Ravagers Exploit Action Update

[Nigredo]

Being a sheepish carebear would imply that I'm soft.

 

If I had my way, I'd have already permanently banned EVERYONE involved. Trust me, I'm the one carebear you should be glad isn't allowed access to the ban hammer.

 

p.s.

The rant in your signature about fascist moderators, LOL Just another example of a player who lacks accountability.

 

meh, bored already +1 on your internet warrior status though..for your small minded attempt to throw me under the bus for what exactly lmao, you and all the other care bears are just about spent, this thread started in the septic system of this game and somehow got worse over i dunno how many pages. how anything lacks accountability is beyond me.. but then again its the forums.. everyone has something to say here and none of it means a damn. the energy you simple minded sheep have put into this one minor flaw in the game astounds me. I don't know who is worse the lynch mob of self righteous e-warriors or the people making excuses for using the so called exploit. anything said is just a even more ignorant and self righteous regurgitation of the post before it. its like a broken record being played over and over again voiced by a screeching woman with multiple personalities. in the end after all the false bravado and pitchfork crowd have gone on to complain about some other facet of this game this whole thing will be forgotten.

 

it's a game.. crying foul every time something doesn't work your way or jumping on the flavor of the month bandwagon every time you leeches get a scent of blood is getting old.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Nigredo

[ivanhedgehog]

BW - whatever you're going to do, please do it soon. My brain is starting to lag due to all of the "bad things people in SWTOR do" threads and their various opinions. Everybody is entitled to an opinion, but this is getting out of hand.

 

bw is using this to cover them for the com nerf. this morning people were talking up a storm about that...now it is just vigilante fights

[euroDSMtuner]

Ill ask this again,

 

So what happens to those that did the exploit, then after the threats started flying like bloody fracking mortars, destroyed the gear and mats they had acquired from said exploit? Should they also be burnt, gassed, and banned in the same group of those who decided to keep all the items they got? Even if they kept a few items (i.e. a few mods or enhancements) does that really seem fair to those who willingly destroyed (not sold) the items to show that yes they performed the exploit, but decided to get rid of the fruits of the exploit? I mean, perhaps selling the lockouts or charging for the items crafted from them maybe should get a little harsher punishment, then the ones that spread it to other servers get an even more harsh punishment. IMO, I think there is going to be several tiers of punishment, this isn't going to be a one-size-fits-all sweep.

[HiltoftheDragon]

Ill ask this again,

 

So what happens to those that did the exploit, then after the threats started flying like bloody fracking mortars, destroyed the gear and mats they had acquired from said exploit? Should they also be burnt, gassed, and banned in the same group of those who decided to keep all the items they got? Even if they kept a few items (i.e. a few mods or enhancements) does that really seem fair to those who willingly destroyed (not sold) the items to show that yes they performed the exploit, but decided to get rid of the fruits of the exploit? I mean, perhaps selling the lockouts or charging for the items crafted from them maybe should get a little harsher punishment, then the ones that spread it to other servers get an even more harsh punishment. IMO, I think there is going to be several tiers of punishment, this isn't going to be a one-size-fits-all sweep.

 

This has been asked 37 times in this thread. No answer yet from any intelligent source.

[LordArtemis]

The sentiments from both sides of the fence are rather...well....frankly over the top.

 

You have folks on one side, shifting blame, claiming bans will kill the game, daring Bioware to do something, deriding forum members for wanting sanctions....

 

...and then on the other side you have forum members grabbing the pitchforks and torches, threatening to quit the game if nothing is done, foaming at the mouth.

 

It's ridiculous.

 

The most disturbing thing of all is that it is likely that in a few months most folks will not remember or care about this. So you disrespect yourselves now for all to see, and leave that as a testament to your total lack of self control.

 

I think some of you guys need a vacation from your keyboards. Trust me when I say it would be for your own good...you are not doing yourselves any favors here.

 

THINK about what you are doing, what you are saying. Do you REALLY want to be known for these kind of comments?

 

Collect yourselves, all of you. Your acting like packs of hungry wolves.

[euroDSMtuner]

^^^^

 

 

Wait for it....

[ivanhedgehog]

If Bioware calls it an exploit... it's an exploit... if they were to hand out consequences for doing it... I'd accept that... I have run SnV and TfB and received ultimate comms...

 

I accept responsibility for the actions I take.... and will fully accept the consequences for those actions.

 

So, if it is deemed an exploit, then I deserve what consequences come... but they haven't called that an exploit have they?

 

does bioware make all moral decisions for you? its ok to cheat if Eric tells you it is? your moral compass revolves around Eric Musco?

[AdeiphoVH]

The sentiments from both sides of the fence are rather...well....frankly over the top.

 

You have folks on one side, shifting blame, claiming bans will kill the game, daring Bioware to do something, deriding forum members for wanting sanctions....

 

...and then on the other side you have forum members grabbing the pitchforks and torches, threatening to quit the game if nothing is done, foaming at the mouth.

 

It's ridiculous.

 

The most disturbing thing of all is that it is likely that in a few months most folks will not remember or care about this. So you disrespect yourselves now for all to see, and leave that as a testament to your total lack of self control.

 

I think some of you guys need a vacation from your keyboards. Trust me when I say it would be for your own good...you are not doing yourselves any favors here.

 

THINK about what you are doing, what you are saying. Do you REALLY want to be known for these kind of comments?

 

Collect yourselves, all of you. Your acting like packs of hungry wolves.

 

what are you talking about, Im Internet Famous for these kinds of comments.

[Siburi]

The entire QC team should be punished for releasing such a bug filled expansion.

[Kourage]

They can't draw up new icons for the level 500 Mission Discoveries, but they got time for this lol.

How you going to remove exonium and transtantiators from players who have sold them or used them to craft an item, and possibly sold that item. You're going to sit there and go through every players account 1 by 1 searching for mods pulled out and placed into cartel or legacy pieces? You gonna take away any extra credits or items gained by crafting crits, using exploited materials they gained exploiting to craft? Who is going to make the decisions? Some low paid tool who doesn't even play the game?

 

Sounds like there's going to be a massive sell off of all crafting materials gained.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Kourage

[BuriDogshin]

The sentiments from both sides of the fence are rather...well....frankly over the top.

 

You have folks on one side, shifting blame, claiming bans will kill the game, ...

...and then on the other side you have forum members grabbing the pitchforks and torches, threatening to quit ...

It's ridiculous.

Especially since in the end, BioWare probably won't make it's decision based on forum member's opinion of right or wrong, or excuses, or threats, or forum invective.

 

They will most likely make their decision on what is best for their own careers, their bosses' careers and (one would hope) EA's shareholders. The long term health of SWTOR hopefully figures prominently in that decision (assuming no one wants to be "the manager that made the decision that killed a 100+-million dollar franchise.")

 

BioWare has the data. They know how many people did the exploit. They have a good idea who the people are who popularized it. They can watch Cartel Coin sales in the time since Eric's first message on the subject and see whether the FUD has impacted cartel coin sales, and from that maybe get a feel for the impact any sanctions may have if those numbers have declined compared to comparable time periods (e.g. other Pack releases). They have all that data and more, which none of us have access to.

 

BioWare will probably take all that data and assess the impact of any actions they could take will probably have on SWTOR's bottom line. Then they will do whatever seems safest and most profitable for themselves and SWTOR.

 

Because it is highly unlikely that anyone at BioWare will lose their job or their next raise over whether they choose to sanction the exploiters or not, as long as revenue doesn't substantially decline as a result of what they do.

[Neoforcer]

The sentiments from both sides of the fence are rather...well....frankly over the top.

 

You have folks on one side, shifting blame, claiming bans will kill the game, daring Bioware to do something, deriding forum members for wanting sanctions....

 

...and then on the other side you have forum members grabbing the pitchforks and torches, threatening to quit the game if nothing is done, foaming at the mouth.

 

It's ridiculous.

 

The most disturbing thing of all is that it is likely that in a few months most folks will not remember or care about this. So you disrespect yourselves now for all to see, and leave that as a testament to your total lack of self control.

 

I think some of you guys need a vacation from your keyboards. Trust me when I say it would be for your own good...you are not doing yourselves any favors here.

 

THINK about what you are doing, what you are saying. Do you REALLY want to be known for these kind of comments?

 

Collect yourselves, all of you. Your acting like packs of hungry wolves.

 

Have to agree like i said in another thread this community is toxic which leads to downfall of a game. People should care more about the game they love then to get the pitchforks and torches out. As it never end well for those involved in said pitchforks and torches. Ultimately BW is to blame for this fiasco and getting all hot a bothered by some one that did the exploit is not they way to go about things. Especially when some were threaten by guildies to do it or else. People need to step back and play the game.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Neoforcer

[BuriDogshin]

The entire QC team should be punished for releasing such a bug filled expansion.

 

Perhaps, but not because of the Ravagers exploit by itself. It wasn't that significant an exploit until it went viral. You don't want all your devs living in fear that any mistake might result in them being punished: some will move to safer pastures as a result, and many of the rest are likely to be less creative and less productive because they are afraid to make a mistake. Fear is not a good way to motive coders and artists.

[humandevil]

FIX YOUR GAME................................................ WAS BROKEN IN BETA......... was it wrong to do this exploit probly. and for you to say not many ppl did this. is a BIG lie. I can name atleast 2 server's that 85% of the population did it. this all boils down to FIX your game. the ops' boss's are still broken. some worse than before.

[Drockter]

Well... according to the original post... they already know the details... the who, the what, and the when. Trying to hide it now... probably isn't in your best interest.

 

The reason, in my opinion, they haven't started the "appropriate actions" is that they are trying to decide where to draw the line (i.e. at what level of exploit constitutes a ban, vs. a suspension), assessing financial impact, etc. they have more data on the possible financial impact and player losses than anyone here can come close to.

 

Its too late now to think that nothing will be done. At this point I, honestly, think the defenders of the exploiters are doing more damage to their chances than anyone on the Torch and Pitchfork brigade. You're backing them into a corner... they are going to have to come out swinging on this... its too public now not to... the deeper they feel they need to make their point... the wider the ban hammer will swing.

[KTap]

FIX YOUR GAME................................................ WAS BROKEN IN BETA......... was it wrong to do this exploit probly. and for you to say not many ppl did this. is a BIG lie. I can name atleast 2 server's that 85% of the population did it. this all boils down to FIX your game. the ops' boss's are still broken. some worse than before.

 

Please, name the servers with hard evidence to back it up. I'll wait.

[BuriDogshin]

Its too late now to think that nothing will be done. ... they are going to have to come out swinging on this... its too public now not to... the deeper they feel they need to make their point... the wider the ban hammer will swing.

I disagree. As far as I know, it is highly likely that no one outside BioWare will ever know how widely they applied sanctions, or who they sanctioned, because BioWare won't tell us. The last major sanctions, for the Collections sell-back bug, the only data that was erver made public, to my knowledge, is that about 150 people were banned by mistake and were being reinstated. No other info was provided.

 

People will self-report of course, but that won't be a statistically valid sample or data you can trust. Even people who disappear may have just quit without being sanctioned (like I may do if enough of my friends quit or get banned).

 

So BioWare can ban, say, just the people who sold the lockout or advertised it in Fleet chat, and you will not know that they did not take any further action, will you?

 

Nothing anyone has said in these forums has restricted BioWare's options in the least, with the possible exception of people who outright admitted they did the exploit and therefore sort of volunteered to be made an example of. Other than those people, we'll never know how many exploiters got off scott free or with just a warning. BioWare will, but you and I won't.

[Cyzicus]

When I go to Quesh as a Republic character and I go to the side where the Imps do missions and scavenge materials that are surrounded by Republic NPCs with no fear of the NPCs trying to kill me, is that an exploit? Since I know that is not the way the game is intended to be played. Am I taking advantage of the game? Will I get banned for that?

[sd_bluesrt]

Well... according to the original post... they already know the details... the who, the what, and the when. Trying to hide it now... probably isn't in your best interest.

 

The reason, in my opinion, they haven't started the "appropriate actions" is that they are trying to decide where to draw the line (i.e. at what level of exploit constitutes a ban, vs. a suspension), assessing financial impact, etc. they have more data on the possible financial impact and player losses than anyone here can come close to.

 

Its too late now to think that nothing will be done. At this point I, honestly, think the defenders of the exploiters are doing more damage to their chances than anyone on the Torch and Pitchfork brigade. You're backing them into a corner... they are going to have to come out swinging on this... its too public now not to... the deeper they feel they need to make their point... the wider the ban hammer will swing.

 

At the end of the day, this has nothing to do with asserting authority or appeasing the pitchfork holders. It has everything to do with profits.

 

Bioware isn't Blizzard. They can't afford a mass exodus. While they can afford to lose the major offenders, they can't afford to lose much more without severe consequences. TOR's revenue was somewhere in the ballpark of $160M last year. At 500k subs, that's roughly $27/account/month.

 

If they were to lose even 5% of its base over this debacle, they are at minimum going to lose $6M annually. That's at 5 percent, and assuming all of the subs spent $13/month on subscription.

 

Now, take into account how widespread this is. I would bet a years salary that it touches much more than 5% of player base.

 

Now, take into account how much the offending individuals actually spend. I can tell you that I pay my sub fee, and that's all. That means that someone else is paying my extra $12/month, meaning they must be spending at least $39/month.

 

The situation compounds even quicker as exposure continues.

 

This is not a simple "Developer swings hammer" situation. To think in this manner shows a complete disregard for sane business practices and logic all together.

 

They really need to let the number crunchers take point on this one.

[Kebrin]

Good riddance?

 

Your entire reply seems to be based on the premise that you can prove me wrong or humiliate me into adopting your way of enjoying the game we both pay for. What's interesting is that you are trying to force your value system on me; I am not trying to force anything on you. I am asking for Bioware to honor the mistake they made. If they want to retaliate against me for a mistake they made, then I will stop playing the game. You equate my looting a boss in an op that I did not myself kill with felony B&E and larceny.

 

If you didn't want me to burgle your house you shouldn't have had glass windows! I won't be prosecuted for this! I will quit life and no more taxes for you stupid government! ( assuming losers like that paid taxes ).

 

Bro, it's a video game. You just compared it to a felony. Cool out.

 

That's exactly what you're doing. Read your own damn post heh.

 

I: used another person's lockout to enter a phase. (This is something that is not against the ToS). Looted a chest (not against the ToS). Exited the phase. (Not against the ToS). How this becomes felony B&E is beyond me.

 

Really it's people like you who think you are justified in your actions that really make me hate the exploiters all the more. Why? Because you paid to play? So did many who didn't cheat genius.

 

I choose to play the game in the way that I choose to play the game. The +10 All Stats on Rishi was bugged recently, and I took advantage of that bug to get the datacron on all my toons without having to do the quest line. I feel completely justified in doing so. I wanted the stats, they were available, I took them. It's a fantasy world. If I saw $20 on the street would I pick it up and walk off? No, of course not. That's the real world. This is a videogame. I chose to take advantage of an opportunity to get free gear and mats. The opportunity didn't involve disenfranchising anyone else, nor did it involve trespassing or vandalizing BW's system. I felt no more 'entitled' to do it than I did to get the +10 on Rishi, or looting a boss I had defeated.

 

I get that you hold yourself to a higher pretend moral standard in a pretend videogame. And that's great. But I don't care about it. It's not that I think you're wrong, I am glad that you enjoy playing the game in a 'moral' way - I wish you well. I choose to play the game the way I want. I'm sorry that offends you, but it's what I'm going to do - and if I find that it's not permitted, I won't pay to play the game. It's not a threat, it's a statement of purpose. BW solicited feedback from the community, and I gave it. Now you're here, trying to humiliate me and censor me. So much for your moralism.

 

Still posts like Kebrin's have got to be the worst I've seen in not only thinking you shouldn't be punished but are justified in keeping the gear you got. What a tool.

 

Punished *for what*? Using a lockout to enter a phase? Looting a chest? Point to a specific action I did that was wrong.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Kebrin

[Balsagne]

there is a lot of things that could happen with action on the exploit. One being that it would cripple the game itself. If you had a decent enough R&D department then this stuff wouldnt happen things get broken in this game almost every patch. Bosses that cant be beaten, animations that get stuck, lag in places that shouldnt be there. just maybe you should work harder on making sure your stuff is working right and pleasing your paying subscribers who spend thousand of dollars on this game a year. They wouldnt be doing this if you took the time to make sure we had quality content that worked properly

[LordArtemis]

Self deprecation and demonstration of a lack of self respect it is I guess......

 

Can't stop folks from iceskating uphill after all.

[Derat]

I choose to play the game in the way that I choose to play the game. The +10 All Stats on Rishi was bugged recently, and I took advantage of that bug to get the datacron on all my toons without having to do the quest line. I feel completely justified in doing so. I wanted the stats, they were available, I took them. It's a fantasy world. If I saw $20 on the street would I pick it up and walk off? No, of course not. That's the real world. This is a videogame. I chose to take advantage of an opportunity to get free gear and mats. The opportunity didn't involve disenfranchising anyone else, nor did it involve trespassing or vandalizing BW's system. I felt no more 'entitled' to do it than I did to get the +10 on Rishi, or looting a boss I had defeated.

 

I get that you hold yourself to a higher pretend moral standard in a pretend videogame. And that's great. But I don't care about it. It's not that I think you're wrong, I am glad that you enjoy playing the game in a 'moral' way - I wish you well. I choose to play the game the way I want. I'm sorry that offends you, but it's what I'm going to do - and if I find that it's not permitted, I won't pay to play the game. It's not a threat, it's a statement of purpose. BW solicited feedback from the community, and I gave it. Now you're here, trying to humiliate me and censor me. So much for your moralism.

 

This sums it up nicely. My guildies and I were chatting tonight about what game we will all move to if they are heavy handed here (not because we all used the exploit but the server pop will die - even if they are too short sighted to see that). The game has been getting stale, the quality has been embarrassing... there are other things to spend money on. We like the game, mostly because of the license, but if they make it more painful than it already is... If they really put in the man hours now to reverse engineer all the possible ways that people could have gained from this when they didn't put in the man hours to fix it on the PTS or shut it down over the last 3-4 weeks or to fix the hundreds of quality of life things that are missing or not working but they will invest dev time in a witch hunt punishing people for Bioware's lazy mistake... like I said other games to play... things to do.

[Siburi]

Perhaps, but not because of the Ravagers exploit by itself. It wasn't that significant an exploit until it went viral. You don't want all your devs living in fear that any mistake might result in them being punished: some will move to safer pastures as a result, and many of the rest are likely to be less creative and less productive because they are afraid to make a mistake. Fear is not a good way to motive coders and artists.

 

Right, people are paid to do a job. Before the exploit the expansion was filled with bugs and glitches. No software is without it's challenges, but this release was pretty bad. Where is the accountability on their end, in not doing enough test and finding these bugs or exploits. They want to come down on those who exploited this bug, I still feel they need to come down on those inside who approved this release.

 

Other than that, everyone knows exploiting a bug is wrong.

[LadyVix]

Your entire reply seems to be based on the premise that you can prove me wrong or humiliate me into adopting your way of enjoying the game we both pay for. What's interesting is that you are trying to force your value system on me; I am not trying to force anything on you. I am asking for Bioware to honor the mistake they made. If they want to retaliate against me for a mistake they made, then I will stop playing the game. You equate my looting a boss in an op that I did not myself kill with felony B&E and larceny.

Wrong. You're not asking Bioware to do anything but allow you to break the rules without consequence. Where should Bioware draw the line? When does personal responsibility and integrity figure into the equation? They were slow in dealing with the mistake, but you were wrong for exploiting a game mechanic that you knew was against the TOS. Both parties are to blame, but Bioware will eat part of it in (potential) revenue loss. They're going to take a big bite out of that proverbial s*** sandwich... what are you going to do?

 

Bro, it's a video game. You just compared it to a felony. Cool out.

 

This is more than an issue of "it's just a video game." If it was important enough for people to blatantly cheat the system, it's important enough to warrant sanctions.

 

I choose to play the game in the way that I choose to play the game. The +10 All Stats on Rishi was bugged recently, and I took advantage of that bug to get the datacron on all my toons without having to do the quest line. I feel completely justified in doing so. I wanted the stats, they were available, I took them. It's a fantasy world. If I saw $20 on the street would I pick it up and walk off? No, of course not. That's the real world. This is a videogame. I chose to take advantage of an opportunity to get free gear and mats. The opportunity didn't involve disenfranchising anyone else, nor did it involve trespassing or vandalizing BW's system. I felt no more 'entitled' to do it than I did to get the +10 on Rishi, or looting a boss I had defeated.

 

Ultimately you took advantage of a known flaw in the system to further you own greed. You knowingly broke the rules, so tell me again why you shouldn't pay for your transgressions?

 

I get that you hold yourself to a higher pretend moral standard in a pretend videogame. And that's great. But I don't care about it. It's not that I think you're wrong, I am glad that you enjoy playing the game in a 'moral' way - I wish you well. I choose to play the game the way I want. I'm sorry that offends you, but it's what I'm going to do - and if I find that it's not permitted, I won't pay to play the game. It's not a threat, it's a statement of purpose. BW solicited feedback from the community, and I gave it. Now you're here, trying to humiliate me and censor me. So much for your moralism.

Unless you're Bioware, you don't make the rules... they do. Don't like it, go play another game.

 

Punished *for what*? Using a lockout to enter a phase? Looting a chest? Point to a specific action I did that was wrong.

Denial of wrongdoing doesn't absolve one from guilt. You know that what you did was wrong. Please stop blaming others for your lack of judgement.