azudelphi Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 (edited) This still does not address the patch notes, which you conveniently ignore, again. Again So, amazingly enough (or probably not so amazingly), you accuse others of having a hard time reading then refuse to acknowledge the existence of contrary evidence. Since apparently it was read but not understood, the definition of tandem.... Tandem: "working or occurring in conjunction with each other" (Edit for definition further down on page) - Merriam-Webster As in, Eric's post on 1/20 used in conjunction with the Patch Notes 1/21. Consider them both together as opposed to apart. Edited February 2, 2015 by azudelphi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Tandem: "having two things arranged one in front of the other" As in, Eric's post on 1/20 arranged in front of the Patch Notes 1/21... Consider them both together as opposed to apart... The patch notes are the official documentation of changes, not Eric Musco's posts, because they are always to be found in the same place. I will say this again, since it does not seem to be sinking in, that if they knew they were going to change everything, they could have and should have put it in the patch notes. And is it your contention that Eric Musco did not know about changes other than the Jawa Junk on 1/16, but learned about them sometime between 1/16 and 1/21? Possible, but if true, again, back to the patch notes. Why were the patch notes not a full and complete representation of the changes they knew were going to be made? Either we have the situation where they knew and decided to not tell us, or the patch note writer did not know about the other changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 (edited) One can assume he meant all scraps, certs, the whole 9 yards. But looking at BOTH posts on the matter he clearly pointed out jawa junk only, TWICE (he actually says "jawa scrap the second time I believe"), and he also had ample opportunity to clarify his statements after the nuke. Add to that that the ACTUAL PATCH NOTES also only mention jawa junk and you start to get a headache. So it is not out of left field to consider that he literally meant jawa junk, as that WAS the biggest complaint, generally speaking at the time. I don't recall ANYONE calling for a nerf of green or blue mats (though that is certainly possible), never mind certs. Now, I am in the "get rid of the mats all together" camp. I would have liked to have seen the cert rate returned to 2%, but even that was not my biggest issue. My biggest issue was that it was released in the first place as it was before the nerf. That was a rookie move IMO. Then to nuke it into oblivion, without specifying that was happening, to be followed by NOTHING except some off hand remarks at a cantina...well.... To me that just further demonstrated the problem. Create a problem, make it worse, ignore it. That seems to SOP more often than not, and frankly I am pretty sick of it. Edited February 2, 2015 by LordArtemis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 My biggest issue was that it was released in the first place as it was before the nerf. That was a rookie move IMO. Then to nuke it into oblivion, without specifying that was happening, to be followed by NOTHING except some off hand remarks at a cantina...well.... To me that just further demonstrated the problem. Create a problem, make it worse, ignore it. That seems to SOP more often than not, and frankly I am pretty sick of it. What they should have done was release it even worse off than its current "crippled" state, then "buff" it to its current state. Then people would have hailed them as heroes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azudelphi Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 (edited) The patch notes are the official documentation of changes, not Eric Musco's posts, because they are always to be found in the same place. I will say this again, since it does not seem to be sinking in, that if they knew they were going to change everything, they could have and should have put it in the patch notes. And is it your contention that Eric Musco did not know about changes other than the Jawa Junk on 1/16, but learned about them sometime between 1/16 and 1/21? Possible, but if true, again, back to the patch notes. Why were the patch notes not a full and complete representation of the changes they knew were going to be made? Either we have the situation where they knew and decided to not tell us, or the patch note writer did not know about the other changes. Timeline: 1/13/15 - Patch 3.0.2 goes live. CSM is included in the new Cartel Packs. 1/16/15 - Eric's original post. CSM confirmed to not be against the rules. Player feedback acknowledged. Drop rates to be investigated. 1/17/15 through 1/20/15 - Drop rates are investigated. Scraps are found to be an issue of economy balance. 1/20/15 - Eric's second post. While new drop rates are finalized, Eric informs the Community of "greatly reduced" scrap drop rates. 1/21/15 - Patch 3.0.2a goes live. CSM drop rates are adjusted. That is the series of events that I contend occurred. I contend that Eric didn't know anything was changing because they hadn't looked into the issue the community brought up yet. It was them listening to the community that led to the nerf. Edit: Please don't confused causation with blame. As for why the patch notes weren't a perfect reflection, who knows. Should the full details have been in there? Absolutely; I don't deny that. But what technical point is trying to be made by focusing so exclusively on whether the details of the change were in the Patch Notes? Does it mean the writer didn't have the final changes before they went live? Does it mean that there was a disconnect? Placeholder that wasn't adjusted? I don't know... there, that's my answer for the patch notes. But I do take the notes in conjunction with the information that was given to get a more accurate picture, and the information given was done so beforehand (not a stealth surprise the day after). I concede I don't know why the patch notes have a different claim, but I also think it doesn't make that much of a difference. But more to my original point, (and I stand by this claim), if an item with utility ever goes through the cartel packs and has a perceived value of $80, then expect a hard nerf. Edited February 2, 2015 by azudelphi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mariojediwookie Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 (edited) Read and understand this, since you clearly do not understand what Musco said. They were looking at the drop rates of Jawa junk, no mention of anything else whatsoever in his post on the issue. Most people accept that the JJ drop rate was screwed and would be changed. Their issues are that the machine was made into essentially a static decoration they will never use again, since they nerfed all the drops into oblivion, whilst apparently only looking at the JJ drop rate. A little transparency from BW would have helped somewhat. And what you fail to understand is the JJ drop rate was the most obvious. People didn't realize how easy it was to get certs as well. I mentioned it but it was lost in the mats dropping like crazy. Fact: by the end of one week I had 400 certs. There was no way in hell that was going to remain. What would be the point if the certs dropped in that amount? You may as well just do away with the certs and just have a straight credit cost from the vendor rep. But see, they don't want to do that. The certs have always been a rare drop from packs. Why would they gut another reason to buy the packs? The change had to be made. Honestly, the drop rate is closer to what you would have to pay for packs on the GTN to get a cert. Usually a cert drops about once per 5 packs for me. My cost for a crate is about 5 mill when I buy it. That's 208k per pack, roughly 1 million credits to get 1 cert. Isn't that what the current drop rate is for the slot machine right now? Edited February 2, 2015 by Mariojediwookie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Timeline: [...] 1/21/15 - Patch 3.0.2a goes live. CSM drop rates are adjusted. As for why the patch notes weren't a perfect reflection, who knows. Should the full details have been in there? Absolutely; I don't deny that. But what technical point is trying to be made by focusing so exclusively on whether the details of the change were in the Patch Notes? Because that is the issue, not the slot machine per se. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azudelphi Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Because that is the issue, not the slot machine per se. It is an issue for sure. I don't know if I would call it the issue since many different people have different reasons to be for or against the change. If you want to take issue with the fact that they didn't document the changes properly rather than the changes themselves, then sure... I'll agree they should do that better. But on the matter of the title of the thread I think that's a fairly low percentage of what people want resolved out of this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockcrown Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 majority of the community... ya right, you mean a majority of forum goers... wait no I don't think that is right either. I'd say a majority of the forums whiners would be fair though. Remember people, you paid for CARTEL COINS. You got what you paid for. If you went and spent them on a VIRTUAL ITEM (or for that matter, on a virtual item that MAY give you the desired virtual item) and later that item got nerfed due to examination of the economic numbers, that is NOT BW fault. Have they been overnerfed? probably. Does BW have to change it? No. Will they change it eventually? maybe, probably going to take awhile for the cesspit to settle though. thumbs up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 (edited) It is an issue for sure. I don't know if I would call it the issue since many different people have different reasons to be for or against the change. I have stated more than once that it was pretty clear the Jawa Junk drop rate was way too generous. When I saw the patch notes, my thought was "Well, yeah, that was too good to last." When I ran a stack of coins through it, my thought was "What the flagnog?" I was expecting the get roughly the same amount of green and blue scrap, and certs, as I had before. If the changes had been in line with the patch notes, the amount of dissatisfaction would be vastly reduced. Edited February 2, 2015 by branmakmuffin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azudelphi Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 I have stated more than once that it was pretty clear the Jawa Junk drop rate was way too generous. When I saw the patch notes, my thought was "Well, yeah, that was too good to last." When I ran a stack of coins through it, my thought was "What the flagnog?" I was expecting the get roughly the same amount of green and blue scrap, and certs, as I had before. If the changes had been in line with the patch notes, the amount of dissatisfaction would be vastly reduced. Fair enough. Sometimes it can be tricky keeping track of who has issues with what and how reasonable their issues are. While I guess for me personally the 1/20 post sufficed for the issue you encountered, it is certainly reasonable to expect the line items from the 1/20 post to be in the 1/21 patch notes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 What they should have done was release it even worse off than its current "crippled" state, then "buff" it to its current state. Then people would have hailed them as heroes. Its a good point...I have often said that had the machine been released in its current state it is likely there would no complaints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brayla_Sana Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 I am Irritated by the "screw you" attitude. Whether it's my sub, or items paid for with cartel coins, I am paying for an entertainment service. When this service is not up to my standards, it is not "QQ'ing" for me to express my dissatisfaction. I think I am the most irritated with the poor customer service in regard to the whole situation. Yes, the Jawa junk/scraps needed a nerf. Fix it. Not with a token mount - but add value back in with other items. Actually acknowledge the mistake and make it right. In lieu of this, offer everyone who has a slot machine a free cartel pack for every slot they own. Do SOMETHING to make this right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThorgrimLutgen Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 (edited) Exactly, and thus completely irrelevant. You don't like the next pack because you don't like the looks of the items? Fair. But don't go around predicting the next pack won't sell because you don't happen to like its content. Just say that you won't buy it. Why not? Any laws against being interested in how the next one sells? There really is no need to attempt to be such a smart arse in every thread you poke your nose into. I am well aware BW could blow your parents house up and you would still no doubt leap to their defence and blame your parents for upsetting Musco. Edited February 2, 2015 by ThorgrimLutgen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Its a good point...I have often said that had the machine been released in its current state it is likely there would no complaints. Nope, not from me, because I wouldn't have bought a hypercrate to get it. Which is why I called for refunds, if you are going to sell something then change it so much a week later, refunds are in order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theeko Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Nope, not from me, because I wouldn't have bought a hypercrate to get it. Which is why I called for refunds, if you are going to sell something then change it so much a week later, refunds are in order. I'm not asking for refunds for what Ive spent on the Certs/Rep items for 2 years, I'm just simply not buying packs with real $ anymore, cause that was one of the reasons why I was buying them for real $ sometimes, but now I won't be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gronkagin Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 It is my opinion that for SUBSCRIBERS, the drop rates for the slot machine should be set back to where they were. We deserve it, as we are already paying real money for this game, and are carrying the rest of you F2P untouchables. Preferreds are marginally better, but clearly Subscribers are the ruling class, and deserve better treatment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neglience Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 It is my opinion that for SUBSCRIBERS, the drop rates for the slot machine should be set back to where they were. We deserve it, as we are already paying real money for this game, and are carrying the rest of you F2P untouchables. Preferreds are marginally better, but clearly Subscribers are the ruling class, and deserve better treatment. Everyone posting on this forum is a sub. No idea what "the rest of you F2P untouchables" mean. Me as a Sub, does not want the old machine back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DorthVoder Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 First let me say that I didn't pay CC for packs to get the slot machine, but that I bought the slot machine after the nerf with credits, because I wanted to see what the fuss is about. After testing the machine I can understand the frustration of those who bought packs to get the machine, however I can't really understand the other side which says: "all is well". Why? Well, because the slot machine is effectively BROKEN. I don't know about you, but I'd expect a fairly rare, interactive item, that is only available from cartel packs (which are bought with real money), to work the way it was intended. As it stands, the slot machine in its current state is boring, not fun and basically pointless after someone has maxed out the contraband reputation (which doesn't take long). The current function of the machine is basically to buy reputation - how exciting So from a design standpoint, the machine is effectively broken and a (almost) complete failure. If I had bought packs to get an entertaining + useful interactive item only to see it nerfed into a boring, total waste of space, I would be pissed as well. Why? Because it is very easy for a competent / not lazy developer to tune the drop-list/drop rates of the machine, so that it is fun, balanced and worth using. I hope people affected by the nerf keep complaining until the machine is tweaked into something which isn't utter garbage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAMBamBam Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 ^This^ Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vradic Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 And yet the vocal minority still refuses to shut up. You people raced to buy those machines the moment you found out they were set to unfair odds. You deserve to be stuck with them. No boys, the customer isn't always right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bachannal Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I either want my 10,800 coins back; everyone who got the current pack off the CARTEL MARKET ONLY should get their coins back as a token of 'good will', or I want the machine adjusted to lower Jawa junk (Purple Scrap) as originally stated. I'm not letting this go either. If you think they're gonna refund you roughly $80 worth of CC's because you're miffed, think again. If they did that for every CC buying customer who bought the Acolyte pack, they'd lose an obscene amount of revenue - and that's bad for ALL OF US. Don't get me wrong - how they nerfed the slots was pure retard. Seriously...just basically getting rid of ALL scrap and Cert drops was obnoxious, but they're likely not reverse-nerfing them, and they sure as heckfire aren't gonna give away a whole crapload of potential revenue just to make people stop complaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Kaitou-Kid Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 And yet the vocal minority still refuses to shut up. You people raced to buy those machines the moment you found out they were set to unfair odds. You deserve to be stuck with them. No boys, the customer isn't always right. That's a pretty big assumption. Everybody who got the slots got it for the unfair odds and now they deserve to be stuck with them instead of Bioware balancing them fairly! Yeah! Except I couldn't care less about the odds for the Jawa Scraps and would prefer they be removed the machine entirely... so that... kinda ruins that assumption. Making generalizations to assume bad intentions isn't a good way to make a point. Especially when the point you're making is the slot machines shouldn't be made useful again which is in everyone's best interest. Also, when one resorts to the "vocal minority" comment to discredit those with a differing opinion, I have a hard time even taking them seriously. That's putting aside your broad generalizations and assumptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bethmora Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Its funny, before everyone was like 'oh this is a exploit or broken' so they came on and said "its working as intended" but we will look at the drop rates. NERF now people that said it was to good are saying "please put it back the way it was" or close to it. whatever, i already canceled so have at it people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vradic Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 (edited) It is my opinion that for SUBSCRIBERS, the drop rates for the slot machine should be set back to where they were. We deserve it, as we are already paying real money for this game, and are carrying the rest of you F2P untouchables. Preferreds are marginally better, but clearly Subscribers are the ruling class, and deserve better treatment. Oh my, you poor entitled little snowflake you. From one sub to another, no, we are far from the ruling class. See that little f2p guy over there, questing at lower exp rates, enjoying the game? Well he buys a hypercrate every week. He likes to toy around and pew pew dressed up as his Star Wars heroes. That sir, is the true ruling class. Those pumping a steady amount into the market. Our little fifteen a month, barely a drop in the bucket. Handle your high and mighty self. Edited February 5, 2015 by Vradic Spelling ocd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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