armor rating I won't be able to get in s o why is it that you alllow solo rank to be trolled? I think the PvP community deserves the same respect and attention and action needs to be taken against people intentionally throwing games not at the end of the season but while it's happening . Anyone who gets reported should be loooked into by the bioware team.

[Neoforcer]

When you have virtually every queued Imperial on your but, while the other Rebels are off doing god knows what, I call that a serious problem for PvP matches. How can the Imperials win 85%-95% of the time in solo PvP matches?

 

My Sentinel always falls below 100,000. I am barely getting off hits.

 

BioWare needs to watch over both ranked and PUG PvP queues.

 

Either your are a troll or just clueless what ever server you are on has a in balanced faction population IE there are more IMPs with better skill then Pubs that's how they are beating you. To many good players on one faction ans since people dont want to loose all the time players join one side that have all the skill. The other side suffers from this and has nothing to do with win trading or any other issue you have complained about. The IMPs don't need nerf because there no way they can beat you that much. Learn that this has every thing to do with skill and your server population NAILED IT!

[L-RANDLE]

Problem with this, people would ignore everyone they didn't see as 'good'. And you'd have very stacked teams in solo ranked.

I'd ignore most the server and just get the good players on my team.

 

What they need is a better system in solo ranked. Add new medals. Make the ELO gain in solo ranked based off performance only.

DPS

HPS

and protection.

Base it off how long you're alive, not how long the match lasts.

Give medals based on how much dmg you take before you die.

Then how much ELO you gain is figured this way.

Loss = -x ELO against how many medals you get. Each medal = to x amount.

So lets say you get 8 medals, and each equal to 5 ELO. That's 40 ELO. Then you lose. In general, a loss will be -40 elo

Then it'd be a wash IF you got 8 medals. And up to -40 if you got 0 medals. If you end up with 14 medals in a loss, you actually get an ELO gain

 

If you win said match, there is no ELO penalty. So any medals you get will equal an ELO gain.

 

I'm sure the math wizards out there could figure the specifics. BUT if they did it this way, counting the dmg taken per second and having medals gained for how much dmg you take before you die within a certain window of time. Say, if you die within 30secs and take over 100k dmg, you get medals. (To illustrate you kited, healed yourself etc etc to stave off being focused) then yeah. Even mercs who'd get swarmed at the start has a chance at still showing skill.

 

THEN solo ranked would be JUST about performance. Wins and losses wouldn't matter AS much. You'd still get more ELO for wins most the time, but that's how it should be.

People would say that other classes would have an advantage. Like a dps guardian who could taunt getting protecting medals. Or mercenaries who get a crit on heals.

Mainly marauders and snipers would be at the disadvantage. But if they adjust protection to include cc. Stuns, slows.

An algorithm that reads the affected target's current DPS, then how long they were stunned for. Would equal to how much protection they'd get.

Slows would be across the board. A small amount of protection for each second a target is slowed.

This would encourage players to PEEL.

 

A WHOLE LOT of this^^^^^^

[AdamLKvist]

Problem with this, people would ignore everyone they didn't see as 'good'. And you'd have very stacked teams in solo ranked.

I'd ignore most the server and just get the good players on my team.

 

What they need is a better system in solo ranked. Add new medals. Make the ELO gain in solo ranked based off performance only.

DPS

HPS

and protection.

Base it off how long you're alive, not how long the match lasts.

Give medals based on how much dmg you take before you die.

Then how much ELO you gain is figured this way.

Loss = -x ELO against how many medals you get. Each medal = to x amount.

So lets say you get 8 medals, and each equal to 5 ELO. That's 40 ELO. Then you lose. In general, a loss will be -40 elo

Then it'd be a wash IF you got 8 medals. And up to -40 if you got 0 medals. If you end up with 14 medals in a loss, you actually get an ELO gain

 

If you win said match, there is no ELO penalty. So any medals you get will equal an ELO gain.

 

I'm sure the math wizards out there could figure the specifics. BUT if they did it this way, counting the dmg taken per second and having medals gained for how much dmg you take before you die within a certain window of time. Say, if you die within 30secs and take over 100k dmg, you get medals. (To illustrate you kited, healed yourself etc etc to stave off being focused) then yeah. Even mercs who'd get swarmed at the start has a chance at still showing skill.

 

THEN solo ranked would be JUST about performance. Wins and losses wouldn't matter AS much. You'd still get more ELO for wins most the time, but that's how it should be.

People would say that other classes would have an advantage. Like a dps guardian who could taunt getting protecting medals. Or mercenaries who get a crit on heals.

Mainly marauders and snipers would be at the disadvantage. But if they adjust protection to include cc. Stuns, slows.

An algorithm that reads the affected target's current DPS, then how long they were stunned for. Would equal to how much protection they'd get.

Slows would be across the board. A small amount of protection for each second a target is slowed.

This would encourage players to PEEL.

 

Not sure what kind of dreamworld players live in when presenting nonsense such as this. Its lowering the standard to the one scrubs already adhere to - namely looking at the F numbers. A well placed push that cost me 40K damage on my guardian might have saved my team from 80K damage from the enemy hatred assassin. How will you measure this? You cant.

 

Obviously getting elo per win is the only way to go. Also you dont speak for " a lot of people " when you say that people want the different factions to stay separated. The only way to have solo ranked fair and to truly combat synch queueing, game throwing and queue-at-a-certain-time is by introducing cross faction. Additionally it should not be okay by any means that republic side don't get pops for several hours a day whereas imps does because of more players queueing. Solo queue needs to be about skill, its absurd that the elo differential (because of fotm rerolls imp and generally more noobs republic side ToFN) is so incredibly huge should you compare the factions on the server.

Edited February 4, 2015 by AdamLKvist

[L-RANDLE]

Not sure what kind of dreamworld players live in when presenting nonsense such as this. Its lowering the standard to the one scrubs already adhere to - namely looking at the F numbers. A well placed push that cost me 40K damage on my guardian might have saved my team from 80K damage from the enemy hatred assassin. How will you measure this? You cant.

 

Obviously getting elo per win is the only way to go. Also you dont speak for " a lot of people " when you say that people want the different factions to stay separated. The only way to have solo ranked fair and to truly combat synch queueing, game throwing and queue-at-a-certain-time is by introducing cross faction. Additionally it should not be okay by any means 7that republic side don't get pops for several hours a day whereas imps does because of more players queueing. Solo queue needs to be about skill, its absurd that the elo differential (because of fotm rerolls imp and generally more noobs republic side ToFN) is so incredibly huge should you compare the factions on the server.

 

See this is exactly why ranked will.remain in the dark ages..

 

Adam read this closely!

 

U NEED SCRUBS IN THE QUE TO PLAY!

 

 

Yes, certain intangible events are what separates the goods from the greats, and the greats from the leets, BUT we are talked my about things from the noobs to the leets. There are no "proving grounds" that has set bars of achievement to show competency. And while not 100% accurate, yeah you can get an idea how good a player is from numbers. Yolo should be the place.

 

Using actual performance metrics is the first step in creating properly handicapped matches as well. There is no way given the current population matchmaking will ever work. Since x server is a pipe dream, handicap matches can also account for the the role imbalance as well, so tanks aren't locked out, you won't have slaughters before the match even begins, you kill trolls because you can use their high handicap as a lockout, and win traders would die as well.

 

Don't be so short sighted about this. We need a real progression based PvP environment that caters to everyone..

[SlightlySychotic]

Most who do PvP on a regular basis, who have been here a long while, would never want this. Because we have toons on both sides. We don't need it.

There is no point to having factions if you allow cross faction.

You'd end up with juggs and guardians on the same team. It'd be, for lack of a better word, stupid.

1) Lots of people support cross-faction. Read the forums; you're in the minority. I've been playing since launch, pretty much exclusively PvP, so don't even try to play that card.

 

2) You didn't quite get that bit about neutral avatars. Basically, what would happen is that you would design an alternate version of your character which would load into the match instead if you ended up joining the other faction. So if you were a Juggernaut you would join the Republic faction as a Guardian; if they want to really commit to it, you could appear as a neutral "mercenary" character. Make it optional in the general queue, mandate it in ranked to help level the playing field and help prevent abuse.

 

As for faction, in your own words:

Understand that no one cares about being loyal to a faction. That isn't what ranked is about. No one is sabotaging pubs or imps.

Most of us switch sides based on who's on and what mood we're in.

That may seem to help your argument. It doesn't.

Oh, yes it does.

Faction is cosmetic. They don't keep score or offer prizes for the winning faction; they do it on an individual level. If they did then maybe faction would serve a point. It has a point in open world PvP but that's dead and we're talking about matchmaking, aren't we? Maybe if they locked people into whatever faction they first logged into that day but people would hate that.

 

so, sorry. Only ones I can see supporting this are those that are on low pop servers, who play of a day, who MAIN pubside, and want a larger player base.

My advice to those are. Play of a night if you can. If not, roll an Imp.

Or find a better server.

 

Well, I play Imp on Shadowlands which has a pretty decent PvP community. I work at night but even in then there are regular pops in the morning. And cross-faction is still one of the best ideas I've seen bandied about on this board.

[TUXs]

There were literally videos of people /stucking to throw games in ranked arenas last season that were forwarded to customer service and no action was taken against those people.

 

Wait...you mean that's not "normal" gameplay?!

 

My confidence in Bioware's ability to 'police' what players 'intent' is, is low...like so low that I think this whole post by Eric is a ruse.

[Rilok_Singz]

meh, better than nothing i suppose...

[AdamLKvist]

See this is exactly why ranked will.remain in the dark ages..

 

Adam read this closely!

 

U NEED SCRUBS IN THE QUE TO PLAY!

 

 

Yes, certain intangible events are what separates the goods from the greats, and the greats from the leets, BUT we are talked my about things from the noobs to the leets. There are no "proving grounds" that has set bars of achievement to show competency. And while not 100% accurate, yeah you can get an idea how good a player is from numbers. Yolo should be the place.

 

Using actual performance metrics is the first step in creating properly handicapped matches as well. There is no way given the current population matchmaking will ever work. Since x server is a pipe dream, handicap matches can also account for the the role imbalance as well, so tanks aren't locked out, you won't have slaughters before the match even begins, you kill trolls because you can use their high handicap as a lockout, and win traders would die as well.

 

Don't be so short sighted about this. We need a real progression based PvP environment that caters to everyone..

 

Yes, here's an idea. Lets post a completely nonsensical post and then counter the counter-argument with "oh we're all doomed because people dont agree with our completely silly model of taking into account everything"

 

What you need for your system to work is an impartial conscious AI HUNDREDS of years ahead of the technology available today.

 

You want to measure medals? Okay, let me chase that guy and get 3K and 6K instead of guarding you further since I already got my guard medals.

 

You want to measure heal? Ok let me stand in the midst of **** and let my first bubble pop so I can apply a second one.

 

You want to measure slows? Oh please...

 

Can you see where this is going? You two are on about a system that does not take into account the willingness to perform as well as possible with as little effort as possible. A win can be achieved through plenty of ways - such as soft CC a member of the opposition or by tunneling them.

 

Who are YOU TWO (yes, two players...) to say which way should be more valuable?

 

Is population an issue? Yes, of course. But a dead PvP scene will remain a dead PvP scene. Is cross faction the answer? Its a start - having everyone on the same side of things to begin with will most definitely increase the effectiveness of the elo system. Finally, if I have to suffer from the small inconveniences of today compared to the black death proposal you guys are advocating for the choice is simple.

 

Since when are we trying to make something that could be so simple so impossibly hard?

[adamhudson]

Make it cross server que up

 

Witch 1 we all want so it gives regular pops

2 would eradicate all sync que

Or at least itll be 1 in a 100000 chance of it working

 

And this should be allready posable as many outher games have cross server pvp/pve

Allso conquests are cross server not server bound

 

This is the one sole thing i balive is what evryone wants

And will stop win tradeing

And it is more efficient

We as customers have put alot of money back into this game so do us a favour

Actually lisen to us

Thanks

I apologise for all bad grammer and spelling but you get my point

[L-RANDLE]

Because Elo doesn't work, even with cross-faction, it won't work.

 

Why?

 

Because there are zero gates to enter ranked Que, and zero performance requirements to maintain your ability to Que. Those are two REALLY easy things to fix and you kill all the trolls and the win traders at the same time, because if a handicap number is too high, them BAAM, UR DONE TIL THE NEXT SEASON/PRESEASON. Trust the "leet" will still be leet in the handicap system, then with an actual straight face you can say "L2P".

 

 

Ask why team is dead. Leet team wrecks, people feel like they lost the moment they entered, no role balance to be able to que, people stop queuing, etc,etc. All that leads back to the "learning curve" being too high given the population limitations.

 

This idea encourages growth and won't have teams and Yolo players "afraid to Que" under just about any circumstances. It would increase population and ELO might actually work then.

[AdamLKvist]

Because Elo doesn't work, even with cross-faction, it won't work.

 

Why?

 

Because there are zero gates to enter ranked Que, and zero performance requirements to maintain your ability to Que. Those are two REALLY easy things to fix and you kill all the trolls and the win traders at the same time, because if a handicap number is too high, them BAAM, UR DONE TIL THE NEXT SEASON/PRESEASON. Trust the "leet" will still be leet in the handicap system, then with an actual straight face you can say "L2P".

 

 

Ask why team is dead. Leet team wrecks, people feel like they lost the moment they entered, no role balance to be able to que, people stop queuing, etc,etc. All that leads back to the "learning curve" being too high given the population limitations.

 

This idea encourages growth and won't have teams and Yolo players "afraid to Que" under just about any circumstances. It would increase population and ELO might actually work then.

 

So instead of fixing other really simple issues you'd rather add a completely new one that can never, in this day and time (in any game) work? You're describing a participation reward system by the way, what the hell. Win or lose. PvP. Nothing else matters, I'm sorry but its that simple. If I have to run around the map 60 times to healing myself and win like that I still won. It shouldnt be how "fast you chased me" - you're being ridicolous.

[adamhudson]

True that could work but i allso think cross server que

Would be a good idea as well as i said for one the main reasons it will give regular pops

And it could help the ranked problem could not but at least it's something more then its ok we have

Candy cam on the job

witch will not work at all as thair is no actual profe of win tradeing

Unless its said in chat

[L-RANDLE]

So instead of fixing other really simple issues you'd rather add a completely new one that can never, in this day and time (in any game) work? You're describing a participation reward system by the way, what the hell. Win or lose. PvP. Nothing else matters, I'm sorry but its that simple. If I have to run around the map 60 times to healing myself and win like that I still won. It shouldnt be how "fast you chased me" - you're being ridicolous.

 

Your example is invalid because if you did do that, you wouldn't get any heal numbers. Even in the case of Sages doing sacrifice the metrics are solely based on raw numbers on the board. How "hard" is it to ratio heal output versus damage taken and put that in a bucket to determine your handicap? Protection versus enemy DPS? Damageq versus enemy heals output? Etc Etc..... All those numbers and ratios contribute to Areana effectiveness and a somewhat decent gauge to whether someone is "trying or not".

 

They already track these things. It's not as "complex" as you think it is. I rather have that in place versus nothing, which Eric, more or less said is the case.

[AdamLKvist]

Your example is invalid because if you did do that, you wouldn't get any heal numbers. Even in the case of Sages doing sacrifice the metrics are solely based on raw numbers on the board. How "hard" is it to ratio heal output versus damage taken and put that in a bucket to determine your handicap? Protection versus enemy DPS? Damageq versus enemy heals output? Etc Etc..... All those numbers and ratios contribute to Areana effectiveness and a somewhat decent gauge to whether someone is "trying or not".

 

They already track these things. It's not as "complex" as you think it is. I rather have that in place versus nothing, which Eric, more or less said is the case.

 

So you want to compare the scoreboard. You're flat out saying you want to focus solely on the scoreboard to measure success.

 

What about positioning forcing a ranged class to stay out of the fight or risk being trained, what about pushes, CC, saves, cleanses....

 

You would want them to forego all and any measure of skill this game has? With a GCD as high as this game the game is mechanically super easy - your system would ... Oh I dont even know why I'm humoring you, its obvious your idea will never bear fruit and I cant see any sane person agreeing with this nonsense.

Edited February 4, 2015 by AdamLKvist

[AlrikFassbauer]

See this is exactly why ranked will.remain in the dark ages..

 

Adam read this closely!

 

U NEED SCRUBS IN THE QUE TO PLAY!

 

Yes, the farmer needs cattle. What would be PvP without people you can pwn ?

Dead, of course. And no-one is interested in how the scrubs feel, totally getting destroyed over and over again.

They are nothing but a device to make some other players happy. Like animals kept in a barn and let out just to get decimated again. And after the ordeal they are forced back into their barn, to be forced to "participate" in other maxhes again.