The Contraband Slot Machine

[LordArtemis]

Dude, this thread is 175 pages long.

 

And I'm pretty sure you've been involved in most of it.

 

That's not predatory, that's ACCURATE.

 

Your generalizing to argue a point IMO.

 

This issue is specific. So no...it's not accurate at all.

[eartharioch]

My post history in this very thread stands in evidence.

 

Not true. I said that the mats belonged in crew missions and scavenging from the very beginning. I was surprised they went this route, but accepted it as it was. It was better than nothing.

I'm not about to reread this entire thread. If you want to point me to what you want me to consider to be your "original" position, please link the specific post(s). That said, your initial reaction to the machine (and Eric's statement that using it wasn't an Exploit) was "a little" more positive than "surprised, but accepting". Although, if you're saying that your *original* position was that "it was better than nothing", I'd like to know if you still think that.

 

I said it over and over again....raise the coin price if you are going to keep mats on the machine, and raise the rate of drops from missions and gathering. i was very clear about that.

Yes, you have been clear about that. Unfortunately, you don't leave it at that, and you suggest specific numbers without "showing your work", which is considered a crime in the math world, and quite frankly displays the same sort of haphazard, ad hoc approach that the devs seem to take.

 

I changed my tune when the mats brought the machine down....I expected an adjustment. I didn't expect a nuke. But that still did not change the fact that I have VERY CLEARLY indicated I am against avoiding improvements to crafting.

The fact that you didn't expect a nuke (and Eric's milquetoast statement that they would "look at the drop rates") pretty much confirms what I just said. This is a game. It is not purporting to simulate any real phenomenon. Everything about the crafting system is arbitrary. There is no such thing as a drop rate being "too low", "too high", or even "just right". There are two ways of determining drop rates: make a set of equations that express what you want the crafting system to [be able to] accomplish and the monte carlo method -- pick some numbers, run them through some simulations, and see if you like the results. I'm not sure how the original devs designed the system, but the current devs seem to be going with the latter option and substituting "patch to live" for "running simulations".

 

And yes, I still very clearly support an increase in the cert drop rate. That has never changed.

I would also like an increase in the cert drop rate, because "more certs for me" > "less certs for me", but I don't think that that is a enough of a reason to justify advocating it, especially when "more certs for you" < "less certs for you" for me. What I want is a slot machine that is "fun" to use, and there are a lot of ways the devs could do that don't involve raising the cert drop rate. You seem to want certs (and mats, if that doesn't interfere with getting certs) for free (or at least for less than the CM/GTN price).

 

YOU AND I argued over protectionism and the AMOUNT of mats available. I felt the mat level had to increase, just like Bioware indicated. You seemed to feel otherwise.

I don't think you understand/appreciate my actual position. I don't care if the mat level increases, decreases, or stays the same. The mat level is arbitrary. The rate of mat acquisition is arbitrary. The original devs may or may not have had a target (or expected value), but regardless of whether or not the devs back calculated the crafting system parameters to meet such a target or if they just picked numbers out of a hat, the system as designed generated 0 mats unless players do things (such as run missions) to acquire them.

 

So regardless of what the devs intentions or expectations were, the actual number of mats available for use was/is entirely dependent upon players' choices of actions. The original system system (nodes and missions for Grade 1-6 mats) has been in place for three years; the devs added Grade 9 nodes and missions with RotHC, and Grade 11 nodes and missions with SoR. Players have spent a lot of time and credits learning and using the system. I don't think that any ONE person (me, you, Max, or whoever) can say that any particular level of availability is good, bad, or just right. We can say whether or not we like it, whether or not it enhances or detracts from our play experience, and all sorts of other subjective things, but there is no *objective* standard for how many mats are "just right".

 

When you (and people like you) suggest "quality of life" improvements that would have a noticeable impact on the system, and I object, it's not because I'm objecting to the change to the system, but because you are (imo) misrepresenting the nature of the suggested change.

 

When people say mission returns are too low, or crit chances are too low, or that the RE rate is too low, and I object, it's not because I thing they are too high, or just right, or because a higher supply will cause prices to decline, it's because they are arbitrary parameters and there is no math supporting the qualitative analysis. Without an objective frame of reference, "too low" has no meaning.

 

So don't just say "mission returns are too low" because "reasons". Give the reasons. How many chars do you think players "should" have? How many companions should each player have? How many companions should each player be able to send out at a time? What should the average companion affection be? How many missions per unit time should a player run? How many purples should a character get per unit time? How long should it take to get a character into all self-crafted 186s? 186 Comm gear? If you can't answer all of those questions (and more), how can you claim that the a given mat rate is too high, too low, or just right? How would you know?

[Banthabreeder]

Can we just find a middle ground for the slot machine? When it came out, it rewarded too much. After the nerf, it basically doesn't reward at all. Just somewhere in the middle so everyone can be equally happy/upset with the results as opposed to the way it is now where most everyone is furious with it and only a select few are happy with the rewards.

[eartharioch]

I hope it also takes hyperbole like this into account as well eartharioch. This was WAY out of line.

 

Note...that is not to say I haven't done my fair share of whining and gnashing teeth over the past week or so. I certainly have not demonstrated a reasonable amount of self control, not even close.

 

But new view? Jilted bride? Seems at bit predatory, don't you think?

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "predatory", but I think "jilted bride" is pretty much spot on.

 

Before the nerf, you praised the devs for their courage in reversing previous decisions made by [unnamed] devs with whose decisions you didn't agree. You talked about all the good things they had done for the game. You told me that you thought the devs were taking the game in a [brave] new direction, and that the wind wasn't blowing my way. The word that best describes my impression of your attitude is "lovestruck".

 

And then came the nerf. Instead of this being the first of possibly more bad things, it became the straw that broke your camel's back. Before the nerf you were interpreting everything in the devs' favor, but suddenly, after the nerf, you were able to recite a litany of failures. And you wanted blood. You wanted to know which specific devs were involved. You wanted BW to name and shame the people responsible.

 

So, yes, I see the situation as the devs proposing to you (releasing the machine / saying that using it wasn't an exploit) and then not showing showing up for the wedding (nerfing it like they did) and leaving you standing alone at the altar in front of all of your friends and family. The immediate loathing you displayed, sniping at the devs in every thread you could find, screams " a woman scorned".

 

Giving how hard people are acting like BW screwed them, I should probably clarify that you're acting like the the devs proposed eight months before they stood you up, not just a week. You got your scarlet letter, and you want them to get theirs.

Edited February 9, 2015 by eartharioch

[LordArtemis]

So you clearly admit your "new view" comment was not accurate. Fair enough. You talked your way out of your original post, so I can accept that. I have to question why you would even make that accusations, only to then disprove it with your lengthy post. I imagine it was likely "off the cuff", which is poor form IMO. It is odd behavior certainly. Very odd.

 

Your questions have been answered multiple times, so there is no need to rehash that bit. As far as your "jilted bride" comment, you can view my lack of tolerance any way you wish. I have made more than a few petulant comments I admit, and though I think it would have better to avoid breaking forum rules and attacking me directly, I can't deny many of my comments have been rather poor.

 

As far as the rest, I will let our post histories in this thread speak for themselves.

 

I have to warn you, however...I did not report you because I do not feel it is necessary at this time, but the very next time you resort to ad hominem attacks you will be reported. I will not tolerate personal attacks.

 

Insult the comment, not the person. It is the most basic rule of this forum. And I think you know better...

 

So keep that in mind.

Edited February 9, 2015 by LordArtemis

[light_senshi]

Can we just find a middle ground for the slot machine? When it came out, it rewarded too much. After the nerf, it basically doesn't reward at all. Just somewhere in the middle so everyone can be equally happy/upset with the results as opposed to the way it is now where most everyone is furious with it and only a select few are happy with the rewards.

 

Unfortunately, those in favor of moderation are being shouted over by the ones who want (as far as I can tell) either restoration of the original rate and/or their money back.

[LordArtemis]

Unfortunately, those in favor of moderation are being shouted over by the ones who want (as far as I can tell) either restoration of the original rate and/or their money back.

 

I see few if any folks asking for that.

[Nickious]

Unfortunately, those in favor of moderation are being shouted over by the ones who want (as far as I can tell) either restoration of the original rate and/or their money back.

 

I think even the people who were upset about the nerf knew that the drop rate was absurd to begin with.

 

As for refunds, what do you refund? A person may have intention of getting that specific item but is was no guarantee you were going to get that item. Best I would imagine would be to refund the individual pack it came from.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Nickious

[Kalarie]

Still waiting on a refund, just sayin.

[Choloe]

Still waiting on a refund, just sayin.

 

I'm going to Boston's Cantina Tour and I plan on bringing this, and several other items up....

[Choloe]

I think even the people who were upset about the nerf knew that the drop rate was absurd to begin with.

 

As for refunds, what do you refund? A person may have intention of getting that specific item but is was no guarantee you were going to get that item. Best I would imagine would be to refund the individual pack it came from.

 

The best "good will" suggestion would be to REFUND all CARTEL PURCHASES of the latest pack from the time the machine came out, until the time they nerfed it.

 

It's a GOOD WILL refund - not a "here is the refund for the actual purchase because it was a lottery"

 

What the "you paid for cartel coins, you got them" camp does not see is the BUSINESS END of this. I spend a LOT of MY MONEY on Cartel Coins - Am I complaining about that? NO! But I did spend MORE on this latest pack because of the machine; and they changed it - COMPLETE BAIT AND SWITCH.

 

So, what will it "cost" BioWare to "refund" the cartel coins??? Nothing. But it will gain a TON of GOOD WILL and I will be inclined to actually drop my money again on Cartel Coins in the future - because right now? They are getting my subscription, and that's it.

[Kalarie]

I think even the people who were upset about the nerf knew that the drop rate was absurd to begin with.

 

As for refunds, what do you refund? A person may have intention of getting that specific item but is was no guarantee you were going to get that item. Best I would imagine would be to refund the individual pack it came from.

 

Just to be clear, I paid credits for mine, so the refund would just be the credits, even to a discounted value to account for some retained fair value of the machine. For people that bought packs trying to get one, i'm less clear. However, if you were a normal retailer i could see you refunding the cost of any pack that dropped the machine if the person asked for it, but that would have to include returning the other drops that came with it. I have no idea how complicated that is on BW's part. I thought I would see that they could do it with the ravenger's exploit punishment, but so far everyone I know that participated and really abused it, never got touched, with the exception of one guy that ran it every week on 22 toons, and he's just plain missing so idk if he actually got banned or not (he hasn't been in mumble). Everyone else kept everything with no bans. So i'm doubting BW would be able to track the specific pack items that were dropped and be able to give real refunds without making some large asumptions or leaps of faith.

 

In my case though it's just a simple refund of the credits I spent. That is easily tracked. I put in a ticket, and they confirmed the transaction and suggested that I post on the forums to ask for the refund.

[eartharioch]

So you clearly admit your "new view" comment was not accurate. Fair enough. You talked your way out of your original post, so I can accept that. I have to question why you would even make that accusations, only to then disprove it with your lengthy post. I imagine it was likely "off the cuff", which is poor form IMO. It is odd behavior certainly. Very odd.

 

I didn't say it wasn't accurate, I said I wasn't going to look up specific posts and cite them. As you said, anybody who's interested can read the thread.

 

My recollection of the conversation is that you were initially happy with the machine and the mats, and that only after the nerf did you start saying that the machine shouldn't have ever had mats. At one point, you said you'd like the devs to keep the purples as is, lower the blues, and increase the greens. That's hardly an "anti-mat" stance.

 

Your questions have been answered multiple times, so there is no need to rehash that bit. As far as your "jilted bride" comment, you can view my lack of tolerance any way you wish. I have made more than a few petulant comments I admit, and though I think it would have better to avoid breaking forum rules and attacking me directly, I can't deny many of my comments have been rather poor.

 

As far as the rest, I will let our post histories in this thread speak for themselves.

 

I have to warn you, however...I did not report you because I do not feel it is necessary at this time, but the very next time you resort to ad hominem attacks you will be reported. I will not tolerate personal attacks.

 

Insult the comment, not the person. It is the most basic rule of this forum. And I think you know better...

 

So keep that in mind.

 

So you'll admit that you've been petulant and in poor form lately, but you're threatening to report me if I point it out? That's pretty...petulant.

[TUXs]

I didn't say it wasn't accurate, I said I wasn't going to look up specific posts and cite them. As you said, anybody who's interested can read the thread.

 

My recollection of the conversation is that you were initially happy with the machine and the mats, and that only after the nerf did you start saying that the machine shouldn't have ever had mats. At one point, you said you'd like the devs to keep the purples as is, lower the blues, and increase the greens. That's hardly an "anti-mat" stance.

 

So you'll admit that you've been petulant and in poor form lately, but you're threatening to report me if I point it out? That's pretty...petulant.

Are you trying to start a fight or just enjoy stalking others?! Let it go. Even if he changed his mind, does it matter? State your opinion and move on...or do you feel the need to just attack someone? Why do you care if his stance changed? I've changed mine before...it's part of trying to be open minded.

 

Your reply just sounds like nit picking or hunting for a fight...take it to PMs, please.

[Krixten]

Just to be clear. I don't want a refund for my slot machines. I want then to stay. I just want fair returns on the payouts. Increase the jawa vendors prices and put the drop rate back. Charge 1 scrap per level and call it a day! Rare mats should increase in price anyway. The exchange rate is absurd, NOT the original slot machine payouts! Let's face it... being allowed to choose your mat is already beneficial enough. If they do what I suggested, BOTH companion harvesting AND slots would have a purpose! Your companions get the bulk of your material for crafting, the slots would provide an alternative way to get the material your missing.

 

Once that's put into place, they could make OTHER slot machines with the same scrap payouts, BUT have different rep to earn.

 

Any thoughts on my proposal?

[Zoom_VI]

They are nerfing Shoulder cannon, I demand a refund on all the sub time I spent leveling my Vangaurd! I also demand a refund on all the sub time I spent leveling all the class that where changed with 3.0!

[Krixten]

One more thing to add....

 

Increase the reputation vendors prooduct lines to include ALL of the items that were in the packs associated with the reputation. Those packs served their purpose. That was to make money. Quit bringing the old packs back, make the product expensive and priced according to rarity on the reputation vendors and that's your best credit sink ever!

You can't get better credit pits than that!

 

I would LOVE to have my Casino have four or five different reputations slot machines. Different colors and different noises! It would TOTALLY support role playing AND it would be one HELL of a way to promote cartel storyline! Competition amongst the cartel factions... what an awesome concept!

[Banthabreeder]

Asking for a refund is wasting your breath. It will never happen. Never in a million years.

 

What could happen is if we keep talking to them, via the forums and at Cantina events, is they increase the percentages of drop rates since they nerfed them too severely. I am with the others that did feel the original drop rate was a bit too high and had a feeling it would be adjusted, but Bioware overcompensated by nerfing them way to low. And to add insult to injury, increase the cost to play them. Just make it a middle of the ground drop rate and this whole mess will be finally fixed and we can look forward to future slot machines down the road that drop different reputation awards.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Banthabreeder

[MeNaCe-NZ]

The best "good will" suggestion would be to REFUND all CARTEL PURCHASES of the latest pack from the time the machine came out, until the time they nerfed it.

 

It's a GOOD WILL refund - not a "here is the refund for the actual purchase because it was a lottery"

 

What the "you paid for cartel coins, you got them" camp does not see is the BUSINESS END of this. I spend a LOT of MY MONEY on Cartel Coins - Am I complaining about that? NO! But I did spend MORE on this latest pack because of the machine; and they changed it - COMPLETE BAIT AND SWITCH.

 

So, what will it "cost" BioWare to "refund" the cartel coins??? Nothing. But it will gain a TON of GOOD WILL and I will be inclined to actually drop my money again on Cartel Coins in the future - because right now? They are getting my subscription, and that's it.

 

What many of the "complaining camp" seem to also forget is the majority of them made far more than their initial investment from said slot machine.

 

If you got a stack of purple JJ that's about 2 million in the current market for my server, 3-4 million at the old rates if you were on board early and sold in time before they stopped dropping.

 

1 Stack was barely even an hours work plus you would make cartel certs in the process at an average value of say 50K each ( a purple stack of JJ would yield roughly 10 certs in the process of gaining them, probably more, I'm being light here ) so there is an easy 2.5 million for 1 hours work. New Hypercrates sell for on average 3 million on my server so a couple of hours work and you've made any money back you could have otherwise got from selling a hypercrate plus a small profit.

 

Now 1 thing I've noted with most people pushing the bait and switch angle is they are basically implying the reason they bought the slot machine was for the cert and purple JJ drop rates. Thus one could say that when they got theirm achine they went straight to work on it and at LEAST got a couple of stacks of purples and certs knowing damn well the JJ had been mentioned the drop rate would be looked at and also that the market was dropping so they would want to get in sooner rather than later to sell at the best price.

 

IMO the only people who should get any form of refund would be those who got the slot machine on the last day ( if not half day ) before it was nerfed. Failing that ... would anyone asking for a refund also volunteer to then lose any credits or purple JJ or cartel certs made from said slot machine. Sounds fair yes?

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Are you trying to start a fight or just enjoy stalking others?! Let it go. Even if he changed his mind, does it matter? State your opinion and move on...or do you feel the need to just attack someone? Why do you care if his stance changed? I've changed mine before...it's part of trying to be open minded.

 

Your reply just sounds like nit picking or hunting for a fight...take it to PMs, please.

 

Yet here you are adding in your 2 cents into someone else's argument/fight/insults etc. ... your devil may care attitude would be better presented if you applied it to yourself me thinks. Why do you care if he cares or not? It's got nothing at all to do with you in the regard.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Just to be clear. I don't want a refund for my slot machines. I want then to stay. I just want fair returns on the payouts. Increase the jawa vendors prices and put the drop rate back. Charge 1 scrap per level and call it a day! Rare mats should increase in price anyway. The exchange rate is absurd, NOT the original slot machine payouts! Let's face it... being allowed to choose your mat is already beneficial enough. If they do what I suggested, BOTH companion harvesting AND slots would have a purpose! Your companions get the bulk of your material for crafting, the slots would provide an alternative way to get the material your missing.

 

Once that's put into place, they could make OTHER slot machines with the same scrap payouts, BUT have different rep to earn.

 

Any thoughts on my proposal?

 

11 scrap for a grade 11 mat then? Sounds good to me lol.

 

Though the cartel cert rate shouldn't go any higher than 1 in 500 imo due to it's previous rarity.

 

IMO if we follow the refund crowd's logic I should have grounds to ask for all refunds on all packs I've bought due to the Cartel Cert being added to this slot machine as it devalued an item I sought after from packs ZOMG Bait and Switch!

[MeNaCe-NZ]

One more thing to add....

 

Increase the reputation vendors prooduct lines to include ALL of the items that were in the packs associated with the reputation. Those packs served their purpose. That was to make money. Quit bringing the old packs back, make the product expensive and priced according to rarity on the reputation vendors and that's your best credit sink ever!

You can't get better credit pits than that!

 

I would LOVE to have my Casino have four or five different reputations slot machines. Different colors and different noises! It would TOTALLY support role playing AND it would be one HELL of a way to promote cartel storyline! Competition amongst the cartel factions... what an awesome concept!

 

I would probably quit if they did that as it would ruin the lottery aspect of my most fun part of the game which is pack opening using all the credits I make.

 

I think that is working fine though I wouldn't be opposed to them adding a few, maybe 3, items from each pack to the slot machine itself in the form of rare, super rare, ultra rare and have the spin drop rate set accordingly.

[akdonkey]

How about adding all past present and as they come out future reputations to the Slot machine.

[Krixten]

I don't think you get what I'm talking about...

 

Im not talking about ALL cartel packs. I'm talking about the first four to eight of the oldest cartel packs. The majority of the items that drop out of those packs are beyond worth popping packs over. Let those packs rest in peace! If you're ANYTHING like me, and pop cartel packs like "bubble wrap" you'd know, the market is over saturated with TONS of the unfavorable items! Seriously, like anyone wants to pop a hypercrate and get stuck with 75% covert armor pieces and fancy reveler hats! LOL! Oooo! Where do I sign up for two more vaults full of starfighter cosmetics, just to obtain two sets of mando hunter armor to sell? Lmao!

 

With a gradual retirement of the older cartel packs and the additional creation and introduction to newer ones, your "bubble wrap popping" days would be far from over! If anything, business would boom!

[LordArtemis]

Response to eartharioch in the spoiler tag below.

 

 

I didn't say it wasn't accurate, I said I wasn't going to look up specific posts and cite them. As you said, anybody who's interested can read the thread.

 

My recollection of the conversation is that you were initially happy with the machine and the mats, and that only after the nerf did you start saying that the machine shouldn't have ever had mats. At one point, you said you'd like the devs to keep the purples as is, lower the blues, and increase the greens. That's hardly an "anti-mat" stance.

 

Your recollection is wrong and quite convenient, especially considering your "I'm not trying to berate you" stance (paraphrasing of course).

 

You claimed it was a new stance. The proof is that it has been my stance from the VERY FIRST POST I PLACED IN THE THREAD. I was clearly happy with the rep and certs, and also made it clear I didn't care about the presence of the mats at all.

 

So you have chosen to backpedal. Again, I will let our posts speak for themselves. I have clearly copped to my posting behavior. You have not.

 

My belief is that you are very much aware of my stance and simply chose to make yet another ad hominem attack. One that I did not solicit I might add. I think your intent is crystal clear.

 

So you'll admit that you've been petulant and in poor form lately, but you're threatening to report me if I point it out? That's pretty...petulant.

 

My posts have. Im not sure why you continue to struggle with the concept that insults directed at a person is against the rules...it is prudent to warn you, I could have just reported you.

 

It's very simple. Follow the forum rules like everyone else. Otherwise there may be consequences.

 

Hopefully this is the last word on the matter so we can return to the subject at hand.

 

 

Back to business.....

 

It is my belief that this issue will remain as it is from here forward. I get the feeling Bioware is paralyzed on this issue and others. Perhaps they do not know what to do, perhaps they do not care. But either way I do not expect to see more machines, nor do I expect they will adjust this one.

 

And I do not think this is the last stumble of this kind they will make. I think it is likely this will become more and more common as we move forward.

Edited February 10, 2015 by LordArtemis