GuruVII Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 (edited) If, for business reasons, they CANNOT raise the drop rates at all, then a refund for the packs purchased before the nerf is due. That also solves the problem. The issue is they are trying to have their cake and eat it too. Except for the tiny fact that Eric stated that they are going to take a look and make changes accordingly. So if you purchased after that post informing us that they might make changes, you went in with the full knowledge that drop rates might change. If you purchased the packs before Eric's post on the matter, you were buying something that was under suspicion of being bugged. So if your acquired a slot machine in that timeframe, you went in with the knowledge that the drop rates might be a bug is going to get fixed. So in both cases we knew that the drop rates might change and as such there was no reason to assume they wouldn't be. I really see no reason why they should give a refund. The risk was known, it was your decision, if you wanted to take it. In fact the only people that could potentially demand a refund are those that acquired the slot machines after the 3.02a patch notes were released, since the patch notes were incomplete when it came to slot machines. Edited January 27, 2015 by GuruVII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Except for the tiny fact that Eric stated that they are going to take a look and make changes accordingly. So if you purchased after that post informing us that they might make changes, you went in with the full knowledge that drop rates might change. Perhaps you missed it the other 472 times it was posted... Jawa Junk rates were being looked at, so explain what happened to everything else? If you purchased the packs before Eric's post on the matter, you were buying something that was under suspicion of being bugged. So if your acquired a slot machine in that timeframe, you went in with the knowledge that the drop rates might be a bug is going to get fixed. I had no reasonable expectation that an item being sold was bugged. I simply have to assume the game is working as intended until told otherwise. So in both cases we knew that the drop rates might change No, that idea is all in your head, it is your point of view and your opinion, it is not a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuruVII Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 (edited) Jawa Junk rates were being looked at, so explain what happened to everything else? Why do you assume that? That was never specifically stated. When he talks about what they'll do he states they will take a look at IT and make changeS accordingly. You claim that IT refers to Jawa junk drop rates, He could just as easily be talking about the general situation, which is backed by the fact he is using plural when talking about changes I had no reasonable expectation that an item being sold was bugged. I simply have to assume the game is working as intended until told otherwise. Such behaviour can potentially lead to sanctions, because rules of conduct do not distinguish between knowingly and unknowingly exploiting a bug. As such the only reasonable approach (if you wish to avoid potential sanctions) is that anything "overly strange" is a bug. An item that has unannounced features that wreaks havoc on the in-game economy falls into that category. No, that idea is all in your head, it is your point of view and your opinion, it is not a fact. It was known that the drop rate might be bugged and get changed (to fix the potential bug) and after we knew it wasn't bugged that they may make changes. That makes it quite hard to argue that the changes to drop rates were unexpected. As said people that got the machines after patch notes 3.0.2a were released could argue they were deceived and I guess people that got the machines before it was know that the machines could be bugged.+ And there is also the part in the TOS where it states BW may make changes in the name of balance. Balance was shattered, it was only reasonable to expect changes that would fix it. Edited January 27, 2015 by GuruVII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drockter Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 No, that idea is all in your head, it is your point of view and your opinion, it is not a fact. You're really grasping now... we knew (whether you choose to admit it or not), that the developer reserves the right to make ANY changes to the game, including any item in the game, etc. EULA and TOS that you agreed to. Eric (in that video) stated that he should have been more clear on what could have been changed. I do not excuse the oversight... nor do I excuse the fact that we have to learn this from a users Cell Phone video. This shouldn't have been communicated in a Q&A that only a very small percentage of players attended... it should be on their OFFICIAL site. But... enough is enough. I hope there is some room for a middleground solution on the scrap/parts/junk. Others have suggested some interesting compromises (2 that come to mind are LordArtimis's Univiersal Mat... the other (and forgive me I don't know the posters name idea that drop rates could be increased if they added a cooldown to prevent farming (and keeps other sources viable). How about supporting an idea, instead of stomping your feet and throwing a tantrum. You are not going to get your money back for gambling. Thats what the packs are... a gamble... you were guranteed NOTHING. Bioware delivered to you exactly what you bought... cartel packs that had the POTENTIAL of including a interactive slot machine decoration. Additionally, You knew that any item can be changed in the game at anytime at the sole discretion of BW... and yet you dumped money into getting the slot machine. A machine that if you didnt know there was going to be a nerf nuke based on initial reports... you were the person with their head in the sand. Now... if you want to support others idea on how to improve the slot machine... Great... I support a couple of the solutinos myself. You want to continue stomping you feet... well best of luck to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Why do you assume that? That was never specifically stated. When he talks about what they'll do he states they will take a look at IT and make changeS accordingly. You claim that IT refers to Jawa junk drop rates, He could just as easily be talking about the general situation, which is backed by the fact he is using plural when talking about changes. I tend to agree with this. Although it is obvious he only mentioned Jawa Junk, I think he meant to say scraps and certificates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderVamp Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Why do you assume that? That was never specifically stated. When he talks about what they'll do he states they will take a look at IT and make changeS accordingly. You claim that IT refers to Jawa junk drop rates, He could just as easily be talking about the general situation, which is backed by the fact he is using plural when talking about changes You are mistaken. Eric did indeed specifically state Jawa Junk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azudelphi Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 (edited) You are mistaken. Eric did indeed specifically state Jawa Junk. Series of events: 1) Bioware releases CSM 2) Players realize they are getting Purple Mats at higher rate without game-breaking increase to CPU. 3) Other players raise point that Purple Mats as a reward are breaking economy. 4) Bioware responds indicating code is working, not an exploit to use machine, but that Purple Mats are to be investigated. 5) Bioware investigates the CSM and the reward rates of Purple Scrap. 6) Bioware finds Purple, Blue, and Green Scraps are having exaggerated effects on the in-game markets compared to their test market. 7) Bioware readjusts CSMs to be out-of-game reputation earning machines instead of material generators; added rare mount for fluff sake. So what if he states Jawa Junk as the only item in his post. The logical conclusion is that analyzing any one aspect of the drop table means analyzing the entirety of the drop table. Quite frankly, it's literally impossible for them to adjust the rate on Jawa Junk without changing the odds somewhere else as well... Edited January 27, 2015 by azudelphi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 (edited) He did say "jawa junks", yes. But I think he was referring to all of the scraps, and just called them "jawa junks" like it seems many players do, though that is not the right term. He may have forgotten to mention the certificate nerfs, or perhaps he was not aware, but my guess is that he is not even familiar with the machine. He simply posted information they gave to him, and my guess would be whoever gave him that information provided inaccurate data and terms. It really wouldn't surprise me. I also think the entire "it was our intent to provide them as rep builders" (paraphrased of course) was just pure bull. Note, I believe it was bull that was fed to him....I think it was provided exactly as it was intended and some moron had no idea that you could essentially print mats with this thing....though you would have thought that would have been obvious. Since this person or persons was so obviously oblivious, it is not a surprise that they would nerf the entire thing into oblivion, throw a rare mount on there and likely think "Yea....that will be fine. They will be ok with that.". It just baffles me beyond end. Edited January 27, 2015 by LordArtemis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 You are mistaken. Eric did indeed specifically state Jawa Junk. Not only that, but the patch notes also mention Jawa Junk... And had Jawa Junk had an "adjustment", which a reasonable person might define as a 30% drop, or a 50% drop, or even a 70% drop, they in fact had a 99% drop. Which isn't really an adjustment IMHO, it is a removal of the function for all intents and purposes. Then everything else really useful was ALSO nerfed to uselessness... And they have STILL NOT POSTED about this since the patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DurdensWrath Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Eric likely has nothing to do with this incident, other than being the mouthpiece. A mouthpiece nobody trusts anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reno_Tarshil Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 A mouthpiece nobody trusts anymore. I trust him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 A mouthpiece nobody trusts anymore. Well.... Perhaps. I won't deny he has likely tarnished his rep a bit. And perhaps has demonstrated some poor judgement here and there (his streaming post, bad timing). I still feel like he might be getting more heat than he deserves, but then again that is probably his job. Goes with the territory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Wicked Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I trust him. Which is why you are the Silly Wrath. A truest Wrath wouldn't trust anyone. That includes a little blue Twi'lek and her butterfly net. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I trust him. A mouthpiece many people don't trust anymore... Is that better? Or perhaps a better way to put it... People don't trust what he says because we don't trust his boss... Do I think that Eric, personally as himself, set out to trick us? No, I don't. I do not think this was Eric's decision, I don't think Eric decided to feed us bad and misleading info. I think he is feeding us what he is told to feed us. Eric needs to know that he is feeding us crap and that he is getting the flack for it because his boss isn't here. He does need to do some research and learn how absurd his statement at the event was, about the drop rates and such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reno_Tarshil Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Which is why you are the Silly Wrath. A truest Wrath wouldn't trust anyone. That includes a little blue Twi'lek and her butterfly net. Pft I do what I want. A mouthpiece many people don't trust anymore... Is that better? Or perhaps a better way to put it... People don't trust what he says because we don't trust his boss... Do I think that Eric, personally as himself, set out to trick us? No, I don't. I do not think this was Eric's decision, I don't think Eric decided to feed us bad and misleading info. I think he is feeding us what he is told to feed us. Eric needs to know that he is feeding us crap and that he is getting the flack for it because his boss isn't here. He does need to do some research and learn how absurd his statement at the event was, about the drop rates and such. Much better. The thing is for me and this is just me, this one issue isn't going to destroy all the good Eric and the new team have done for the game since taking over, I'm sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshlaBoga Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Which is why you are the Silly Wrath. A truest Wrath wouldn't trust anyone. That includes a little blue Twi'lek and her butterfly net. I have mine in Green, Yellow and Red. Is that better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reno_Tarshil Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I have mine in Green, Yellow and Red. Is that better? Mine's actually in Red, tho with mission's outfit out, the blue looks better sorta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkerus Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Going ape%#$^ over the community manager is ridiculous. Bioware dropped the ball but its hard to blame the messenger even if he shares partial blame for how this was handled. Blame Bioware's process or lack thereof, not the person directly. No wonder these people only last a couple years at each job. My brain would explode if I had to deal with this "community" every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 The thing is for me and this is just me, this one issue isn't going to destroy all the good Eric and the new team have done for the game since taking over, I'm sorry. Fair enough... I'd be much happier if he was involved in the conversation however... I can only hope that he isn't because he has been told not to be, rather than choosing to ignore it himself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Wicked Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I have mine in Green, Yellow and Red. Is that better? Noooo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Going ape%#$^ over the community manager is ridiculous. Bioware dropped the ball but its hard to blame the messenger even if he shares partial blame for how this was handled. Blame Bioware's process or lack thereof, not the person directly. No wonder these people only last a couple years at each job. My brain would explode if I had to deal with this "community" every day. Yes, but that is his job... If you don't want to take the flak, don't take the job... He is paid to be the customer facing contact, because his boss doesn't want to be (and probably doesn't have the time for it). This doesn't mean we need to be rude about it, but I'm comfortable saying that I feel he is not doing a very good job at communication and that he needs to tell his boss this situation can't continue. I assume he doesn't actually have a degree in public relations (I would hope not, given the performances I've seen). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transcendent Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 People don't trust what he says because we don't trust his boss... Do I think that Eric, personally as himself, set out to trick us? No, I don't. I do not think this was Eric's decision, I don't think Eric decided to feed us bad and misleading info. I think this is closer to the truth, and if you read between the lines on the streaming post it comes across this way. It looks more like a manager isn't prepared to accept the flak for a bad decision and is prepared to lay the blame directly on other peoples shoulders. It's the people in charge who are to blame, and they'll do anything to protect themselves from their bosses because of their sloppy decision making and poor management skills. Unfortunately that places Eric and his team in a bad situation that probably isn't deserved, but they're the frontline and the faces we see, so they're the ones who are to blame from the players perspective. Either way, it's the managers who will have to answer when subs dip, and this issue is pretty much the straw for me after 3.0. Whether I decide to re-sub in the future depends on the actions taken from this point onwards, but the Cartel Market is a big no for me now as well as in the future. It's the ones in charge who take the flak for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I think this is closer to the truth, and if you read between the lines on the streaming post it comes across this way. It looks more like a manager isn't prepared to accept the flak for a bad decision and is prepared to lay the blame directly on other peoples shoulders. It's the people in charge who are to blame, and they'll do anything to protect themselves from their bosses because of their sloppy decision making and poor management skills. Unfortunately that places Eric and his team in a bad situation that probably isn't deserved, but they're the frontline and the faces we see, so they're the ones who are to blame from the players perspective. Either way, it's the managers who will have to answer when subs dip, and this issue is pretty much the straw for me after 3.0. Whether I decide to re-sub in the future depends on the actions taken from this point onwards, but the Cartel Market is a big no for me now as well as in the future. It's the ones in charge who take the flak for that. I want to hear from the person or persons that actually designed and nerfed the CSM, and find out if they have been responsible for some of the other bad choices made recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RocketRabbit Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 No wonder these people only last a couple years at each job. My brain would explode if I had to deal with this "community" every day. Really? just how much "dealing" is he doing with the community? How many times does he post on the forums weekly? And if going to a bar and looking snide on our dime counts, I'll take the job... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frybert Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Going ape%#$^ over the community manager is ridiculous. Bioware dropped the ball but its hard to blame the messenger even if he shares partial blame for how this was handled. Blame Bioware's process or lack thereof, not the person directly. No wonder these people only last a couple years at each job. My brain would explode if I had to deal with this "community" every day. In my youth I worked for Walt Disney World, what Eric has to deal with is a cake walk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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