Max_Killjoy Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 if there are too many midlithe crystals? "oh noes, I will have to wait a few days if I want to sell these! or i could craft something my self with them!" not a problem of galactic importance I'm still curious where this idea of "too many" comes from... and how 2, or 4, or even 8 times as many grade 11 purples in circulation could have some sort of devastating effect on the game outside of the Materials Barons losing their cash cow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transcendent Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 The biggest mistake was releasing it with a drop for mats. That was a HUGE blunder IMO, only compounded by nerfing it out of existence. It was a lazy way to provide more mats, which they have already done with packs and conquest, instead of going the smart route and simply improve gathering and crew missions. Two parts to this that really stand out. Instead of having a CSM that paid out mats / certs what BioWare could have done to "fix" this machine (and any future iterations) would have been to have items related to the reputation they were dropping, that were given as Bind on Pickup, and unlockable via collections for CC. That would have been a far better implementation. So instead of tons of everything, once in a while you get a pet from the pack, or a chestpiece from a set in the pack etc etc. Something to entice a player to return to the slot machine and get an entire set so they can unlock it via collections. Right there is how it could have been implemented to far greater benefit to both player and to BioWare. Second part is, if they felt the need to improve availability of materials, BioWare could have simply improved crew gathering skills. I've said it in another thread, and I'll repeat it here, they don't need to adjust RNG or anything like that. Just improve the time taken to complete the mission on a companion with maxed out affection to something sensible like 30 mins tops for the missions unlocked with guaranteed returns, and 5-10 mins for the standard missions. Instead we've ended up with this debacle and BioWare are caught in an awkward situation with their "pants down" so to speak. They're embarrassed and rightly so. A little thought and some communication would go a long way, or they could choose to ignore it and have it come back to bite them in the arse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuriDogshin Posted January 25, 2015 Author Share Posted January 25, 2015 I also like his signature but probably for a different reason. I must be more important to you than you are to me, because I don't care at all whether you stay on or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuriDogshin Posted January 25, 2015 Author Share Posted January 25, 2015 No, it was your mistake for trusting BW enough to give them your money. Yes, that was my mistake. But in my defense, I have learned from it. And therefore, the sig: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 if there are too many midlithe crystals? ":oh noes, I will have to wait a few days if I want to sell these! or i could craft something my self with them!" not a problem of galactic importance Shenanigans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuriDogshin Posted January 26, 2015 Author Share Posted January 26, 2015 (edited) Shenanigans. When it comes to trolls, it's usually appropriate to forebear from posting the obvious response. Thank you. (bump ) Edited January 26, 2015 by BuriDogshin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSeventhJedi Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 If Eric is allowed to make a statement about this at an official event that will obviously be recorded, I wonder why there hasn't been a similar response transcribed in yellow here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuriDogshin Posted January 26, 2015 Author Share Posted January 26, 2015 If Eric is allowed to make a statement about this at an official event that will obviously be recorded, I wonder why there hasn't been a similar response transcribed in yellow here? Which one do you think BioWare can more easily claim is just Musco speaking for himself, and not BioWare? "Plausible disavowability," Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanhedgehog Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 If Eric is allowed to make a statement about this at an official event that will obviously be recorded, I wonder why there hasn't been a similar response transcribed in yellow here? Its tough having a job where you have to post 3 whole emails a week!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 (edited) Its tough having a job where you have to post 3 whole emails a week!!!!! Yes... it must be... The fact that there aren't regular replies to all sorts of questions here is part of the problem. There is no sense of feedback and give and take with Bioware. They don't talk with us, ask for feedback, provide feedback, and answer questions on an ongoing basis. They should be in here posting on a regular basis, I thought that might have been that new girl's job, but it seems not to have been the case. --- Not even a: "we hear you, we're talking about it, we make no promises on changes, but it is a topic of conversation internally". Even that would be nice to hear. As it stands, it looks like they are just ignoring the players and hoping they go away. Never, ever hope your customer base just "goes away". What kind of business does that? Edited January 26, 2015 by Heat-Wave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 My guess would be he has decided to enjoy his life and avoid the fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drockter Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Yes... it must be... The fact that there aren't regular replies to all sorts of questions here is part of the problem. There is no sense of feedback and give and take with Bioware. They don't talk with us, ask for feedback, provide feedback, and answer questions on an ongoing basis. They should be in here posting on a regular basis, I thought that might have been that new girl's job, but it seems not to have been the case. --- Not even a: "we hear you, we're talking about it, we make no promises on changes, but it is a topic of conversation internally". Even that would be nice to hear. As it stands, it looks like they are just ignoring the players and hoping they go away. Never, ever hope your customer base just "goes away". What kind of business does that? I took what he said completely differently... they have access to the metrics (including EVERYONE here that posted new & old drop rates (their spins are included in the analysis that BW completed)... They did look at it... made the changes, and looked at it again... and now feel that they are dropping as they wanted... throughout that process... there would have been discussions. You can certainly continue to advocate for a re-look... I personally like the one persons suggestion to set a number of spins debuff (x spins a day)., and increase the drops rates. I do think, however, that those advocating for any change need to drop the insults, and rage... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnkiduNineEight Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I took what he said completely differently... they have access to the metrics (including EVERYONE here that posted new & old drop rates (their spins are included in the analysis that BW completed)... They did look at it... made the changes, and looked at it again... and now feel that they are dropping as they wanted... throughout that process... there would have been discussions. You can certainly continue to advocate for a re-look... I personally like the one persons suggestion to set a number of spins debuff (x spins a day)., and increase the drops rates. I do think, however, that those advocating for any change need to drop the insults, and rage... My concern would be that they made a chance, and pushed it out, not considering the feedback loop of the players and so their change was significantly more draconian and harsh then the players felt fair and the net result of their change was a return to the 'normal' situation of the marketplace which was the root cause of the problems to begin with as they had already stated they felt that they wanted to increase the accessibility of Grade 11 materials to players. So players are providing them feedback on their initial implementation of fix for slot version 1.1. Which is equally bad as no slots at all (prior to Acolyte Pack, slot 1.0) so there has been a 'net 0' move in a problem BioWare themselves admitted to/defined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 They did look at it... made the changes, and looked at it again... and now feel that they are dropping as they wanted... throughout that process... there would have been discussions. You can certainly continue to advocate for a re-look... You may well be right... But of course that whole thing misses the point... "they are dropping as THEY wanted"... Yea, good thing Bioware employees are funding the game and are the customer, right? At the end of the day, what THEY want is exactly the problem with most game companies, they fail to understand that what they want to do means very little, what the customer want is what really counts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neglience Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 (edited) Well i don't want the old slot machine back. I also don't want a "middle ground" on this issue. I want a nerfed machine that does not effect actual gameplay. What "the community wants" is no fixed point, so its up to BW to decide. Edited January 26, 2015 by Neglience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Well i don't want the old slot machine back. I also don't want a "middle ground" on this issue. I want a nerfed machine that does not effect actual gameplay. What "the community wants" is no fixed point, so its up to BW to decide. I had to go back nearly 20 pages to find a page with no slot machine posts... I can't recall that happening on any topic in this game... have you considered the possibility that a larger number of customers are unhappy than you think? It has now been a week since the nerf, many people said this would be forgotten about in 2 days. Well that hasn't happened... when another week goes by and the first 5 pages of the forum are still slot machine threads, will you consider that you might be in the minority? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draqsko Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I had to go back nearly 20 pages to find a page with no slot machine posts... I can't recall that happening on any topic in this game... have you considered the possibility that a larger number of customers are unhappy than you think? It has now been a week since the nerf, many people said this would be forgotten about in 2 days. Well that hasn't happened... when another week goes by and the first 5 pages of the forum are still slot machine threads, will you consider that you might be in the minority? Doubt that will ever happen, or even if he acknowledges he's in the minority, he'll state that his opinion is the correct one. Not in so few words, but that's the jist of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neglience Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 (edited) I had to go back nearly 20 pages to find a page with no slot machine posts... I can't recall that happening on any topic in this game... have you considered the possibility that a larger number of customers are unhappy than you think? It has now been a week since the nerf, many people said this would be forgotten about in 2 days. Well that hasn't happened... when another week goes by and the first 5 pages of the forum are still slot machine threads, will you consider that you might be in the minority? Did i ever say my opinion reflects the majority of swtor players ? The majority of swtor players does not give a s*** about this forum, they are just playing the game. Swtor has something between 200-300k sub players, the numbers of whiners starting threads here over and over are somewhat around 20-40. My point was, there is no "this is the community view" on this. Edited January 26, 2015 by Neglience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnAskham Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 (edited) You may well be right... But of course that whole thing misses the point... "they are dropping as THEY wanted"... Yea, good thing Bioware employees are funding the game and are the customer, right? At the end of the day, what THEY want is exactly the problem with most game companies, they fail to understand that what they want to do means very little, what the customer want is what really counts. Who is this 'customer' that knows what should or should not be done with the game? You? Me? Someone else? I get some players seem to want an 'I WIN' button - e.g. slots they can click for free mats, operations that are trivial that drop Ultimate commendations, perfectly itemized gear on the commendation vendors, with the class they play OP in all aspects of the game. But I would not want to play that game, nor would many people I know. Should they take feedback and make an effort to acknowledge and address player issues and concerns? Yes. Have they been doing an acceptable level of communicating with and listening to the player base? No. Should they design the game around player forum posts of the childish rant type prevalent these days? Hell no. Edited January 26, 2015 by DawnAskham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 I get some players seem to want an 'I WIN' button - e.g. slots they can click for free mats, operations that are trivial that drop Ultimate commendations, perfectly itemized gear on the commendation vendors, with the class they play OP in all aspects of the game. The irony is that I *DON'T* want an I Win button... The GSI Droid in the solo flashpoints is a good example of an I Win button, I'm not sure you can die there if you tried. That being said, there IS a middle ground... Example: Lvl 55 ops should drop elites, both 8 and 16 man, for SM and HM. Nim should drop ultimates, those remain hard even at lvl 60. Lvl 55 Ops need to be added back to GF giving elites for completing it, perhaps 16 of them. Let people queue for either 8 or 16 man in GF. Lvl 60 ops should drop ultimates in both 8 and 16 man. Tokens should drop in HM only. GF should award 16 ultimates. Let people queue for either 8 or 16 man, or both at the same time. Lvl 60 HM FP GF should be 16 elites, 8 ultimates, it isn't worth doing for just elites, but 16 ultimates would probably be too many. Lvl 55 HM FP GF should be basics, it currently drops elites, but these are no longer hard at lvl 60. Lvl 60 Taticals should be split from the lvl 55 Taticals, so you can queue for what you need for the weekly. 10 basics and 5 elites for GF Lvl 55 taticals should be its own group and have its own weekly, awards 15 basics. Lvl 50 HM needs to come back, these are fun and people will do them even without XP. Make GF queue up 2 random people to do them together at lvl 60, with companions. This would add a fun new aspect to the game, 2 man GF lvl 50 HM FP. GF awards 10 basics. I'd also like to see lvl 50 ops in GF, awarding basics... but offer a new option... 4 people can do a lvl 50 op and let them bring companions. This would also add a fun new aspect to the game and give people content to play that is easier to access. --- In short, I don't think ultimates should be everywhere and I don't want an I Win button, but I do want a nicely scaled balance of content and rewards. A good example of the rushed nature of things is the adding back of lvl 55 taticals to GF. Great, but to get the basic comms GF award, you have to queue for all of them, but only the lvl 56-60 taticals count towards the weekly. That is sloppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vhaegrant Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Two parts to this that really stand out. Instead of having a CSM that paid out mats / certs what BioWare could have done to "fix" this machine (and any future iterations) would have been to have items related to the reputation they were dropping, that were given as Bind on Pickup, and unlockable via collections for CC. That would have been a far better implementation. So instead of tons of everything, once in a while you get a pet from the pack, or a chestpiece from a set in the pack etc etc. Something to entice a player to return to the slot machine and get an entire set so they can unlock it via collections. Right there is how it could have been implemented to far greater benefit to both player and to BioWare. It would certainly incentivise the uptake of cartel based slot machines, I also fear it would drive down demand on the initial release of the packs. Then again two years is a long time to wait. The armour pieces available on the cartel rep vendors is a little inconsistent, the first vendor just had masks, the others seem to have a couple of sets picked at random. Second part is, if they felt the need to improve availability of materials, BioWare could have simply improved crew gathering skills. I've said it in another thread, and I'll repeat it here, they don't need to adjust RNG or anything like that. Just improve the time taken to complete the mission on a companion with maxed out affection to something sensible like 30 mins tops for the missions unlocked with guaranteed returns, and 5-10 mins for the standard missions. Which is only an advantage if you are a player with a considerable amount of disposable time on their hands. Like many of the systems in SWTOR the crew missions are a good idea that could do with a little polish to get them up to grade. Instead we've ended up with this debacle and BioWare are caught in an awkward situation with their "pants down" so to speak. They're embarrassed and rightly so. A little thought and some communication would go a long way, or they could choose to ignore it and have it come back to bite them in the arse. The lack of communication and obvious inability to foresee the issues before implementation are the real damaging factors of this particular debacle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drockter Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 At the end of the day, what THEY want is exactly the problem with most game companies, they fail to understand that what they want to do means very little, what the customer want is what really counts. Yes and no... there is a business to run after all. Frankly, customers are the worst person to give you advice on doing business. They'll want it cheaper then you can afford to make it... If you listened to all your customers demands... you'd soon be out of business. I want a Mercedes for 15K ... funny how they aren't taking my suggestion and making it happen. Before we get into the thats real life, this is a game... except... the product is a game, true... but there is a real world business developing the game. They aren't "playing a game"... this is real world dollars and cents at play. While, I think there was room for a middleground solution on the Jawa Junk/Scrap/Parts... but the Cartel Certificates.. not so much... that impacted their bottom line, or could have. According to Eric... they were dropping as expected... my thought is that they didnt take into account that people would be wiling to sit at the machine 8+ hours straight.... I know I sure as heck couldn't. But thats exactly what happened. So when the realities of the numbers came in... they realized they were wrong... dead wrong... about the drop rates. So it required a nerf... and a big one. They made a huge mistake with these machines.. then followed with further mistakes not communicating (frankly I found it stupid that I had to learn that the rates are where they want them now from someone cellphone video). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neoforcer Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 (edited) Wow, he just completely ignored the severe reduction in the Certificate drop rate as well as the other Scavenger Scraps and the increased loss ratio. Does he really think that we're not going to notice those? Does he think that if they ignore it, we won't still be mad about it? Eric could care less about the players it why we have they mess he has made over every post he made this month. Including the Transcript from the OP he has caused so much turmoil with the community because of half truths on answering question over steams and on forums. He should quite while he is ahead. Before he kills even more sub Edited January 27, 2015 by Neoforcer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 According to Eric... they were dropping as expected... my thought is that they didnt take into account that people would be wiling to sit at the machine 8+ hours straight.... I know I sure as heck couldn't. But thats exactly what happened. So when the realities of the numbers came in... they realized they were wrong... dead wrong... about the drop rates. So it required a nerf... and a big one. They made a huge mistake with these machines.. then followed with further mistakes not communicating (frankly I found it stupid that I had to learn that the rates are where they want them now from someone cellphone video). And all that is fine... If, for business reasons, they CANNOT raise the drop rates at all, then a refund for the packs purchased before the nerf is due. That also solves the problem. The issue is they are trying to have their cake and eat it too. --- A few years ago, I purchased a new 2011 Ford Explorer with the MyTouch system in it. It was a mess, three times I had to take it back to the dealer to be factory reset, it locked up completely. I probably could have pushed a lemon buyback in Texas over that, but I'm actually not that petty in real life. Why? Because Ford actually sent me a letter and apologized. They extended my warranty to 5 years, unlimited miles. They offered me 5 years free nav map data updates, and promised to keep updating the system until it worked. Guess what? It took 18 months, but they finally rewrote their software and fixed the problem. Worked like a champ after they and they kept their promise to keep sending out nav map updates. A letter of apology, a plan of action to fix it, and follow though is all that is required. It cost Ford millions of dollars to do that for all those customers, but in return, I've bought another Ford knowing they stand behind their product. Could I have sued for a Lemon Law buyback? Yes, actually, I could have (laws vary state-to-state), but I liked the truck otherwise and Ford's response said they took my concerns seriously. So I keep doing business with them. It isn't rocket science... Lawsuits generally happen when companies refuse to do the right thing. The lady who sued McDonalds over the hot coffee? She tried to just get her medical bills paid, she wasn't even asking for that much. When McDonalds told her to take a hike, she decided to sue them for all she could. While reduced on appeal, she still got over half a million dollars. Do. The. Right. Thing. Life is easier that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Eric likely has nothing to do with this incident, other than being the mouthpiece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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