EnkiduNineEight Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I championed a change to the slots, and I believe the change was a bit much. Not going to refer to the mined odds, but I do believe the Walker Mount's could probably bear to be five times more common than the Kingpin Rancor mount. The machine would still be an effective money sink. For materials return, I think the adjustment was just as bad the other direction as it was bad the generous direction to begin with. I believe that the machine was far too generous and now its too stingy. What should have been done is some very simple math so that the expected rate of return for materials (barring RNG silliness) was slightly worse than and slightly more expensive then the rate of return for materials from crafting missions. Maybe a bit more than 'slightly' worse then but the change is a serious over correction. My expectation at this point is that this initial correction will later be 'recorrected' quietly and that this initial change is to help bring supplies etc back into line as there are a number of people sitting on large amounts of Jawa Junk etc and so the markets could not normalize if the slots continued to add more to the market at any 'reasonable' rate. Once supply diminishes/time passes they'll likely be made more generous again, or so is my optimistic expectation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schmusey Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) Sorry, but I really do love to be cynical sometimes... Classic bait and switch here guys c'mon. Release a machine with monumental impact on the economy and potential to be a credit printing machine to the cartel market. Sell untold amounts of hypercrates because of it. Turn the machine into a worthless credit sink (with a tasty rare mount as an inconceivably rare 1:100,000 drop to whet the appetites of addicts) only a week later after the hype wears off and the credit generation has been destroyed by supply glut. Smile and laugh at us as they count their money. End of story. Edited January 21, 2015 by Schmusey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caliel Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Guess the people who whined about it, are the people who are making millions. "god forbid" they arent making millions upon millions each week.... And, most of all, spending a loooooooot of money in cartel coins to buy a loooooooot of pack. Now they can keep buy them safely, market is regulate. Pay to win, you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 While I'm sympathetic to those who claim a bait-and-switch happened given the extreme changes in Jawa Junk drops, I feel like the end result is actually a good vision of what the Slot Machine should be: primarily a way to get the associated Reputation, with an unlikely 'jackpot' odds of getting a Cartel Cert and a super-duper-rare chance of getting the special mount (similar to the Rancor odds during the Summer Event). This is a good version of the item, but BW made a mistake in ever releasing a version that had people treating it as a crafting-focused machine or an easy way of getting Cartel Certs. Now people, justifiably, feel like they're getting jerked around. This. Had it been released like this I would probably not have an issue...I simply would have never purchased it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron_harmeling Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 And idiots who cry about everyrhibg and still pay for it...bravo! As soon as those idiots stop paying for that kind of crap (Cartel coins, subscription), any idea who will finance your playing fun ? Certainly NOT the people playing the GTN with mats and crafts. They can buy all they want of GTN and cut the Cartel Coins altogether. Just saying... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I championed a change to the slots, and I believe the change was a bit much. Not going to refer to the mined odds, but I do believe the Walker Mount's could probably bear to be five times more common than the Kingpin Rancor mount. The machine would still be an effective money sink. For materials return, I think the adjustment was just as bad the other direction as it was bad the generous direction to begin with. I believe that the machine was far too generous and now its too stingy. What should have been done is some very simple math so that the expected rate of return for materials (barring RNG silliness) was slightly worse than and slightly more expensive then the rate of return for materials from crafting missions. Maybe a bit more than 'slightly' worse then but the change is a serious over correction. My expectation at this point is that this initial correction will later be 'recorrected' quietly and that this initial change is to help bring supplies etc back into line as there are a number of people sitting on large amounts of Jawa Junk etc and so the markets could not normalize if the slots continued to add more to the market at any 'reasonable' rate. Once supply diminishes/time passes they'll likely be made more generous again, or so is my optimistic expectation. I wish I could be as optimistic as you are. I believe they screwed up when they released it and screwed up when they fixed it...and I expect it to remain screwed up for the near future. I DO NOT expect them to be smart enough to realize the folly of this change like they did with abilities and removing training cost. Had they released this thing without ANY scrap drops it would have probably never been adjusted in the first place IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DolphineQ Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 300 chips spent. 1 jawa junk won. 0 certificates. 5 purple rep items, 119 green rep items, 22 blue rep items. 0 mounts. 10 spins: 4 fails, 1 chip, 1 green rep item, 3 fails, 1 chip. BW, you messed this nerf up BIGHTIME. Back to the drawing board and sort out a PROPER fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron_harmeling Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Have fun? Fun is over. This machine is not ever a toy, works completely different and now really is a money (and time) sink and waste. Not even a nerfed machine. It is another thing. You did not adjust it, you broke it. Well done. A move from white to black, no middle point. You could have put a cooldown on the machine if you wanted to regulate the use, but what you have done is like giving a toy to your child, and when you see he overuses it then you crash it to the ground and give it back to the child. Marvelous decission. They have a total history of going over the top on this kind of things. As to tdmaha : I think we should scroll back a couple of pages and check if you werenn't one of thse crying because drop rates were too high .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Diatribe.... Keep it up Tdmaha. You know how this ends.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Sorry, but I really do love to be cynical sometimes... Classic bait and switch here guys c'mon. Release a machine with monumental impact on the economy and potential to be a credit printing machine to the cartel market. Sell untold amounts of hypercrates because of it. Turn the machine into a worthless credit sink (with a tasty rare mount as an inconceivably rare 1:100,000 drop to whet the appetites of addicts) only a week later after the hype wears off and the credit generation has been destroyed by supply glut. Smile and laugh at us as they count their money. End of story. The change is so excessive that it gives the appearance of either deliberate manipulation or utter ineptitude on the part of Bioware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icycola Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) I'm basically very disappointed at spending the credits on an item that was really fun and helped everyone (except the whiny selfish) since sharing was encouraged. To hear that it's working as intended, and that an adjustment would be made to jawa scraps didn't prepare me for the fact that it would literally become a worthless item to be moved back into inventory because I don't want to be reminded of how stupid I was to trust Bioware's word. As to the explanation of wanting crew missions to be done - really? My companions with 15% crit and max affection fail now at a rate that makes it very wasteful to do crew missions. I would have preferred that the machine never came out at all. Edited January 21, 2015 by Icycola Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quraswren Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 This. Had it been released like this I would probably not have an issue...I simply would have never purchased it. But thats the real slick business move part of this isn't it? Put out something everyone wants. Let word spread. Many buy packs to get one that might never have bought a packs and many spent millions in credits to get one. Then after a weeks run, nerf it and nerf it after telling us it was working as intended. No bugs. Then, bioware turns that real money gamers spent and fake credits gamers spent for a said product into worthless crap not one week later. Thats either some really incompetent game design and development or some real shady used car salesman tactics. (or both) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 The change is so excessive that it gives the appearance of either deliberate manipulation or utter ineptitude on the part of Bioware. I really tend to think it is the latter in this case. I mean, really....foolish enough to release it as they did and then foolish enough to nerf it into oblivion? It is either some kind of prank or it seems no one is at the wheel at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron_harmeling Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Oh it's a lot of the same ones don't kid yourself little buddy. Well you should have been here sticking up for the slots, oh maybe you just come to the forums when you want to cry...err I mean voice your opinion. Same as you seem to come here for needless trolling. Go send your comp on crew skill missions or sit in a corner laugh about your victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mowermanx Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 The change is so excessive that it gives the appearance of either deliberate manipulation or utter ineptitude on the part of Bioware. Exactly, because they couldnt find middle ground, its very hard for the average punter to find it when it comes to thinking about the people in charge and these changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdmaha Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Keep it up Tdmaha. You know how this ends.... Yep it ends with you spamming how horrible this is and how you are going to quit. Then because of all the crying they adjust it again to make those crying for the second time about slot machines happy and you oh I guess I'll stay so I can cry about the next hot topic... This is the ways it's gone everyime....and how it will go this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron_harmeling Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Yep it ends with you spamming how horrible this is and how you are going to quit. Then because of all the crying they adjust it again to make those crying for the second time about slot machines happy and you oh I guess I'll stay so I can cry about the next hot topic... This is the ways it's gone everyime....and how it will go this time. Would be better if you argumented or respected people's opinion .... Which obviously is not an option. If your argument stays "crybabies" go somewhere else to troll. Or give us something a bit more valid to work with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Divona Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) I'm sorry i posted odds before But to give you the idea in words. You had about same chance in nightlife event to win rancor mount with buff than to win jawa junk now Forget the mount it has less chance to win than blowing up nightlife event slot machine. Edited January 21, 2015 by Divona Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mowermanx Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 But thats the real slick business move part of this isn't it? Put out something everyone wants. Let word spread. Many buy packs to get one that might never have bought a packs and many spent millions in credits to get one. Then after a weeks run, nerf it and nerf it after telling us it was working as intended. No bugs. Then, bioware turns that real money gamers spent and fake credits gamers spent for a said product into worthless crap not one week later. Thats either some really incompetent game design and development or some real shady used car salesman tactics. (or both) Thats what is troubling me, as there was a massive surge in packs being bought after word spread about the slot machines, then Eric's post saying "intended", which caused even more of an uptake, then this? Honestly, it doesn't matter what the case may be that brought this decision down, its a very bad look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pauly Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Let's talk slots Bioware: The average return, or "Theoretical" on a slot machine in the United States is .90 (it is required by law to have this rate of return posted near the Main Cage of every casino in many states the US; some states and Native American casinos excepted). It is a simple Operator Menu function or DIP switch function for the casino to set this rate and is audited by gaming boards/commissions. So, if you put in $1.00, over the long run, you should expect to get on average $0.90 back, including all large jackpots awarded (we're not talking the odds on one spin of a machine on max credits and max lines to win a jackpot, we're talking average rate of return, and games have payout tables pre-programmed to deliver these rates of returns, unlike the slot machine in the game here, which is going on straight odds). These machines are not giving a .90 rate of return. Granted my Stronghold on Coruscant is not the average casino in the United States, but casinos in the United States have devoted billions of dollars and decades of research to find out how to keep a person playing a slot machine and this rate of return is based on many tested variables, financially, psychologically, and otherwise, but most importantly to make the casino money. The key here though is that the person must want to play and then be coaxed into continuing to play and this .89-.90 theoretical rate of return for the player is proven to be optimal (around there, lesser denomination machines can go to .98 while larger denomination machines may go as low as .82, mostly depending on the local competition and laws; a .87 or lower machine would be referred to as "loose" and it is how casinos can prove they have the "loosest slots in town", but only one bank of machines at a casino have to have this better rate of return for them to advertise it, and it is probably a single or pair bank of $100 denomination machine(s)). By law casinos must prove using revenue summaries and audits that they are complying with this advertised/declared/posted theoretical or average rate of return. In conclusion, since this slot machine is not set up to make Bioware money on a spin-by-spin basis (the cartel market packs themselves are Bioware's "casino"), they nerfed this machine to the point that no one would want to play it or continue to play it. Hence mine and many others' presumption that they overreacted without thinking of the other variables that go into playing slots. The machine is useless now, both for the player and operator, but Bioware doesn't know this because they aren't making money off the spins, only on the purchase to get the machine from the cartel pack. The argument that it is gambling/a slot machine and you are meant to lose money is nonsense; it is a business. Any casino that stocked their floor with these would be bankrupt in a week. Having a machine that always loses makes the casino little to no money because no one will play it, and the patron may leave, losing even more money. The cartel market is supposed to be fun, this is not fun or entertainment anymore, nor, because of their error (which was not an error at first according to them) will it ever be fun, because we've already tasted the forbidden fruit of having the loosest slots ever anywhere. They may have ruined us for all slot machines in this game again...if you aren't a slot jockey with an addictive personality (but even then you need to feed them enough "wins" to compel them to stay, otherwise they'll get up and possibly go to another casino, and we definitely don't want them to do that, no, no, they're our bread and butta.). BTW If you didn't realize by now, I work in the gaming industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdmaha Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Would be better if you argumented or respected people's opinion .... Which obviously is not an option. If your argument stays "crybabies" go somewhere else to troll. Or give us something a bit more valid to work with These are beyond opinions. You have the same people "complaining" for a week about the slots. They make a change and these same people are now "complaining " about the changes that were forced because of their original "complaining". How can you not see how ridiculous that is? It's also the same people who "complaine" about every other hot topic...skill tree, training cost, ect ect ect it's never ending. I'm just here to point out how ridiculous it is...don't like it? Too bad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kandoral Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 500 coins used, what did i get? 0 jawa junks 0 certificate, 0 mounts, but 50 reputation items.... Out of 500 coins (with the coins i win back it would be at least 700 spins) 50 useless items? are you kidding me BW? If you look at it you only win when you hit the Jackpot and in this case the jackpot is with 99% useless reputation items. That is not what a jackpot is meant to be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insidious Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I can see why BioWare would want to change the drop rate but the recent change has made the slot machine almost worthless. Many of these posts mention "bait and switch" and I can't think of a more apt description of the way that BioWare have handled this. An item is released that is coveted by many players and so Cartel Pack sales rise (increasing revenue for EA) ! BioWare then tell us that the item is working as intended but they need to review the drop rate. The item is then savagely nerfed to the ground, upsetting the people who paid good money for the original item. Not many people would have wanted the item with these nerfed odds and I think future Cartel Market sales (and goodwill towards BioWare) will likely suffer as a result. Shame on you, BioWare .. you have knowingly exploited your customer base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdmaha Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 It's an incompetence level from a game developer that is just astounding if what BW says is true and it's wasn't working as planned just 3 or 4 days ago. To back track so quickly is very off putting. OR BW pulled a business move at the expense of BW looking incompetent just to push the sale of more packs from the cartel market. Either way - I hope this spreads around in a very negative way. I hope the lag, the bugs, the exploits BW so far has done nothing about and now this slot machine garbage thing puts such a black eye on BW that EA is forced to bacl away from SWTOR till it no longer exists. At least then we might get another shot at a grade "A" MMO based on Star Wars and not this joke. This just screams of poor management and incompetence in design and development and screw the gamer as long as the company hits a money stream in gamer wallets. I've simply got to find something else to play because I cannot support this kind of poor design. This joke? This joke you pay for? So what does it make you if you pay for something you think is a joke? Also might want to refrain from calling the Devs incompetent it's bound to get you in trouble. But I believe the word incompetent would fit perfectly for someone who pays for something they think is a joke...just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kandoral Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 bioware wants you to be max rep so you are encouraged to buy more packs later for the certs. You will have access to the vender but no certs to buy what you want. This was all done to encourage you to buy more packs in the future as well as buy more packs thinking the slot machine was working as intended but then nerfed a week later after word spread about it. It's a used car salesman tactic thats basically a bait and switch after they have your money and done in a way to encourage you to keep spending real cash to get certs from other packs in the future. It's really shady of bioware to be honest. i got my reputation to the top alrdy, so these things are useless.... i playerd it because of the chance for the mount and the jawa junks (can they even be won Oo?) good for me that i played it enough last week and got more than 200 certificates, will never need to buy packs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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