chosonman Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I know its been said in the past by community representatives that this game will never be pay to win but after some consideration i think they are turning the page to that direction and it doesnt look good. My main concern is the serious lack of and good craftable items for cybertech, armortech, sytheaving, and armstech. Although artifice and biotech could also be looked at the skills listed are in serious need of some attention. If you look at what is available for crafting most if not all of the good armor, weapons, mounts, color crystals, decorations, and dyes are bought for real money off of the cartel market and then sold on the gtn. This is essentially making cm buyers the defacto master crafters while the in game crafters are regulated to selling mostly augments, kits, and a handfull of other items. Now before you go on about saying how you can still make a profit from crafting i want to say THIS IS NOT ABOUT MAKING CREDITS. Its about the usefulness and fun that is involved in setting up shop and being able to craft items that are unique and interesting that is part of the game. Once upon a time crafters were an integral part of the mmo experience and though i understand some of you think the genre has evolved there are those of us who still consider it as essential ingredient of any successful mmo. My goal is simply to bring to the attention of the community and to bioware what misteps some of your players think may be happening as the search for profits shifts focus away from the players themselves and toward the cash shops. Thank you for your time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOHboy Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 oh look forum wall paper must be falling down, and is in need of more glue. CM items are fluff and fluff only. Outside of the crystals (which they have admitted as a mistake) are 100% cosmetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadin Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 The preferred cosmetics you can get from the CM do not mean it's P2W. Unless there's something on the CM that gives players an actual edge over others as far as actual game progression is concerned, I don't see the issue. Sure you can get the cooler items that look neat and are strictly vanity type items from the CM and the packs, etc. But since most of this can also be purchased on the GTN, again I don't see the issue. P2W to me means that you're paying money to get an edge on people who don't as far as buying high level gear (not shells) and swtor isn't doing that. Again, unless I'm missing something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 The preferred cosmetics you can get from the CM do not mean it's P2W. Unless there's something on the CM that gives players an actual edge over others as far as actual game progression is concerned, I don't see the issue. Sure you can get the cooler items that look neat and are strictly vanity type items from the CM and the packs, etc. But since most of this can also be purchased on the GTN, again I don't see the issue. P2W to me means that you're paying money to get an edge on people who don't as far as buying high level gear (not shells) and swtor isn't doing that. Again, unless I'm missing something. Looking fabulous is a form of winning. Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadin Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Looking fabulous is a form of winning. Right? While I'll agree it can be on an individual basis, it's not "winning" in the context in which P2W is used. P2W in the most simplistic form is paying like $50 and getting a fully geared level 60 handed to you with all 186's, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howieloader Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 While I'll agree it can be on an individual basis, it's not "winning" in the context in which P2W is used. P2W in the most simplistic form is paying like $50 and getting a fully geared level 60 handed to you with all 186's, etc. That's not even what P2W is... A more accurate definition of P2W would be like being able to buy 198 rated gear off the Cartel Market when the best you could earn by playing the game is 192... Anyone that claims anything on the Cartel Market is P2W has no idea what they're talking about and should be ignored by everyone... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reno_Tarshil Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 The only items on the market that could be considered P2W are the Crystals and the Ship Parts. But even then both don't give you a real advantage over other players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewski Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I'm missing something in your definition of "Pay To Win". Pay To Win means I have to shell out real money or I will be non-competitive in some aspect of the game. The CM is not a direct competitor to crafting anymore than, say, getting armor drops from a raid is competitive with crafting. They provide different rewards for different activities, and the only real benefits from the CM are cosmetic in nature. Do they make some kick *** looking stuff for the CM that people buy and then sell for in game credits? Sure. But that's cosmetic only, and has no impact on game play. Crafting is still viable in terms of making in game currency, just like doing dailies, or buying and reselling items from the CM on the GTN. If your concern is that the CM is making crafting for cosmetics less useful, I would agree, but I don't see that as a major issue, and definitely not Pay To Win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadin Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 That's not even what P2W is... A more accurate definition of P2W would be like being able to buy 198 rated gear off the Cartel Market when the best you could earn by playing the game is 192... Anyone that claims anything on the Cartel Market is P2W has no idea what they're talking about and should be ignored by everyone... Do you have any examples from other games that allow specifically this? I've only ever seen being able to buy something from a store as well as being able to get it in-game if you choose. Never seen items better than what the game itself offers. Not saying it hasn't happened, just looking for an example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomXChance Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Looking fabulous is a form of winning. Right? Incorrect, looking fabulous IS winning! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krisknife Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 The OP's points are very valid, his pitfall was trying to connect it to P2W hate everyone loves to have to try and gain some kind of favor with his arguments. It's not needed. The cartel market has hurt crafting since it's birth we all know this it's historical fact at this point. Will BW ever bump crafting? who knows, but probably not. WIll BW ever stop selling items that hurt crafting? NOPE, it's already a "beating a dead horse" issue, again we all know this. It is what it is, I made peace along time ago with being augmenters and grenade specialist xD. Hope for better always do, but with current MMO scene it's sad to say crafting is a dying feature Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewski Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 The only items on the market that could be considered P2W are the Crystals and the Ship Parts. But even then both don't give you a real advantage over other players. Agreed, although again, the former does impact the end game, as the advantage only lasts until level 50, and the later is only PTW if you consider the space game to be competitive. (Which most people don't, but a small community does.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZETA_SCORPII Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Gold selling sites offer P2W, not the CM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howieloader Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Do you have any examples from other games that allow specifically this? I've only ever seen being able to buy something from a store as well as being able to get it in-game if you choose. Never seen items better than what the game itself offers. Not saying it hasn't happened, just looking for an example. Star Trek Online's C-Store offers ships that are better than the ships you can acquire for free by playing the game... It was the main reason I eventually stopped playing it, the P2W was just obscenely overboard... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drockter Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Star Trek Online's C-Store offers ships that are better than the ships you can acquire for free by playing the game... It was the main reason I eventually stopped playing it, the P2W was just obscenely overboard... /agreed I had to quit that game... you didnt pay.. you lost... end of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howieloader Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 /agreed I had to quit that game... you didnt pay.. you lost... end of story. When they released the Scimitars I was just like "You've got to be ******* kidding me???" Releasing the Romulans was the end of the fun in that game... The Romulan Bird of Preys were so ridiculously overpowered it was actually funny... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vhaegrant Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 The most simplistic definition of 'Pay-2-Win' is paying cash for an item that has higher numbers on it than the best item earned through in-game play. OP sounds like an MMO crafter that is a little sore their preferred means of gouging the player base is not available to them. Sorry if that sounds harsh, I'm sure there are many altruistic crafters out there working their little crafting socks of for friends, family and guildies, but on the open market of the GTN nothing amazes me more than the unbridled greed of Best-in-slot mod crafters. As to allowing the crafters cool looking gear, unfortunately the cartel market needs the cool looking stuff to make the packs desirable. When you transition to a free play system you need some form of generating revenue and that just happens to be the cartel market. So, cartel market is always going to get first dibs on the good stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadin Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Star Trek Online's C-Store offers ships that are better than the ships you can acquire for free by playing the game... It was the main reason I eventually stopped playing it, the P2W was just obscenely overboard... I can see why you quit. Yeah something like that would immediately turn me off for sure. Appreciate the clarification on P2W, I wasn't aware of something so sinister as what you mentioned. Awful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citruzz Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 There are a lot different kinds of P2W. In most cases the limitation of something for F2P-Gamers, in some other cases the adventage to get some high end gear for real money. SWTOR is in some points P2W. Not because the cartel market, but because of the few limitations that interfere a fluid enjoyment. You need a pass for nearly everything. It is possible to get this passes through gtn for credits, but credits are also capped. So, if the gtn is a little to expensive (and that happens very often: passes for over 350k), you got some big problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vhaegrant Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 There are a lot different kinds of P2W. In most cases the limitation of something for F2P-Gamers, in some other cases the adventage to get some high end gear for real money. SWTOR is in some points P2W. Not because the cartel market, but because of the few limitations that interfere a fluid enjoyment. You need a pass for nearly everything. It is possible to get this passes through gtn for credits, but credits are also capped. So, if the gtn is a little to expensive (and that happens very often: passes for over 350k), you got some big problems. That's called 'Subscription' not pay to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelersWay Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I know its been said in the past by community representatives that this game will never be pay to win but after some consideration i think they are turning the page to that direction and it doesnt look good. My main concern is the serious lack of and good craftable items for cybertech, armortech, sytheaving, and armstech. Although artifice and biotech could also be looked at the skills listed are in serious need of some attention. If you look at what is available for crafting most if not all of the good armor, weapons, mounts, color crystals, decorations, and dyes are bought for real money off of the cartel market and then sold on the gtn. This is essentially making cm buyers the defacto master crafters while the in game crafters are regulated to selling mostly augments, kits, and a handfull of other items. Now before you go on about saying how you can still make a profit from crafting i want to say THIS IS NOT ABOUT MAKING CREDITS. Its about the usefulness and fun that is involved in setting up shop and being able to craft items that are unique and interesting that is part of the game. Once upon a time crafters were an integral part of the mmo experience and though i understand some of you think the genre has evolved there are those of us who still consider it as essential ingredient of any successful mmo. My goal is simply to bring to the attention of the community and to bioware what misteps some of your players think may be happening as the search for profits shifts focus away from the players themselves and toward the cash shops. Thank you for your time. First of all, this has nothing to do with Pay 2 Win, so your thread title is very disingenuous. Second of all, we don't need to think that the genre has evolved. It has in fact undergone several small evolutions and a big revolution over the last several years. You may find crafting fun and useful, but for many people, it's akin to watching paint dry. I for one, am very glad that crafting has generally been relegated to a non-essential minor feature in games. I should not, nor should I ever have to go to a crafter to get anything of value while progressing in a game. The "good ole days" of MMO gaming were anything but, and this was one reason why. Thank God the genre has matured and put "mini-game features" such as crafting in their rightful non-essential place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Whilst the OP thread and direction is completely wrong I can think of one instance that is arguably P2W that has more or less disrupted the entire game... Stupid f****** slot machine. People bought that up as a means to quickly accumulate materials or credits that could be used to craft/purchase items that can actually give you an edge in game. Yes you could argue the vanity stuff can be sold for profit that can allow you to buy the same but I feel in this case it was different. It was an items that wasn't pure vanity and was always going to have a huge effect on the game in the state they released it in. IMO this was getting close to P2W and I can't think of another item on the CM that has been able to be used in such a manner or was able to have an effect on the game like this. Hopefully lesson learned and they will never release anything like this again and at least if they do decide to it's not put through the CM and maybe being able to be gained via in game means ( like the original slots were ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citruzz Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) That's called 'Subscription' not pay to win. Yes, but the question of P2W starts at this point. Are you able to play the game without any limitation as F2P? Rift is a perfect example for F2P: till the last major patch, it was possible to do everything as a F2P without any limitation - unlimited pve, unlimited pvp, more than sufficient storage, reputation, commendations and multi skill sets and no limitation of currencys, gearing and all the other stuff. As a subscriber, you got a little advantage in getting valor or currencys, but they where absolutey marginal and not necessary and get some packages without granting a advantage against other players, like free cc. In SWTOR you have to pay for a subscribe to play this game in full enjoyment -> P2W. Edited January 28, 2015 by Citruzz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krisknife Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Yes, but the question of P2W starts at this point. Are you able to play the game without any limitation as F2P? Rift is a perfect example for F2P: till the last major patch, it was possible to do everything as a F2P without any limitation - unlimited pve, unlimited pvp, more than sufficient storage, reputation, commendations and multi skill sets and no limitation of currencys, gearing and all the other stuff. As a subscriber, you got a little advantage in getting valor or currencys, but they where absolutey marginal and not necessary and get some packages without granting a advantage against other players, like free cc. In SWTOR you have to pay for a subscribe to play this game in full enjoyment -> P2W. swtor started strictly as a subscription game, the good ol days *sigh*, but against much angst here in the forums (we put up a nice fight) BW came up with their Hybrid "F2P" idea and toady we have this mess. The game was always meant to be sub based, it was literally designed for it, hence our not so great version of "f2p" here. It's an "afterthought" BW had, I think it works great it's like a super demo that encourages you to subscribe, just my two credits, been around since the dawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theeko Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) It is P2w, what they should have done was just make packs BoP, not BoE. Real $ = Packs = Credits in game pay-to-win Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying. Edited January 28, 2015 by Theeko Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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