Official Deception/Infiltration feed back thread

[Evolixe]

I wouldn't spend a recklessness charge on crushing darkness. I wouldn't spend one at all from range. I merely said if I can do nothing else id rather cast crushing darkness than do nothing. By the time I get back to enemy force will be back up for the most part. But as I was trying to say earlier in this post this hardly ever happens to me. I don't think deception has a hard time being kited.

 

No, but if you HAVE recklessness.. Force Lightning is better by far.

[RaithHarth]

More burst. It's lacking with the incredments towards healing and health.

 

^This, plus give us some temporary protection from stun locking, I feel completely helpless when my white resolve bar is full and can't do a thing while damage is still being inflicted on me (yes the resolve bar is still completely useless at least for republic classes), sometimes we are referred to being squishy and die in a matter of seconds when ganked. I know we aren't tanks but I was thinking we should have something similar to what Sage's/Sorcerer's have with their bubble abilities, basically a temporarily immunity against damage, possibly using Tutaminis or Force Deflection as the temporary immunity against our attackers.

 

P.S.

 

I'm leaning more towards Force Deflection for Infiltration/Deception specs since Tutaminis is more like the Seer/Corruption bubble ability.

Edited January 16, 2015 by RaithHarth

[Aragost]

But who says you WANT a ww on said target at that time?

Its mostly a waste of resolve unless its actually meant as full duration control.

 

Like I said, maybe 2 out of 10 times you're rooted its the right thing to do.

[Xinika]

Buff Deception.

[Implyvern]

SUGGESTION:

 

give discharge an effect similar to chain shock/upheaval, with the chance increasing based on how many static charges the user has. something like 20-25% per charge maybe, so we have a pretty safe burst at 3 stacks?

 

also, give maul its 30% surge from induction back. nobody seems to have mentioned it, so im asking myself if people even read the full induction tooltip.

[Evolixe]

SUGGESTION:

 

give discharge an effect similar to chain shock/upheaval, with the chance increasing based on how many static charges the user has. something like 20-25% per charge maybe, so we have a pretty safe burst at 3 stacks?

 

also, give maul its 30% surge from induction back. nobody seems to have mentioned it, so im asking myself if people even read the full induction tooltip.

 

No point, Discharge is different for all specs.. so you might as well just give Discharge it's Surge back too.

[iesnbold]

They could make static charges stack up to 5 but the 4th and 5th charge would give less Discharge damage than the first 3 so it's not worth it to wait for 5 charges in PVE and would not impact our dps output there. Right now I think it's (taking 3 static charge discharge as reference here) :

- 1 static charge : 33% damage (of 3 charge discharge)

- 2 charges 66%

- 3 charges 100%

 

and it could be :

- 4 charges 120%

- 5 charges 140%

 

I would not give us more mobility given we have a lot of get out of jail free cards, but we need to actually f*** stuff up when we have the opportunity (that we setup ourselves). Maul might need to hit harder but I would rather rely on a buffed discharge than getting Impose Weakness back. It was good back when CD actually did damage but now hitting low slash to get a duplicity proc wouldn't feel smooth at all. As much as I loved back to back duplicity procs, tying it to low slash would not be a good idea.

Edited January 18, 2015 by iesnbold

[Evolixe]

5 Charges would take too long to build. And Deception is also lacking for PvE so having it do slightly more damage isn't a problem at all. Edited January 18, 2015 by Evolixe

[Aelanis]

They could make static charges stack up to 5 but the 4th and 5th charge would give less Discharge damage than the first 3 so it's not worth it to wait for 5 charges in PVE and would not impact our dps output there. Right now I think it's (taking 3 static charge discharge as reference here) :

- 1 static charge : 33% damage (of 3 charge discharge)

- 2 charges 66%

- 3 charges 100%

 

and it could be :

- 4 charges 120%

- 5 charges 140%

 

I would not give us more mobility given we have a lot of get out of jail free cards, but we need to actually f*** stuff up when we have the opportunity (that we setup ourselves). Maul might need to hit harder but I would rather rely on a buffed discharge than getting Impose Weakness back. It was good back when CD actually did damage but now hitting low slash to get a duplicity proc wouldn't feel smooth at all. As much as I loved back to back duplicity procs, tying it to low slash would not be a good idea.

 

What Evo said: you wouldn't want to wait the almost 18 seconds to build your 5 stacks in PvP. If you wanted to do this, you'd have to change Electric Ambush to give 5 stacks, and that would still increase damage in PvE, though not as drastically in PvP. It's also clunky, having the last two charges worth less than the first three. While I admit that it's a lot better than giving back the 20% Surge to Crackling Blasts, I think it's a little clunky and that it could be done in better ways.

[Saikochoro]

SUGGESTION:

 

give discharge an effect similar to chain shock/upheaval, with the chance increasing based on how many static charges the user has. something like 20-25% per charge maybe, so we have a pretty safe burst at 3 stacks?

 

also, give maul its 30% surge from induction back. nobody seems to have mentioned it, so im asking myself if people even read the full induction tooltip.

 

Maul still has 30% surge bonus. They moved it from induction to electric ambush.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Saikochoro

[Foslab]

^This, plus give us some temporary protection from stun locking, I feel completely helpless when my white resolve bar is full and can't do a thing while damage is still being inflicted on me (yes the resolve bar is still completely useless at least for republic classes),

 

WHAT, WHAT :eek: To me, this only says that you have not played any other class in the game or that you just do not know how to play shadow. Resolve bar completely useless at least for republic classes????? :confused: I guess you are trolling.

 

You can have 17 seconds of immunity to CC as an assassin. You can use phasewalk to escape a bad situation if you get stunlocked and don't have a breaker. If you have your breaker, you can use it and use your def CD or you can vanish. After vanishing, you can usually even go to a place where the enemy players cannot see you and you can exit combat and heal yourself. No other class can do this, except operative. It is ridiculous to argue that deception has "piss poor survivability". Deception and assassin overall has the best or the second best survivability in the game at the moment. Just because hatred has better survivability than deception does not mean that deception survivability needs to be buffed. It might make some sense to buff deception survivability ONLY IF marauders, mercs and snipers get their survivability buffed.

 

As far as burst goes, deception probably needs a small buff. But the fact that AP burst is crazy at the moment does not justify giving some stupid buff to deception. When it comes to kiting, deception is one of the harder dps specs to kite against, if it is played well. PT is very hard to kite against at the moment because of the fast hydraulic override and ranged dmg. But then again, PTs do not have CC immunity or immunity to all tech/force attacks for 5 seconds.

 

Overall deception damage is quite fine in PvP. If I compare it to marauder, deception can pretty much do the same numbers and often more, because it has more survivability, immunity and "anti-kiting" tools. Marauder only performs well if the enemy team has a lot of melee or facetanking (aka bad) ranged dps. Of course deception is bad compared to hatred. Every spec, except AP and sorc dps specs to some extent, are kind of bad compared to hatred at the moment.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Foslab

[stavrakas]

When it comes to kiting, deception is one of the harder dps specs to kite against, if it is played well.

 

Lol no, deception is very easy to kite against. It only has 1 slow and 1 root (if speced for it). Its slow has only 10m range (if I remember correctly) and right now almost every single class can break that slow with a movement skill. How exactly is it hard to kite against?

 

Overall deception damage is quite fine in PvP. If I compare it to marauder, deception can pretty much do the same numbers and often more, because it has more survivability, immunity and "anti-kiting" tools. Marauder only performs well if the enemy team has a lot of melee or facetanking (aka bad) ranged dps. Of course deception is bad compared to hatred. Every spec, except AP and sorc dps specs to some extent, are kind of bad compared to hatred at the moment.

 

So you're saying because deception is as useless as a marauder in pvp right now (maybe even more useless) it doesn't need a buff? No mate, both deception and marauders need a buff.

Edited January 20, 2015 by stavrakas

[Saikochoro]

Not saying deception couldnt use some help, but they aren't as useless as marauders.

[sithBracer]

Not saying deception couldnt use some help, but they aren't as useless as marauders.

 

Marauders are pretty much useless when they don't have a healer. With a pocket healer marauders can do some pretty good damage.

 

For marauders their burst really isn't the problem, their survivability is.

Edited January 20, 2015 by sithBracer

[Saikochoro]

Marauders are pretty much useless when they don't have a healer. With a pocket healer marauders can do some pretty good damage.

 

For marauders their burst really isn't the problem, their survivability is.

 

Agreed. They have plenty of damage. But they are prevented from doing it a lot of the time. Just saying marauders are more useless just for a different reason.

[sithBracer]

Agreed. They have plenty of damage. But they are prevented from doing it a lot of the time. Just saying marauders are more useless just for a different reason.

 

I agree when it is just a marauder alone. If he has a pocket healer he can be pretty useful. Deception assassins on the other hand ... well let me put it this way: I main 2 healers and if I have a choice of healing a marauder vs a deception assassin, I would hands down go with the marauder. Plus when I heal for good marauders they do a real good job helping me out of some messes with their AoE mezz, bloodthirst and predation (can't count how many times this saved me from being focused down).

 

It is 2 different playstyles of course, just marauders are much better in team play and definitely have a place in this meta (if and only if they have a good healer), deception I feel has no place as many classes can do anything we can do, only better.

[Saikochoro]

I agree when it is just a marauder alone. If he has a pocket healer he can be pretty useful. Deception assassins on the other hand ... well let me put it this way: I main 2 healers and if I have a choice of healing a marauder vs a deception assassin, I would hands down go with the marauder. Plus when I heal for good marauders they do a real good job helping me out of some messes with their AoE mezz, bloodthirst and predation (can't count how many times this saved me from being focused down).

 

It is 2 different playstyles of course, just marauders are much better in team play and definitely have a place in this meta (if and only if they have a good healer), deception I feel has no place as many classes can do anything we can do, only better.

 

I know the feeling. I play both sins and operatives extensively. Before 3.0 I often felt like you described in that second paragraph because deception did concealments job much better. Concealment could still get the job done of course...just not as good. Deception is kinda in that place now. It's frustrating because I still feel it just with a different class. My two favorite classes have occupied the same spot now. I know I can always spec hatred, but I enjoy deception more.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Saikochoro

[sithBracer]

I know the feeling. I play both sins and operatives extensively. Before 3.0 I often felt like you described in that second paragraph because deception did concealments job much better. Concealment could still get the job done of course...just not as good. Deception is kinda in that place now. It's frustrating because I still feel it just with a different class. My two favorite classes have occupied the same spot now. I know I can always spec hatred, but I enjoy deception more.

 

Well, thats the thing, concealment could still get the job done in 2.x. Deception can't in 3.x.

 

Look, I know you might feel like everything is ok when you see 10k mauls against a bunch of scrubs who run around in circles; I admit, it is fun and easy to kill them. But when you play against a good team with a decent healer, it is a completely different story.

 

First off, you pretend like you get 10k's every 2 seconds when in reality it is not even close to that often. I myself average around 8.5k on a procced maul crit (the highest I got last night was 9.7k), but I'm guessing it might be higher when min/maxed. Your crit change right now is at best going to be 30%. Combine that with the fact that you have to use it with the proc (without the proc the crit is around 6-7k and costs too much force). If you average it out, you should only crit once every 30 seconds-aside from that 1 auto-crit you get coming out of stealth, which against a good team is not much. Now lets also consider that you have to be properly positioned to make this attack and it is only in 4m range. Lets also consider the fact that maul misses as well. And lets finally just assume that the person you are playing against is not a complete moron who stands in one place and clicks. He moves around (preferably next to his team), he uses DCDs, he knocks you back, roots you, he might AoE taunt, stun or mezz. Considering all these things, how often do you honestly think, you will get that legendary 10k crit against a good team? Maybe once a minute. How hard is that to heal through for a healer in 3.x? Well, speaking as an undergeared op healer in PvE gear and only 1850 expertise... it is ridiculously easy; 2 GCDs and I'm done. And any fluff damage done by VS will be taken care of by kolto probes.

 

You really need to stop making scrubs the standard and see how this spec plays against decent teams. And I can tell you from my experience last night, it is absolutely horrible, on all fronts.

[Xinika]

Well, thats the thing, concealment could still get the job done in 2.x. Deception can't in 3.x.

 

Look, I know you might feel like everything is ok when you see 10k mauls against a bunch of scrubs who run around in circles; I admit, it is fun and easy to kill them. But when you play against a good team with a decent healer, it is a completely different story.

 

First off, you pretend like you get 10k's every 2 seconds when in reality it is not even close to that often. I myself average around 8.5k on a procced maul crit (the highest I got last night was 9.7k), but I'm guessing it might be higher when min/maxed. Your crit change right now is at best going to be 30%. Combine that with the fact that you have to use it with the proc (without the proc the crit is around 6-7k and costs too much force). If you average it out, you should only crit once every 30 seconds-aside from that 1 auto-crit you get coming out of stealth, which against a good team is not much. Now lets also consider that you have to be properly positioned to make this attack and it is only in 4m range. Lets also consider the fact that maul misses as well. And lets finally just assume that the person you are playing against is not a complete moron who stands in one place and clicks. He moves around (preferably next to his team), he uses DCDs, he knocks you back, roots you, he might AoE taunt, stun or mezz. Considering all these things, how often do you honestly think, you will get that legendary 10k crit against a good team? Maybe once a minute. How hard is that to heal through for a healer in 3.x? Well, speaking as an undergeared op healer in PvE gear and only 1850 expertise... it is ridiculously easy; 2 GCDs and I'm done. And any fluff damage done by VS will be taken care of by kolto probes.

 

You really need to stop making scrubs the standard and see how this spec plays against decent teams. And I can tell you from my experience last night, it is absolutely horrible, on all fronts.

This post is literally perfect and honestly, I don't have much to add.

 

I've seen many posts arguing that the spec is fine with experience from unorganized, pug or undergeared settings. While that may be some people's experience, (And honestly, who can't do that with any spec?) this is not the case against geared, half-brained people or in group ranked settings, aka the settings that actually matter. The spec's uselessness shines thoroughly against people who are on point and trying equally hard to win as you.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Xinika

[IInox]

I know the feeling. I play both sins and operatives extensively. Before 3.0 I often felt like you described in that second paragraph because deception did concealments job much better. Concealment could still get the job done of course...just not as good. Deception is kinda in that place now. It's frustrating because I still feel it just with a different class. My two favorite classes have occupied the same spot now. I know I can always spec hatred, but I enjoy deception more.

 

LoLwut? Ops actually are in a really good place. thanks god they dont have anymore their pre 3.0 burst..

[UrbanSaint]

I will happily take back the duplicity/infil tactics proc on low slash instead of the increased damage on Spinning Kick/Spike. If not that then have low slash proc SOMETHING, because I feel like low slash has lost its usefulness outside of pvp. PvP-wise low slash is nice on its own because of the quick stun but PvE-wise its pretty much useless since it doesn't proc anything and does less damage then pretty much every other ability I have, so having it proc something would be nice. Granted I don't plan on playing Infiltration for PvE in any "serious" content, but I think it could still use an improvement in that regard and I feel like Low Slash procing something again would be a nice QoL improvement for the (very few) people that may enjoy it in PvE. Maybe even have Low Slash proc a reduced cost and instant cast Mind Crush to help out our sustained dps .

[Saikochoro]

LoLwut? Ops actually are in a really good place. thanks god they dont have anymore their pre 3.0 burst..

 

I was stating pre 3.0 concealment ops were not in a good place. They are in a great place now. Concealments has moved on from the state it was in and deception has taken up residence in the unwanted house.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Saikochoro

[Saikochoro]

Well, thats the thing, concealment could still get the job done in 2.x. Deception can't in 3.x.

 

Look, I know you might feel like everything is ok when you see 10k mauls against a bunch of scrubs who run around in circles; I admit, it is fun and easy to kill them. But when you play against a good team with a decent healer, it is a completely different story.

 

First off, you pretend like you get 10k's every 2 seconds when in reality it is not even close to that often. I myself average around 8.5k on a procced maul crit (the highest I got last night was 9.7k), but I'm guessing it might be higher when min/maxed. Your crit change right now is at best going to be 30%. Combine that with the fact that you have to use it with the proc (without the proc the crit is around 6-7k and costs too much force). If you average it out, you should only crit once every 30 seconds-aside from that 1 auto-crit you get coming out of stealth, which against a good team is not much. Now lets also consider that you have to be properly positioned to make this attack and it is only in 4m range. Lets also consider the fact that maul misses as well. And lets finally just assume that the person you are playing against is not a complete moron who stands in one place and clicks. He moves around (preferably next to his team), he uses DCDs, he knocks you back, roots you, he might AoE taunt, stun or mezz. Considering all these things, how often do you honestly think, you will get that legendary 10k crit against a good team? Maybe once a minute. How hard is that to heal through for a healer in 3.x? Well, speaking as an undergeared op healer in PvE gear and only 1850 expertise... it is ridiculously easy; 2 GCDs and I'm done. And any fluff damage done by VS will be taken care of by kolto probes.

 

You really need to stop making scrubs the standard and see how this spec plays against decent teams. And I can tell you from my experience last night, it is absolutely horrible, on all fronts.

 

My statements are not supposed to indicate that deception is fine. It is to indicate that burst still exists from them. I'm sorry for making it seem like 10k hits happen every two seconds for me. They do not. They do happen often enough for me to say they can happen and are not freak crits. 10k is not the best burst. It still is a hard hit though. Deception could use some help. They could revert closer to they were in 2.10. I've advocsted that several times. I did not say deception is fine and dandy, nor do I think it is. People were just saying they have no burst and are absolute trash. I think that is an over statement. They are not in a good place right now. I haven't denied that. I do differ in my opinion of how bad they are though. Either way we agree they need some help. Let's leave it at that.

[IInox]

I was stating pre 3.0 concealment ops were not in a good place. They are in a great place now. Concealments has moved on from the state it was in and deception has taken up residence in the unwanted house.

 

ah okok that's better sp

[Xinika]

My statements are not supposed to indicate that deception is fine. It is to indicate that burst still exists from them. I'm sorry for making it seem like 10k hits happen every two seconds for me. They do not. They do happen often enough for me to say they can happen and are not freak crits. 10k is not the best burst. It still is a hard hit though. Deception could use some help. They could revert closer to they were in 2.10. I've advocsted that several times. I did not say deception is fine and dandy, nor do I think it is. People were just saying they have no burst and are absolute trash. I think that is an over statement. They are not in a good place right now. I haven't denied that. I do differ in my opinion of how bad they are though. Either way we agree they need some help. Let's leave it at that.

Also a fair and reasonable post!