Ravagers Exploit Action Update

[DarthDymond]

Honestly, DarthDymond... there are those on all sides here..

 

There are many more opinions than "Ban"/"Don't Ban". There are many variations..

 

There are those that believe even a single instance of the exploit should be banned for life.

Others call for a varied action, depending on the degree the player exploited (could be no action)

Others want absolutely no action, but a warning and accounts flagged to be watched in the future

Others want absolutely no action whatsoever

Others believe BW is just blowing smoke and will do nothing

Others blame BW and believe that due to the bug, no hot fix, they are absolved of wrong doing

Others believe that they are a subscriber/buy CC so they should be absolved of wrong doing

Others believe that because they are top end/end game users that provide guides, fansites, or help less privileged players through content they could never do on their own... that they should be absolved of wrong doing

 

Then within each of those groups, you have those threatening either legal action, or to unsub should even a single thing be taken away (as much as 1 credit would make them unsub)... or the ones that wlll unsub if nothing at all is done, or if the action taken is too light.

 

We have the full spectrum of opinion... the ones that draw the most comments are those on either end of the spectrum.

Oh I don't for a second imagine there's some monolithic position being taken by all those bringing up the 'witch hunt' or BW's faults.

 

I'm just asking the various individuals involved to clarify their own personal stance on it in order to get a better picture of things - because right now there are many posts where its not always clear who is saying "issue sanctions if you want, but [don't let BW off the hook, either] / [damn people, chill out about it]" or saying "no, the exploiters haven't done anything wrong because of [bW's (lack of) response] / [people are out to get them]".

Edited January 15, 2015 by DarthDymond

[Max_Killjoy]

As much as it's borderline masochistic to wade back into this thread, I do feel curious enough to ask:

 

Those of you who are saying that "BW are at fault for coding this bug / leaving it in so long" or that "the people who are calling for lifetime bans on everyone are worse than the people who exploited this" - are you also saying that it would be wrong for BW to sanction the exploiters in some way? (Be it by bans, short-term suspensions, or removing items.)

 

Because I am actually indifferent to how BW chooses to sanction exploiters, whether it's doing nothing, giving a warning, issuing a lifetime ban, or anything in between - that's left to their discretion.

 

I do think BW probably mismanaged how they handled the exploit if they really knew about it as long as people claim. I do think it is disturbing that some people are taking a 'damn you cheaters, you should all be shot' attitude. But I don't think any of those things magically absolve exploiters of their own culpability - and I find that people might be taking this blame-shifting approach to be disquieting in the same way (albeit to a lesser extent) as I find the 'witch hunt' crowd disturbing.

 

If BW chooses to be magnanimous and not sanction some/all of the exploiters, that's their right to do so, but I don't understand the stance some are taking that it would be wrong for BW to issue sanctions. So I'm just wondering: are those drawing attention to the 'pitchfork crowd' and/or BW's own mistakes are simply saying "hey, there are other issues that should be addressed in addition to sanctioning the exploiters" or are you saying "these other issues mean exploiters should be completely off the hook"?

 

My stance has been hardened over time to one of "Screw it, do nothing" by my disgust at those baying for blood and demanding some warped version of "justice" and comparing the exploit to real-life crimes in which real people are actually hurt, by those who are rabidly, furiously pointing their finger at anyone who isn't demanding "justice" against "cheaters" and crying out "You're one of THEM too, aren't you?"

 

The overall experience of the game would gain more by the self-imposed exodus of the hardcore witch-hunters and their caustic attitude, than it would gain from the sort of scorched-earth response that too many of them are demanding.

 

We've had people seriously at one point claiming that justice would not be done until anyone who used the bug, bought items looted using the bug, or raided with people who used the bug, was somehow punished.

 

We've had people seriously at one point claiming that it would be better to see SWTOR go under than to do anything less than perma-ban everyone who used the exploit even once.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[TUXs]

Oh I don't for a second imagine there's some monolithic position being taken by all those bringing up the 'witch hunt' or BW's faults.

 

I'm just asking the various individuals involved to clarify their own personal stance on it in order to get a better picture of things - because right now there are many posts where its not always clear who is saying "issue sanctions if you want, but [don't let BW off the hook, either] / [damn people, chill out about it]" or saying "no, the exploiters haven't done anything wrong because of [bW's (lack of) response] / [people are out to get them]".

 

I'll explain my position as well:

 

Big deal.

 

I've completed both Ops (SM) every week since release...aside from my armorings, I'm getting better gear from the elite/ult vendor...but to get those items, I ran old 55 level Ops, which imo, was a much larger issue...3.0 purposefully stripped every comm we had and made them basics...there's no chance in hell they intended for us to cap them again in less than a week.

 

Even if you're in fully optimized 198 gear, until you can beat the mechanics of the new Ops, you're worthless. This is a minimal issue...one that absolutely should have been addressed ASAP by Bioware, but given the whole comms fiasco, this was minor.

 

Bioware needs punish those who profited from and proliferated the exploit, but even that's not worthy of a perma ban.

[hachibushu]

You know what actually upsets me the most about this issue? About all of the discussion, about all the people involved?

 

It's not the exploit in itself. Not even the people who used the exploit. It is the sheer amount of people who believe, going as far as to demand, the moral high ground in this. Who actually think that they can claim that banning everyone, no matter how much they used the "exploit", is the best way to go.

 

It annoys me, maybe even pisses me off, how many people claim to be the instance of judgement in this series of events, disregarding the player behind the screen. There have been some examples in this post, given by people who actually admitted that they were caught up in this exploiting mess. I was "fortunate" enough to know that there was something wrong with the Ravager. Because of that, I was able to deny any part in this before I was pulled into this. I was able to decline any offer made for a "quick way towards gear." or "a free purple crafting material".

 

What also really annoys me is the constant flock of people who demand that, no matter how ridiculous it sounds, they are actually rewarded for not participating in this exploit. Heck, you don't do the right thing because you want a reward for it. I certainly didn't say "no" to everyone who wanted me to participate because I thought I would get some CC. I did it because I, being completely honest, was too lazy to do it.

 

This has become a witch hunt all across the forum and reddit, with people claiming the high ground in terms of moral and character. It's time people calm down again and stop pointing fingers at people for something as this. My gaming experience was in no way altered by the people who participated in this exploit, nor was it made worse by them.

 

Could this mess have been avoided? Yes. Do I think it was a bit unreasonable to leave the exploit within the game for this extended period of time? Certainly. But I think that it's time we forget about this whole incident, let Bioware decide what is best to do, and stop complaining in 10 different threads about this. The exploit is out, Bioware knows who did it. I don't get why people 'still' have to shout for bans over this. Yes, make an example of the worst abusers of this. But don't ban everyone who did it once or twice. Don't roll back all their credits, don't take away all their gear. It shows how much some members of this community would abuse power, if they were given some.

 

It's time we calm down and move on. This witch hunt isn't productive or entertaining, it's simply annoying.

 

Nice response. And to add to it... the fact that people are claiming moral high ground over something that implies absolutely zero moral value. It's digital pixels in a digital world- that still belong to BW/EA, don't you know. Let them decide who they will punish and how... as they're the only people that in the end have any claim to damage over it.

 

And yeah, the witch hunts aren't even entertaining anymore.

[ivanhedgehog]

First of all you would never get your money back, period. Secondly, it matters that it is an MMO because if they were rules against, all MMOs would then be susceptible to that legal precedent. Which would pretty much equal ever MMO shutting down until some legal loophole or new term of service could be found. It is fun and all to think about someone on the phone with their CC company telling lies, then getting busted for said lies, but don't believe the hype. Boohahaha.

 

Also, some people want no punishment for 1 time cheating, some for 2 times. Both of these want to keep their ill gotten gains. It ALL needs to come out of the game, all of it. If not, SWTOR is setting a precedent that you can go in and exploit once, or twice, but you better stop then..... really, they are super serious. So yeah, if you cheated 1 or 2 x don't post that you shouldn't get punished. Take your lumps and move on. It is not going to be anything serious. Oh and when you get your little slap on the wrist, be thankful I am not passing out punishments.

 

all mmo's ARE susceptible to that. you can do it with your swtor account, they will perma ban you and thats it. people have already done that.

 

I have friends that did not do the exploit and they are already disengaging from the game. there are plenty of other things to do with entertainment dollars. the devs have dragged this out and created a toxic mess. they have harmed their own business much more than any exploit. the weeks of doing nothing but stirring the pot are hurting the game more than if they had nuked everyone or done nothing.

Edited January 15, 2015 by ivanhedgehog

[SSGFranklin]

I am glad you guys can track down the people who used the exploit but what i am upset about is that when this expansion came out for some of us that bought our skills with our credits. " that we fairly earned -over 1 mil-" you said that you wont be able to refund us because it be hard to track.. I think you just didn't want to help us out and because the bug can effect your profit you handled it. kinda funny how that works, us paying customers get screwed. excuse the grammar just ranting. lets hope this problem never comes up again.

[lightSaberAddiCt]

That shouldn't entitle anyone to a complete pass but BioWare would be foolish to ban people who are supporting the game financially. People seem to be hung up on the number of times the exploit was used and that's really dependent on how many level 60's people had to do the exploit. If you only had one or two 60's then you obviously couldn't have done it very much. A person with 16 level 60's on the other hand could have gone absolutely nuts.

 

How much they spread the exploit is probably a bigger point of concern than how many times they used it themselves.

 

Actually I dont think the number of 60 alts they have makes any difference. That doesnt mean that you should do it that many times. If a person does it once, maybe twice I think they should just get a pass. If more then that, they should at least have everything they got from it revoked. Those that crazy exploited should have items taken as well as credits earned and a suspension.

 

In the end it is up to BW, it is their discretion, I dont think they are going to ban everyone, but I would suspeft that gear, creds and titles will be gone regardless.

[EzraFett]

again, i take it you havent contested a payment on your cc either? I know people that have done it with mmos, including bw. they contest it, they get the credit, the game publisher bans the account.

 

unless youre some sort of persistent fraud hound that contests charges all the time, this really isnt a big deal. the cc company doesnt care about the vendor. if you've ever managed a business you'd realize this. it happens all the time.

 

I do own a business, I understand chargebacks. I was referring to a poster who said that between her and her friends they were getting over $12,000 back from their credit cards (I think she was saying everything they have spent on the game, subs, and cartel coins). Look if someone calls their cc and gets $15 back I doubt anyone really cares, but when you are talking about $12,000 or more it starts making sense to fight back and maybe make an example of the fraud. I would personally spend $12,000 in lawyers fees to keep from paying a fraud $12,000. I recently spent $22,000+ in legal fees to keep from paying a fraud $48,000. And I told my lawyer I was was willing to spend $48,000. Real businesses don't let frauds and cheats walk all over them.

[Drockter]

Also, some people want no punishment for 1 time cheating, some for 2 times. Both of these want to keep their ill gotten gains. It ALL needs to come out of the game, all of it. If not, SWTOR is setting a precedent that you can go in and exploit once, or twice, but you better stop then..... really, they are super serious. So yeah, if you cheated 1 or 2 x don't post that you shouldn't get punished. Take your lumps and move on. It is not going to be anything serious. Oh and when you get your little slap on the wrist, be thankful I am not passing out punishments.

 

I think you are confusing why people are asking for degrees of actions taken against a users account.

 

My stance is this;

 

If the player received anything from using the exploit, that should be removed (this includes schemantics, equipment, achievements, and any credits gained from selling (be that GTN, or access to the exploit (my stance is that even if this would drag the person into the negative credit hole). This should be done to ALL who participated in the exploit....

 

Where people are calling for degress in punishment is when it comes to bans. I do not think that a person who did it once, vs a person who did it across 22 characters over a period of weeks deserve the same ban length.

 

If you spread word about it, sold access to it, taught others how to use it... thats different... thats what really made this an exploit... those people should be perma-banned (in my opinion).

[Grayseven]

Nice response. And to add to it... the fact that people are claiming moral high ground over something that implies absolutely zero moral value. It's digital pixels in a digital world- that still belong to BW/EA, don't you know. Let them decide who they will punish and how... as they're the only people that in the end have any claim to damage over it.

 

And yeah, the witch hunts aren't even entertaining anymore.

 

You either do not understand morality or simply lack any morals whatsoever.

 

The moral high ground is simple: Cheating is wrong. It doesn't matter if it is in a game or real life. And to be honest, I personally feel that "once a cheater, always a cheater". In other words, what you do in a game mirrors what you do in real life.

 

Morality is simple, being a moral person isn't. I knew of this exploit and many others and partook in none of them. I reported things that may or may not have been exploits as I learned about them. Morality (not to mention a strong dose of common sense) tells me that cheating can have consequences far beyond the short term gain or satisfaction that cheating provides. Morality allows me to ignore the temptation when I see others cheating. Morality causes me to admit to my mistakes rather than trying to make excuses for them and silently suffer the consequences of my mistakes.

 

However, some people may not share my view of morality or find the very concept of morality to be laughable. But the basic premise of morality can be boiled down to three words: Do no wrong. Wrong might have different meanings for different people depending on creed, culture, nationality, religion or basic upbringing but society as a whole defines what is right or wrong, also known as mores.

 

Society sees cheating as wrong. When a person is caught cheating...at anything...they expect repercussions because society believes that doing wrong deserves punishment. This might not stop some from doing wrong (and 30 minutes spent watching the news shows it doesn't) but society as a whole understands the results of doing wrong.

 

Every person who has posted here knows the difference between right and wrong but it is human nature to try to justify wrong actions either through displacing blame or trying to convince others that there isn't anything to be blamed for. Regardless, those who have done wrong ultimately know they have done wrong. Cheating in a video game isn't as wrong as committing a capital crime and even the worst punishment for it like a permanent ban isn't a life changing event like, say, life without parole that you'd get with a capital crime. Still, if you expect to cheat and not get punished when caught...no matter how major or minor the cheating is...you have another think coming.

 

The only truth in your statement is that it is EA/BW's decision on who to punish and how, but you can't expect people who didn't cheat to remain silent when those who did flood the forums in order to justify their cheating or deflect the blame onto others.

[DinoDo]

The only truth in your statement is that it is EA/BW's decision on who to punish and how, but you can't expect people who didn't cheat to remain silent when those who did flood the forums in order to justify their cheating or deflect the blame onto others.

This is why I feel dragging this out even more was a mistake on BW's part. It's only serving to make the forums unpleasant and sow discord amongst the community.

[Alanbra]

I assume that everyone in this thread who complained about the exploiters and how they ruined the in game economy by making 192 gear cheaper, will be showing up in the slot machine threads to complain about how Bioware destroyed the in game economy by making purple crafting materials cheaper. See y'all there!

[dscount]

Nice posts today!

 

BIOWARE SUGGESTION: For sake of sanity in FUTURE Exploits of this type... please take immediate action and LOCK OUT the Operation until fixed. This would not have exploded like it did if the instance was locked down.

 

While I agree those that seriously abused/benefited SHOULD be banned (Likely TEMP) and a staggered penalty of some sort, I also think others (less guilty) should have accounts flagged and severe warnings issued. ALL of them should have said gear removed (That's a no brainer), but the pitch fork "burn them all at the stake" mentality is just shocking to me.

 

For all my forums friends... WOW!! I'm amazed at the sheer volume of HATE and mob mentality that has surfaced and clearly divided the masses into two camps. We have a long road ahead of gaming together and even at the guild levels I've seen some rifts recently created over this exploit that never existed before. At the end of the day or BAN's we still have to all get along, but some of the things said/done during this exploit have left a pretty bitter taste in peoples mouth. It's a game, but its a game with virtual friends online. When it becomes a HOSTILE game then folks are not as excited about playing it anymore (Or with specific people at least).

 

PLAYERS SUGGESTION: So how about everyone... relax, stop creating new threads on the topic, stop posting excuses, get off your high horses, put down the pitch forks, stop posting for bans on other exploits, cease personal attacks and just let Bioware do what they need to do and lets move forward eh?

[RagingCyclone]

About 40 pages back or so I joked that this whole drama was like the Jerry Springer show and kinda still is.

 

To be serious, both sides of this debate have merit. Both sides are right and also wrong.

Was the xpac faulty? Yes

Was using the exploit a form of cheating? From some perspectives it was.

Has the exploit been used by a larger than normal amount of players? Absolutely or this whole debate would never have happened to this extent.

 

Some have used actions of other MMO's as a reference on how to handle this situation, but forget the very large elephant in the room. Blizzard owns Warcraft. Bethesda owns Elder Scrolls. Bioware does not own Star Wars. The people who do own Star Wars are releasing a movie this year that in all likelihood will generate more revenue for them than this game in it's entirety, and whether directly or indirectly their interests must be taken into account. If they feel that the decisions made now regarding a section of their hardcore fanbase (if you play this game then in public opinion you are a hardcore SW fan) creates a negative impact on their franchise then they are well within their right to pull the plug at any time. I would not want to be in BW's shoes atm. Their opinion will matter more than any of ours regarding what comes next.

 

Both the players and BW are at fault in this situation. BW for allowing the said exploit to exist upon release and the players who performed their own version of a consumer rebellion by using the exploit. The mentality being "all these bugs and lag issues hinder my enjoyment, lost credits from training, so why not use the one bug that gives me something?" Whether that mentality was right or wrong at present is moot, it exists and that is at the heart of the issue and has created the divide amongst the player base.

 

That being said, the best solution I can figure to mitigate losses for BW, the game itself, and the playerbase (this is a no-win situation no matter what decision is made) is to withhold the complimentary Cartel Coins awarded each month to those who used the exploit for the next month or two. This would serve as a punishment for those who feel punishment is deserved and also can appease those who used the exploit feeling they were given a faulty product after paying real money for the game and their subscription.

 

In any case I am sure this will be seen as ludicrous to some and let the attacks begin. Either way I have added my two cents in a serious form and offered a solution that could appease both sides.

[EzraFett]

If BW chooses to be magnanimous and not sanction some/all of the exploiters, that's their right to do so, but I don't understand the stance some are taking that it would be wrong for BW to issue sanctions. So I'm just wondering: are those drawing attention to the 'pitchfork crowd' and/or BW's own mistakes are simply saying "hey, there are other issues that should be addressed in addition to sanctioning the exploiters" or are you saying "these other issues mean exploiters should be completely off the hook"?

 

Well the exploiters that are in my guild think that since the game has unfixed issues, they get to do whatever they want. One said, "The game is exploiting me with broken boss fights, so I am exploiting the game". Serious, that is a word for word quote.

 

Whatever BW does is what they do. I doubt anyone is getting a lifetime ban, and if anyone does it will be very very few. Nothing anyone says here matters. BW is not reading all of this to help them decide what action to take. The people claiming to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on the cartel market every month in some misguided hope that they will not get any action against their account for exploiting is really entertaining. People freak out on MMO forums all of the time. There is always someone saying they are leaving, or all of their guild is leaving; then people say can I has ur stuff. I for one do hope that credits, gear, schematics, mats, etc gotten through using the exploit are removed from the exploiters' accounts. I hope, but I have no delusion that by posting I am swaying any BW employee's mind.

 

So far in this thread I have seen that everyone who states a law, or something about credit cards, or something about software, is an absolute expert in whatever field they are talking about. Some are experts in all fields that are brought up. No wonder they have $8000 per month to blow on cartel coins. They must also be experts on investing, because $8000 per month spent on pixels has a mad return rate.

 

Anyway reading threads like this every once in a while is part of the MMO scene. You have to wade through a lot, but there are some real gems in this thread. They guy that posted like a service droid cracked me up.

[Pagy]

what you do in a game mirrors what you do in real life.

according to grayseven im a serial killer

 

thanks dude for some of us video games are just for fun and don't have anything to do with how we behave in real life. because it isnt real life.

[lightSaberAddiCt]

This is why I feel dragging this out even more was a mistake on BW's part. It's only serving to make the forums unpleasant and sow discord amongst the community.

 

When have the forums EVER been pleasant?

[Drockter]

according to grayseven im a serial killer

 

thanks dude for some of us video games are just for fun and don't have anything to do with how we behave in real life. because it isnt real life.

 

Yeah... Greyseven said that...

 

However, some people may not share my view of morality or find the very concept of morality to be laughable.

 

Personally, I think his post was spot on.

[Siburi]

As I have tried to keep up with this thread and talked with friends in game, I really get the sense that there is mounting frustration against the game and BW/EA. Patches for bugs, with bugs, lack of content, lack of support and so on. The exploit seems to be a way to " stick it to the man".

 

I'm sure people want to view it as a black and white issue, but with the lack of action by BW/EA it becomes a gray area. Other exploits went unfixed for months and now this one was at least a month. The lack of action(s) by the company over this exploit has infuriated players. As it has been stated in previous, when your track record is to do nothing, what do you expect.

 

Anyway, I am just going to wait to see what, if any action is actually taken against players. That will be the answer everyone is looking for from the company and I'm sure whatever action is taken will not be to everyone's satisfaction.

 

Keep calm and keep gaming

[EzraFett]

I think you are confusing why people are asking for degrees of actions taken against a users account.

 

My stance is this;

 

If the player received anything from using the exploit, that should be removed (this includes schemantics, equipment, achievements, and any credits gained from selling (be that GTN, or access to the exploit (my stance is that even if this would drag the person into the negative credit hole). This should be done to ALL who participated in the exploit....

 

Where people are calling for degress in punishment is when it comes to bans. I do not think that a person who did it once, vs a person who did it across 22 characters over a period of weeks deserve the same ban length.

 

If you spread word about it, sold access to it, taught others how to use it... thats different... thats what really made this an exploit... those people should be perma-banned (in my opinion).

 

I agree with you. All ill gotten gains need to come out of the game. I was just saying that many who say they did it 1 or 2 times don't think they should receive any punishment.

[Max_Killjoy]

You either do not understand morality or simply lack any morals whatsoever.

 

I'll add that to my file of examples...

[jubakumbi]

... the devs have dragged this out and created a toxic mess. they have harmed their own business much more than any exploit. the weeks of doing nothing but stirring the pot are hurting the game more than if they had nuked everyone or done nothing.

 

The only group stirring the pot and creating a toxic mess are the posters on the forums, IME.

 

On both sides of the arguments occurring here, I see toxic comments and posts clearly trying to stir up trouble, none of which came from Bioware.

 

We simply have a ton of impatient, aggressive, spoiled gamer geeks that actually think they know better ways to do everything, that think a month is a long time and that their every desire should be fulfilled.

 

In other words, whole lot of people that need to get over themselves.

 

One the one hand, it's entertaining and fascinating to watch, while on the other hand it makes me hesitate to label myself as a gamer.

[Max_Killjoy]

I am glad you guys can track down the people who used the exploit but what i am upset about is that when this expansion came out for some of us that bought our skills with our credits. " that we fairly earned -over 1 mil-" you said that you wont be able to refund us because it be hard to track.. I think you just didn't want to help us out and because the bug can effect your profit you handled it. kinda funny how that works, us paying customers get screwed. excuse the grammar just ranting. lets hope this problem never comes up again.

 

It is rather odd, what we're told they can track and what we're told they can't, isn't it?

[BuriDogshin]

I agree with you. All ill gotten gains need to come out of the game.

If it is even possible, identifying and then removing all the ill-gotten gains would require substantial effort by the SWTOR team. Plus it risks removing legitimately-acquired items from completely innocent players, especially if not performed very carefully. And it is not something that BW's CS call center employees can do. It will take coding by people with in-depth knowledge of the games internals.

 

So how much should BW be willing to push back the patches for the bugs that make the game unplayable to achieve your goal? And push back the next release of new content as well. Would those push-backs be good for the game, the players, or BioWare? I think not.

 

You're basically asking BioWare to punish itself . In fact, you're asking BioWare to inflict a self-punishment on itself that is far more severe, in its real life impact, than the punishment you want imposed on the exploiters.

[Alssaran]

Every person who has posted here knows the difference between right and wrong but it is human nature to try to justify wrong actions either through displacing blame or trying to convince others that there isn't anything to be blamed for. Regardless, those who have done wrong ultimately know they have done wrong. Cheating in a video game isn't as wrong as committing a capital crime and even the worst punishment for it like a permanent ban isn't a life changing event like, say, life without parole that you'd get with a capital crime. Still, if you expect to cheat and not get punished when caught...no matter how major or minor the cheating is...you have another think coming.

 

But you leave out one thing in your explanation, which is important as to what a "witch hunt", or this series of events, implies. It's the fact that people who weren't hurt, damaged or otherwise influenced by the deed can render that punishment.

 

You can certainly say you think you have the high ground in terms of morality, but I wouldn't care. Even if you have the superior ground, this thing does not concern you. Are you an employee from Bioware? Are you in any way related to a branch of EA? This decision is, at the end of the day, Biowares.

 

What's offensive to me, and propably a few others, is the indifferent attitude of people to shove the moral high-ground into your face. Did you experience any significant harm by this exploit? Was your gameplay experience in any way influenced for the bad? If the answer to those two questions is no, then you should remember that it is not your place nor decision to ask for a punishment.

 

The most terrifying thing about this is that, seeing the forums lately, people aren't only judging, but blindly judging. They deem that their decision for a punishment is right, when in reality, it's not based on any reason or circumstance. You can take the moral high ground all you want. You can even deem a deed "right" or "wrong", make up your mind about it. But do not try to render judgement when it doesn't concern you or you are the person harmed/wronged by it.