The Contraband Slot Machine

[Transcendent]

Wow... you are desperate for Transcendent's and my attention aren't you? Well, at least your antics will keep this thread on the first page for as long as the forum lets me continue to post.

 

Well, that isn't going to work, I gave up trying to have a sensible conversation on anything with Menace. Pretty obvious for anyone to see, as to why that is the case.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Well, that isn't going to work, I gave up trying to have a sensible conversation on anything with Menace. Pretty obvious for anyone to see, as to why that is the case.

 

Yeah how dare I make logical counter points to your fallacious statements! Could the case be quite simply because ... you can't?

[TX_Angel]

Wow, shocked to see this old dead horse dug back up.

 

Even I, have given up on this topic long ago, and I was quite vocal about it.

 

The damage was done. It will never be changed. Live with the consequences or quit the game. Nuff said.

 

I wonder how much the "fussing" with the CM post 4.0 has been brought about by things like the slot machine?

 

I for one, have not bought any CC since the nerf of the slot machine, I suspect I'm not alone in that. Some of the choices made in the past year have not quite been enough to cause me to unsub, but they have prevented me from spending any additional money on the game.

 

In 2013-4, I spent several thousand dollars buying CC. I would often buy more than $100 in a month worth of CC.

 

Today? Nothing. Since the CSM? Nothing.

 

Perhaps CM sales got bad enough in the summer of last year that the initial changes in 4.0 for the CM happened, but since those didn't "fix" the problem, they have been tinkering with it every since. But they don't seem to understand that the current changes aren't the issue and they'll never fix it without addressing the past.

 

But they seem intent to ignore the past.

[Xo-Lara]

Wow, shocked to see this old dead horse dug back up.

 

Even I, have given up on this topic long ago, and I was quite vocal about it.

 

The damage was done. It will never be changed. Live with the consequences or quit the game. Nuff said.

 

Well, the thing is that the resolute refusal to change things was like a year ago. Lately, the story has been different. All sorts of things have been changing rather suddenly. So, now's as good a time as any to remind them of this issue.

 

TX_Angel's experience isn't unique. The slot machine was the tipping point for many with regards to spending money on the game. It's not that everyone flat out decided to stop spending at that point, but rather that they've been doing less and less since then. That cumulative effect is significant.

 

Undoing things which hurt player's trust would go a long way to getting people back on board for paying money.

 

Well, that isn't going to work, I gave up trying to have a sensible conversation on anything with Menace. Pretty obvious for anyone to see, as to why that is the case.

 

Yeah, I see. Even my patience for and amusement with dancing around his attempts to start up a pointless debate has waned.

[LordArtemis]

Yeah, I see. Even my patience for and amusement with dancing around his attempts to start up a pointless debate has waned.

 

He was the first person I had to ignore in 4 years on this forum. A shame really. Especially considering every once in a while he had a point that wasn't simply an echo of someone else's opinion.

 

At any rate, even if it is temporary I think the move would be to offer all of the certs and rep items on the CSM. That would, at least in the short term give it some utility above it's current state.

Edited February 4, 2016 by LordArtemis

[Xo-Lara]

He was the first person I had to ignore in 4 years on this forum. A shame really. Especially considering every once in a while he had a point that wasn't simply an echo of someone else's opinion.

 

At any rate, even if it is temporary I think the move would be to offer all of the certs and rep items on the CSM. That would, at least in the short term give it some utility above it's current state.

 

 

It would be a decent temporary fix. I had forgotten how many items require cartel market certificates until I went to the Cartel Bazaar on fleet the other day. However, I still don't see why they can't sell all the old packs periodically like they've decided to do with the BSG packs.

[Banthabreeder]

I for one, have not bought any CC since the nerf of the slot machine, I suspect I'm not alone in that.

 

Now that you mention it, I too have not bought any more cartel coins since that debacle. I may have paid an extra hundred or two for cartel coins back then but now I just buy everything I want off the GTN. I keep getting free cartel coins every month but not enough to buy a Hypercrate with so I just look for them on the GTN for reasonable prices. I probably will never buy cartel coins again from this game.

[Transcendent]

I wonder how much the "fussing" with the CM post 4.0 has been brought about by things like the slot machine?

 

I for one, have not bought any CC since the nerf of the slot machine, I suspect I'm not alone in that. Some of the choices made in the past year have not quite been enough to cause me to unsub, but they have prevented me from spending any additional money on the game.

 

In 2013-4, I spent several thousand dollars buying CC. I would often buy more than $100 in a month worth of CC.

 

Today? Nothing. Since the CSM? Nothing.

 

Perhaps CM sales got bad enough in the summer of last year that the initial changes in 4.0 for the CM happened, but since those didn't "fix" the problem, they have been tinkering with it every since. But they don't seem to understand that the current changes aren't the issue and they'll never fix it without addressing the past.

 

But they seem intent to ignore the past.

 

That's an interesting correlation to make, I wonder how accurate it is over the whole community. I couldn't say either way, however I know, like you, that I haven't bought extra CC since the whole CSM issue. Since the launch of F2P I've bought 154800 Cartel Coins, since the CSM, none.

[Xo-Lara]

The problem is that your trust in what you are spending your money on is shook up. The CSM was one of those big shake up points. It felt like real money was being taken and only loss was being given in return. It also felt like you needed to be more wary before spending.

 

Right now, not being able to feel more carefree about expenses is probably what is doing more harm than any specific issue.

[EnkiduNineEight]

Wow, shocked to see this old dead horse dug back up.

 

Even I, have given up on this topic long ago, and I was quite vocal about it.

 

The damage was done. It will never be changed. Live with the consequences or quit the game. Nuff said.

 

Why this horse got brought back up is some bumping and that bumping was done because a 'new'player over in the Suggestions Forums found a CSM and was really surprised by the rates of return and how terrible the CSM felt.

 

I thought that was interesting and worth noting, that a player who arrives to the game significantly after the whole thing and didn't even know about the history of the item would make the very same comments about the 'new' version of the CSM that players were making back after the nerf.

 

So, a couple threads and some posting and this comes up again. To give new players (and old devs) visibility again to the issue and while it was 'dormant' for awhile it is still a significant indicator to the devs of how their behavior has shaped their financial fortunes with this game and why a goodly number of players are no longer players, and former whales are no longer buying cartel coins and spending them.

 

Why some players (like myself) that were a whale and were happily spending the equivalent of 25 subs monthly are just waiting out the end of their sub, and really haven't played the game for months.

[Transcendent]

The problem is that your trust in what you are spending your money on is shook up. The CSM was one of those big shake up points. It felt like real money was being taken and only loss was being given in return. It also felt like you needed to be more wary before spending.

 

Right now, not being able to feel more carefree about expenses is probably what is doing more harm than any specific issue.

 

I'm not so sure it's a "trust" issue, I don't inherently "trust" any company to do anything aside from line their own pockets. As long as they provide a good service in return, I don't take issue with anything else. That's my issue on this, the lack of service.

 

At the very least they could have gone "Okay, this is affecting the in-game economy quite drastically. We have to do something about that aspect, so we'll reduce the drop rates on the Jawa Scraps only.".

 

That was the premise of the changes, however everything else got obliterated in the changes, and they seem to have thought that adding a mount was a good compromise, it wasn't. Would I have taken issue with them removing the Jawa Scraps? Not if they had altered the CSM to drop all of the reputation tokens, and slightly reduced the Cartel Certificate drop rate. Not only did they reduce the percentage drop rate of the Certificates by a significant amount, they also increased the odds of losing overall by a large percentage change. The changes are still very visible for anyone who wants to look on Reddit for the changes.

 

The end result isn't a loss of trust in BioWare, the end result is a customer who isn't prepared to support changes like these being made in the manner in which it was dealt with. That not only goes for this product, that goes for the whole company and all of the franchises under it. So future Mass Effect titles? Forget it. Future DA titles? Forget it. It wasn't quite enough to kill off my recurring subscription, 4.0 has managed that, as to if I provide them with financial support at a later date? That remains open depending purely on their actions.

 

Plenty of other developers deserving of my financial support, so it really isn't any loss to me. Just them.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Now that you mention it, I too have not bought any more cartel coins since that debacle. I may have paid an extra hundred or two for cartel coins back then but now I just buy everything I want off the GTN. I keep getting free cartel coins every month but not enough to buy a Hypercrate with so I just look for them on the GTN for reasonable prices. I probably will never buy cartel coins again from this game.

 

I'm the same though not for the CSM reason, just because I have so many credits that I can do this ( and make more credits by doing so ).

In saying that if everyone did this we wouldn't be able to buy packs thus someone has to pay up the cash.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Why this horse got brought back up is some bumping and that bumping was done because a 'new'player over in the Suggestions Forums found a CSM and was really surprised by the rates of return and how terrible the CSM felt.

 

I thought that was interesting and worth noting, that a player who arrives to the game significantly after the whole thing and didn't even know about the history of the item would make the very same comments about the 'new' version of the CSM that players were making back after the nerf.

 

So, a couple threads and some posting and this comes up again. To give new players (and old devs) visibility again to the issue and while it was 'dormant' for awhile it is still a significant indicator to the devs of how their behavior has shaped their financial fortunes with this game and why a goodly number of players are no longer players, and former whales are no longer buying cartel coins and spending them.

 

Why some players (like myself) that were a whale and were happily spending the equivalent of 25 subs monthly are just waiting out the end of their sub, and really haven't played the game for months.

 

I wonder if wayyy down the track the CSM will seem like good value due to being the only way to get certificates ... there will be a cert to credit value ( sits around 400-500 imo on the Harb at the mo ) based on the drop rate of the machine and then the sell price for the items you can buy with certs and resell.

 

Currently this is a very small list with a few decorations but maybe they'll unbind the rest in time, make more slot machines for other rep and maybe slightly better cert drop rates.

 

Just thinking out loud really because it would make a killer money sink if the certs could buy ultra rare resellable items that even these drops rates could seem workable. *shrug*

[Xo-Lara]

The end result isn't a loss of trust in BioWare, the end result is a customer who isn't prepared to support changes like these being made in the manner in which it was dealt with. That not only goes for this product, that goes for the whole company and all of the franchises under it. So future Mass Effect titles? Forget it. Future DA titles? Forget it. It wasn't quite enough to kill off my recurring subscription, 4.0 has managed that, as to if I provide them with financial support at a later date? That remains open depending purely on their actions.

 

I understand I think. Although it seems like there is little they can do short of a complete turn around to get you back on board which is unlikely. However, I basically took the same position with other EA games after an open leting regarding the changes made to the latest to how SimCity worked.

 

The letter read like a complete dismissal of the fans that got the game to the point where it was and a statement that only new players were of any concern. After that I swore off the other EA games I played. The only reason I tried to stick it out with SWTOR is because I had faith that Bioware would stay the Bioware I had heard about.... Fast forward to now and I'm with you on the no new EA games thing.

[Banthabreeder]

For my own sanity on this issue, I just came to the conclusion that Bioware just doesn't care about it. They got away with the switch and bate tactic and have moved on. I honestly thought back then, some lawyer would take up this case and sue them over it, but didn't for reasons the rest of us will probably never know. It's really a shame how it went down cause I would have loved other slot machines with different reputation items offered, specifically, Bounty reputation, but I doubt they will ever release a new one now just because they don't want to open an old can of worms or deal with a new one either. Cause you know from their history, they will mess it up as well. Edited February 6, 2016 by Banthabreeder

[ebbehhm]

For my own sanity on this issue, I just came to the conclusion that Bioware just doesn't care about it. They got away with the switch and bate tactic and have moved on. I honestly thought back then, some lawyer would take up this case and sue them over it, but didn't for reasons the rest of us will probably never know. It's really a shame how it went down cause I would have loved other slot machines with different reputation items offered, specifically, Bounty reputation, but I doubt they will ever release a new one now just because they don't want to open an old can of worms or deal with a new one either. Cause you know from their history, they will mess it up as well.

 

So true, when i got the kingpin rancor first roll.. and accidentaly deleted that character a week after... good memories.

[AlrikFassbauer]

So true, when i got the kingpin rancor first roll.. and accidentaly deleted that character a week after... good memories.

 

Never sent in an CM ticket ?

[SteveTheCynic]

So true, when i got the kingpin rancor first roll.. and accidentaly deleted that character a week after... good memories.

I really, really have to ask this...

 

How much had you been drinking when you accidentally deleted a character? It's really, really hard to do that.

[SteveTheCynic]

For my own sanity on this issue, I just came to the conclusion that Bioware just doesn't care about it. They got away with the switch and bate tactic and have moved on. I honestly thought back then, some lawyer would take up this case and sue them over it, but didn't for reasons the rest of us will probably never know. It's really a shame how it went down cause I would have loved other slot machines with different reputation items offered, specifically, Bounty reputation, but I doubt they will ever release a new one now just because they don't want to open an old can of worms or deal with a new one either. Cause you know from their history, they will mess it up as well.

I gots ta know. What exactly would the basis of the lawsuit be? It's really not good to have a judge declare you to be a vexatious litigant, or do they not have that in the US?

[MeNaCe-NZ]

For my own sanity on this issue, I just came to the conclusion that Bioware just doesn't care about it. They got away with the switch and bate tactic and have moved on. I honestly thought back then, some lawyer would take up this case and sue them over it, but didn't for reasons the rest of us will probably never know. It's really a shame how it went down cause I would have loved other slot machines with different reputation items offered, specifically, Bounty reputation, but I doubt they will ever release a new one now just because they don't want to open an old can of worms or deal with a new one either. Cause you know from their history, they will mess it up as well.

 

Lawsuit for what? You bought coins, you got coins. You used coins on gambling packs and got a random drop slot machine ... I don't recall anywhere it being advertised exactly how it worked and what the drop rates were.

[Banthabreeder]

I gots ta know. What exactly would the basis of the lawsuit be? It's really not good to have a judge declare you to be a vexatious litigant, or do they not have that in the US?

 

I'll try to sum it up as short as I can. There is actual documentation somewhere out there that confirms this but I honestly don't want to take the time to find it again because I thought I was done with this.

 

When the slot machine first came out, people commented on how wonderful and generous it was giving out prizes. Most everyone was happy except for a small group of people complaining that it was giving out too much. This group was believed to be the gold farmers that you see advertising constantly on the fleet selling credits for actual dollars. Something that is against Biowares policy but rarely do anything about it. This is also the same group of people that corner the market on mats and charge enormous amount of prices on the GTN for them. The generosity of the slot machine allowed people to get those mats via the Jawa vendors instead, thus cutting into gold farmers profits. Regardless. Bioware responded with a letter to the entire community saying the slot machine was working as intended and for everyone to enjoy it. Alrighty then, with that confirmation, more and more people paid actual dollars to purchase the packs in hopes they too would receive a slot machine. Including people that normally would never spend actual dollars on packs. After a few more complaints were posted that it was going to hurt the economy; which in the end never did, Bioware caved to this small group and nerfed the hell out of the slot machine to complete worthlessness. Basically, switch and bait. 'Here is a slot machine, that we've confirmed, gives out great stuff, all you have to do is pay actual dollars and you too could get one.' Now that you got one... 'Due to a few complaints, were going to nerf the hell out of it to give out diddly squat, even though we've received a ton of money from you all, .' No refunds. No readjusting. End subject as far as they are concerned.

 

If in the beginning, it gave out diddly squat, there wouldn't have been such a clamoring of people investing actual dollars in order to obtain one. It's one thing if the slot machine was given out freely like other items they have given away, it's another thing to take actual dollars for something and then change it after you purchased it.

[Darkwords]

I'll try to sum it up as short as I can. There is actual documentation somewhere out there that confirms this but I honestly don't want to take the time to find it again because I thought I was done with this.

 

When the slot machine first came out, people commented on how wonderful and generous it was giving out prizes. Most everyone was happy except for a small group of people complaining that it was giving out too much. This group was believed to be the gold farmers that you see advertising constantly on the fleet selling credits for actual dollars. Something that is against Biowares policy but rarely do anything about it. This is also the same group of people that corner the market on mats and charge enormous amount of prices on the GTN for them. The generosity of the slot machine allowed people to get those mats via the Jawa vendors instead, thus cutting into gold farmers profits. Regardless. Bioware responded with a letter to the entire community saying the slot machine was working as intended and for everyone to enjoy it. Alrighty then, with that confirmation, more and more people paid actual dollars to purchase the packs in hopes they too would receive a slot machine. Including people that normally would never spend actual dollars on packs. After a few more complaints were posted that it was going to hurt the economy; which in the end never did, Bioware caved to this small group and nerfed the hell out of the slot machine to complete worthlessness. Basically, switch and bait. 'Here is a slot machine, that we've confirmed, gives out great stuff, all you have to do is pay actual dollars and you too could get one.' Now that you got one... 'Due to a few complaints, were going to nerf the hell out of it to give out diddly squat, even though we've received a ton of money from you all, .' No refunds. No readjusting. End subject as far as they are concerned.

 

If in the beginning, it gave out diddly squat, there wouldn't have been such a clamoring of people investing actual dollars in order to obtain one. It's one thing if the slot machine was given out freely like other items they have given away, it's another thing to take actual dollars for something and then change it after you purchased it.

 

Poster here is correct. Eric M. stated it was "Working as intended". He seemed to of omitted the rest of the phrase, it should of stated, "Working as intended for a week". It was an intentional bait and switch and an underhanded ploy to take our actual real dollars then hit the nerf bat. Horrible!

Edited February 7, 2016 by Darkwords

[EnkiduNineEight]

I'll try to sum it up as short as I can. There is actual documentation somewhere out there that confirms this but I honestly don't want to take the time to find it again because I thought I was done with this.

 

When the slot machine first came out, people commented on how wonderful and generous it was giving out prizes. Most everyone was happy except for a small group of people complaining that it was giving out too much. This group was believed to be the gold farmers that you see advertising constantly on the fleet selling credits for actual dollars. Something that is against Biowares policy but rarely do anything about it. This is also the same group of people that corner the market on mats and charge enormous amount of prices on the GTN for them. The generosity of the slot machine allowed people to get those mats via the Jawa vendors instead, thus cutting into gold farmers profits. Regardless. Bioware responded with a letter to the entire community saying the slot machine was working as intended and for everyone to enjoy it. Alrighty then, with that confirmation, more and more people paid actual dollars to purchase the packs in hopes they too would receive a slot machine. Including people that normally would never spend actual dollars on packs. After a few more complaints were posted that it was going to hurt the economy; which in the end never did, Bioware caved to this small group and nerfed the hell out of the slot machine to complete worthlessness. Basically, switch and bait. 'Here is a slot machine, that we've confirmed, gives out great stuff, all you have to do is pay actual dollars and you too could get one.' Now that you got one... 'Due to a few complaints, were going to nerf the hell out of it to give out diddly squat, even though we've received a ton of money from you all, .' No refunds. No readjusting. End subject as far as they are concerned.

 

If in the beginning, it gave out diddly squat, there wouldn't have been such a clamoring of people investing actual dollars in order to obtain one. It's one thing if the slot machine was given out freely like other items they have given away, it's another thing to take actual dollars for something and then change it after you purchased it.

 

You're wrong.

 

The Slot machine, in its first incarnation, was horribly broken and it was hardly jus gold farmers or materials arbitragers who were concerned. I am neither of those things and I was opposed to the slot maching in its original incarnation.

 

Why? Because you could get more money out of it than you could put in. Significantly more money. It could be automated (and was being done so). for a device designed to be a credit sink/fun toy ala the Nar Shaddaa festival units, there was something broken in the tables.

 

Green, Blue and Purple Jawa loot had the same chance to drop. No concern for rarity.

Certs dropped that you could purchase things rom a vendor and then resel for a significant profit.

The rate of reputation items that would drop pretty much were going to pay for a significant portion of your inputed credits.

The cost to retrieve materials of any sort completely obviated send your comps on missions. Ruining crafting/gathering skills and negating all the work people might have done prior to up their companions affectionto achieve better results.

 

So it was economy breaking. Systems breaking and contrary to your assertion, would have benefitted gold farmers far in excess of it 'hurting' them as, due to their methods, they could have basically minted billions of credits with no effort at all.

 

Many of those same people, again myself included, were quite unhappy when the 'repair' was to completely ruin the item so it was barely worth using at all unless you wanted to max rep and hadn't already. They provided many details demonstrating the payout rates before and after. They compared the payout rates and cost per spin to the Nar Shaddaa event. They showed how someone didn't understand the difference between .01 chance and a .01% chance, etc.

 

So your brush is overly broad to paint with.

[Muljo_Stpho]

Look back at the actual post to verify it:

Hey folks,

 

We know that there have been many questions about the Contraband Slot Machine and its intent. Here are a few notes on it:

• The Contraband Slot Machine is not bugged.
  
• It is 100% not an exploit to use the Slot Machine.
  
• If you feel the desire to sell access to your Stronghold, that’s totally up to you. As a reminder, do not scam people as that is against ToS.
  
• We added the Slot Machine as a fun idea based on the positive feedback from the Nightlife event, so spend those credits to your heart’s content!
  

With that being said, we do hear the concern from many of you around the effects of the Jawa Junk’s drop rate on the economy. We are going to take a look at it and make changes accordingly. I will let you know once I know more. In the meantime, have fun!

 

-eric

 

To recap:

* It was not considered to be bugged and using it would not be considered an exploit, BUT

* They were going to look into adjusting the drop rates of Jawa Junk.

 

They acknowledged that the drop rates were questionable and that they would specifically be looking into lowering the rates on the purple Jawa scrap. And then the next thing we heard about it was when the next patch hit and people started finding out that the token cost had been raised, the rate for a losing spin had gone way up, and the combined total of the drop rates of all three Jawa scrap items and the cartel certificates was lower than any one of them had been before.

 

The "working as intended" mantra that people threw around a lot was a paraphrasing of the first part of that post which ignores the last part of that post. There was never any question that some sort of change was incoming. It was never stated that it would be left alone as it was. Then they made changes, as expected, but the size of the changes was far far far more drastic than any reasonable person could have imagined and the state of the machine swung from one extreme to another extreme.

[TX_Angel]

Look back at the actual post to verify it:

 

 

To recap:

* It was not considered to be bugged and using it would not be considered an exploit, BUT

* They were going to look into adjusting the drop rates of Jawa Junk.

 

They acknowledged that the drop rates were questionable and that they would specifically be looking into lowering the rates on the purple Jawa scrap. And then the next thing we heard about it was when the next patch hit and people started finding out that the token cost had been raised, the rate for a losing spin had gone way up, and the combined total of the drop rates of all three Jawa scrap items and the cartel certificates was lower than any one of them had been before.

 

The "working as intended" mantra that people threw around a lot was a paraphrasing of the first part of that post which ignores the last part of that post. There was never any question that some sort of change was incoming. It was never stated that it would be left alone as it was. Then they made changes, as expected, but the size of the changes was far far far more drastic than any reasonable person could have imagined and the state of the machine swung from one extreme to another extreme.

 

That more or less sums it all up...

 

They said it was working, but they were looking at the jawa junk rates...

 

Fair enough, a minor nerf would have been just fine.

 

Heck, they could have cut the drops rates of everything in half, and that would have been fine. Nope, they nuked it from orbit into uselessness...