Why Are Dye Modules Destroyed Upon Removal?

[ivanhedgehog]

Dev reason: sell more dye

Apologist reason: you can't move dye from one item of clothing to another IRL either.

 

I left a red shirt in with my socks...I sure did move that dye :eek:

[ivanhedgehog]

^^ This. Besides, its not 'real' money, unless you are buying cartel coins to purchase dyes. If you are, that is your choice. Of course, you could always just craft your own if you don't want to pony up credits and you have the patience.

 

where can I learn the white/white dye? please let us know.

[Brewski]

I left a red shirt in with my socks...I sure did move that dye :eek:

 

No, you just activated the real life "Unify Color to Chest Piece" feature.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Brewski

[ivanhedgehog]

Well that would kill my economy since I craft Black/Red dyes.

 

But I'm sure you don't care about my ways of making money in the game as long as you get stuff for free, amirite?

 

 

mmmm, I hate to say it, but yes. I dont care. Its nothing against you but i took a survey and the answer was overwhelmingly "dont care"

 

 

ps: the next person to use "entitlement" in this thread will have a rabid wombat shoved in their underpants. Have a nice day

[ivanhedgehog]

If I sew a new button onto my jacket, I can remove it with a pair of scissors and use it on another jacket.

 

If, however, I take that jacket and dye it purple, I don't have the option to wring the jacket out three months later and retrieve the dye I used so that I can dye another jacket purple instead.

 

Real world enough for you?

 

Seriously, though, dyes are a cosmetic money sink. No reason to change the behavior, as every game needs money sink, and at least this one is cosmetic only.

 

you stand there while I shoot a plasma bolt through your chest. now go to a convenience store and pay them to fix it.(and you) lets see how that works out for ya.

[Tolunart]

Then maybe stop listing the lack of "Real World Logic" as a reason to support your argument? (Although rereading your post now, I'm wondering if your own use of the phrase was being sarcastic as well? This may just be a case of misunderstanding the context.)

 

I'm not the OP, I'm not even making an argument, just commenting on the discussion. The sole reason for anything in the game being as it is: it was designed that way. The entire environment is under BW's control, and saying "well you can't pull the dye out your shirt IRL" justifies their choices is simple nonsense.

 

For example, the comic miniseries/graphic novel Watchmen takes place in a setting that is 99.9% "the real world" with a few deviations:

 

1: Dr. Manhattan, a scientist who was killed in an accident involving a nuclear reactor or somesuch. He died and his body was disintegrated, but he *put himself back together* through sheer force of will and became a near-omnipotent being who can see through time, teleport through space, rearrange the molecules of objects, make people explode just by thinking about it...

 

2: A genetically engineered psychic mutant "alien" that is part of the villains plot to stop the US/Soviets from bombing the world into oblivion. The creature is teleported into NY using technology developed by Dr. M where it dies and the psychic backlash kills everyone in the city.

 

3: Rorschach, a crazy "costumed vigilante" who wears a mask made of special cloth with a constantly shifting black and white pattern. Somehow, the pattern is always symmetrical, the right/left sides of his face looking like a "Rorschach Test" ink blot... wait a minute!

 

In the real world, cloth doesn't do that! Godlike beings with magical powers, sure... alien/mutant killing people with psychic powers, sure, but magical clothing? That I just can't accept...

 

Who would say that? It's a minor plot point that exists just because it's cool and has no effect on the story. Similarly, the way the dye modules work have no connection to the real world, they were added to the game because players wanted to look cool and this was the decision the devs made. There doesn't need to be a "real world" justification for it, and there is none.

 

You could just as easily say that the dye module creates a field that interacts with the material and changes its color, pull out the mod and it stops changing the color. Then you can put the same mod into another item to change its color, and put a new mod into the old item to give it a new color. The only reason why you can't do this is not because it doesn't happen in the real world, but because the devs said "no."

[wilsonstone]

I'm not the OP, I'm not even making an argument, just commenting on the discussion. The sole reason for anything in the game being as it is: it was designed that way. The entire environment is under BW's control, and saying "well you can't pull the dye out your shirt IRL" justifies their choices is simple nonsense.

 

For example, the comic miniseries/graphic novel Watchmen takes place in a setting that is 99.9% "the real world" with a few deviations:

 

1: Dr. Manhattan, a scientist who was killed in an accident involving a nuclear reactor or somesuch. He died and his body was disintegrated, but he *put himself back together* through sheer force of will and became a near-omnipotent being who can see through time, teleport through space, rearrange the molecules of objects, make people explode just by thinking about it...

 

2: A genetically engineered psychic mutant "alien" that is part of the villains plot to stop the US/Soviets from bombing the world into oblivion. The creature is teleported into NY using technology developed by Dr. M where it dies and the psychic backlash kills everyone in the city.

 

3: Rorschach, a crazy "costumed vigilante" who wears a mask made of special cloth with a constantly shifting black and white pattern. Somehow, the pattern is always symmetrical, the right/left sides of his face looking like a "Rorschach Test" ink blot... wait a minute!

 

In the real world, cloth doesn't do that! Godlike beings with magical powers, sure... alien/mutant killing people with psychic powers, sure, but magical clothing? That I just can't accept...

 

Who would say that? It's a minor plot point that exists just because it's cool and has no effect on the story. Similarly, the way the dye modules work have no connection to the real world, they were added to the game because players wanted to look cool and this was the decision the devs made. There doesn't need to be a "real world" justification for it, and there is none.

 

You could just as easily say that the dye module creates a field that interacts with the material and changes its color, pull out the mod and it stops changing the color. Then you can put the same mod into another item to change its color, and put a new mod into the old item to give it a new color. The only reason why you can't do this is not because it doesn't happen in the real world, but because the devs said "no."

 

Good post. The whole comparison to plasma beams and buttons and whatnot is pretty silly IMHO. It has nothing to do with the game mechanics because its not the "real world".

 

The dyes didn't even exist at launch. They're purely cosmetic. You could level characters on every server in every slot to max without using them and wouldn't affect gameplay one bit. If you want to change the colors of your characters outfit and have to remove and thus destroy one dye pack BIG DEAL. You can always get another through the means I mentioned earlier....and guess what...it won't cost anything in 'real money' unless you buy cartel coins to do it. (calling it a money sink doesn't make sense to me either. You don't have to pay for them, you don't need them. You may want them but they aren't something you absolutely need to have....and no one is forcing anyone to buy cartel coins).

 

Next thing you know people will be wanting to get free armoring upgrades and starship parts without spending in game credits.

[Anzel]

Hi. I pay money to play this game. Real money. Actual money that comes out of my actual bank account. Removing virtual colors from my armor should cost me nothing. Not in game credits. Not Cartel Coins. Not Fairy Gold. Nothing.

[Drockter]

Hi. I pay money to play this game. Real money. Actual money that comes out of my actual bank account. Removing virtual colors from my armor should cost me nothing. Not in game credits. Not Cartel Coins. Not Fairy Gold. Nothing.

 

Same argument can be made for any item in game. Or any game with a CM equivalent and a subscription plan... but here, like there... the argument is invalidated by the first person to buy from the CM.

 

Lets also be honest with ourselves... Subscriptions do not keep this game afloat. Microtransactions have a lot to do with it (by some estimates, more so than the subscriptions).

[Andryah]

Hi. I pay money to play this game. Real money. Actual money that comes out of my actual bank account. Removing virtual colors from my armor should cost me nothing. Not in game credits. Not Cartel Coins. Not Fairy Gold. Nothing.

 

It does in fact cost you nothing. Color removal is free... just rip em out.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Andryah

[Anzel]

Same argument can be made for any item in game. Or any game with a CM equivalent and a subscription plan... but here, like there... the argument is invalidated by the first person to buy from the CM.

 

Lets also be honest with ourselves... Subscriptions do not keep this game afloat. Microtransactions have a lot to do with it (by some estimates, more so than the subscriptions).

 

The F2P model was supposed to be a way to have 2 classes of players. Subscribers and F2Pers. F2Pers could play for free and anything additional they wanted could be purchased with "micro-transactions".

 

EA in their infinite and bottomless greed extended that concept to subscribers and decided that EVERYTHING is now "extra" and whether you subscribe or not they were going to suck more and more and more money out of both the F2Pers AND the subscribers.

 

What amazes me is that they have some of you fooled into thinking this is OK. It's NOT OK. If you paid for the game, paid for the xpacs and you pay for the subscription you have paid enough. I have no idea why people are falling for this "everything is now extra and we need more of you money to keep the game running' routine.

[Andryah]

The F2P model was supposed to be a way to have 2 classes of players. Subscribers and F2Pers. F2Pers could play for free and anything additional they wanted could be purchased with "micro-transactions".

 

EA in their infinite and bottomless greed extended that concept to subscribers and decided that EVERYTHING is now "extra" and whether you subscribe or not they were going to suck more and more and more money out of both the F2Pers AND the subscribers.

 

What amazes me is that they have some of you fooled into thinking this is OK. It's NOT OK. If you paid for the game, paid for the xpacs and you pay for the subscription you have paid enough. I have no idea why people are falling for this "everything is now extra and we need more of you money to keep the game running' routine.

 

You are hilarious.

 

What exactly are you required to purchase for additional real life money in this game? Name one thing.. AND prove that the only way you can get it is to pay real life money.

 

AND.. please walk your talk.. go play preferred and then come back and tell us how you had exactly the same access to the game as you had as a sub. Hint: begin with the credit cap.. and progress from there.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Andryah

[Tsillah]

I agree on the first part, but how is it a credit sink?

The credits go from one player to another. They don't dissapear (except for the sales tax, which is nominal)

 

The tax charged by the GTN should not be underestimated. The whole point is to divide credit sinks into small parts so they don't stand out so much.

 

I sold an item for 2.8 million and the tax was somewhere near 150K if I remember right. It's cleary not just dyes but everything that's sold via the GTN. It does add up altogether. Little things like having to pay 2800 credits for going to Rishi or opting to spend 200k per character to go there for the Ravagers for example. It's all a little here and a little there. The more items pass through the GTN the better it is in essence.

[Drockter]

EA in their infinite and bottomless greed extended that concept to subscribers and decided that EVERYTHING is now "extra" and whether you subscribe or not they were going to suck more and more and more money out of both the F2Pers AND the subscribers.

 

What amazes me is that they have some of you fooled into thinking this is OK. It's NOT OK. If you paid for the game, paid for the xpacs and you pay for the subscription you have paid enough. I have no idea why people are falling for this "everything is now extra and we need more of you money to keep the game running' routine.

 

First, EA didn't come up with this concept. I am no fool... not by a long shot. Don't equate my understanding of the situation with my approval of it.

 

Companies/Corporations have 1 purpose... to make money... money for investors. They will use whatever means (legal, and sometimes illegal (not in this case here) to maximize profit. The real people that EA/BW work to please have probably never heard of SWTOR outside of some reports, much less have actually played it.

 

They are not in the business to "break-even" and make sure that just the expenses are covered. They are there to make a profit... and as big of a profit as they can. In a very real sense there are financial people (not devs mind you) whose sole job is to figure out what the market (us) will bare in terms of costs. If people are buying them (and judging by the number of people running around in black/black, white/white, at $20 a pop... yeah, people are buying. Then guess what... they will charge for them. Welcome to Capitalism. You and I may not like it... but that's what it is.

 

Edit: On this point we agree

whether you subscribe or not they were going to suck more and more and more money out of both the F2Pers AND the subscribers.

 

But my question becomes... why are you even surprised by this...

 

However, it is a fact that this game (and others that have taken the same approach) were in trouble... and needed to the microtransaction F2P crowd to shore up the finances.

 

Simple as that... they can charge for it, and will charge for it as long as we are buying it.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Drockter

[wilsonstone]

Hi. I pay money to play this game. Real money. Actual money that comes out of my actual bank account. Removing virtual colors from my armor should cost me nothing. Not in game credits. Not Cartel Coins. Not Fairy Gold. Nothing.

 

Congratulations. You have a bank account. So do I and probably every else in this thread. My real world money pays for my sub, just as yours does. But I don't need my real world money to purchase a dye pack from the GTN or the CM. (unless I purchase CC to do it, but if you have a sub you get a few hundred coins a month...and color packs are only 200 CC). Which isn't real money. Its play money. It's pretend money. It's quatloos and fairy dust. Besides what else are you gonna spend it on?

 

Paying for a sub gives you access to the game and some perks. If you want to change the color pack you have on a characters armor the old one is destroyed. That's simply the way it works, and its not even worth changing.

There's no good reason to have reusable dye packs for something you don't need to play the game and a few good reasons for them not be reusable. The only reason I'm seeing in this thread is simply "I want it but I don't want to spend pretend money on it". That's not a very good reason. It's sort of an entitled, selfish reason, but not a good one.

[wilsonstone]

First, EA didn't come up with this concept. I am no fool... not by a long shot. Don't equate my understanding of the situation with my approval of it.

 

Companies/Corporations have 1 purpose... to make money... money for investors. They will use whatever means (legal, and sometimes illegal (not in this case here) to maximize profit. The real people that EA/BW work to please have probably never heard of SWTOR outside of some reports, much less have actually played it.

 

They are not in the business to "break-even" and make sure that just the expenses are covered. They are there to make a profit... and as big of a profit as they can. In a very real sense there are financial people (not devs mind you) whose sole job is to figure out what the market (us) will bare in terms of costs. If people are buying them (and judging by the number of people running around in black/black, white/white, at $20 a pop... yeah, people are buying. Then guess what... they will charge for them. Welcome to Capitalism. You and I may not like it... but that's what it is.

.

 

Some people forget that EA/Bioware is a business, I think. Of course they need to make a profit....and its not like they're picking anyone's pocket. If a player feels the product isn't worth the cost they can't just not buy it/sub for it. It bugs me a little bit when people rant about EA/Bioware being greedy because they're not charging anything but the sub fee to play the game. Everything else is cosmetic and vanity driven and available on the GTN for credits.

 

...and if I were doing business with a company that I claimed was ripping me off....especially over a game...I'd stop paying 'em and quit. I can find other ways to spend my time for less money.

 

But the color/ dye thing is a new level. By the logic of "I pay for a sub so I should have reusable dyes" I could say I should get reusable med packs instead of having to pay "pretend" money for 'em". Even though within the game's own mechanics I can learn to craft them if I don't want to spend credits. Kee-rist, you no longer have to pay for skills when you level.

[Brewski]

I agree on the first part, but how is it a credit sink?

The credits go from one player to another. They don't dissapear (except for the sales tax, which is nominal)

In addition to GTN service charges, some dyes are purchasable for credits from vendors, and crafted dyes remove a certain number of credits as well, as many people just run missions for the components.

 

So not a huge credit sink, but it does remove credits from the game. Admittedly, though, dyes are primarily a revenue generator. Random packs and dye sales for cash generate a decent amount of revenue for them, I would be willing to bet.

 

The problem with credit sinks in general is that they are always annoying to users, and also always needed to keep a game economy balanced. So when you plan your money sinks, you always want to balance them in such a way that people don't get too annoyed when they pay them. It's a hard job I'm sure, and one I'm glad I don't have to do.

[SammuelSK]

Because money.

 

There is no other reason, it makes them money because people are dumb enough to buy it.

[wilsonstone]

Because money.

 

There is no other reason, it makes them money because people are dumb enough to buy it.

 

But removing a dye color doesn't cost anything. It is simply gone. If it is removed because it was replaced with another module then you wanted to get rid of it on that character. If you want the module colors on from the destroyed mod on another character you have to buy another mod. In credits. Not real money. So it is not "making them money" unless you are willing to pay the cost in real currency to buy cartel coins.

 

The only one making money from selling dyes on the GTN are the crafters and sellers....and its not real money. But it would cost real money to change it and that would be a waste of it.

[WorldSmasher]

Hey,

 

So... Why Are Dye Modules Destroyed Upon Removal?

 

It's probably already been pointed out, but have you tried removing the color from an old set of clothes and putting that color into a jar for later use? No? Why not? Is it, because it can't be done?

 

Then maybe, that's why EA/BW decided to make clothing dyes, in-game, be something that you can't get back after you've used it.

[calypsissmexy]

I think the anti-consumable people have a very narrow entitled view of this.

 

The dye's rarity and single use nature is not just about money. It enhances gameplay by making them something worth seeking out and using carefully. If they could just be slopped from one piece of gear to another they would not have the value they have and would therefore be less coveted. And as any raider knows, finally getting something you value in game is a major part of the experience.

 

Some of you have convinced yourselves that reusing the dyes you buy is a fundamental subscriber right. It's not. And it's silly to think it is. And I see it over and over about so many aspects of gameplay. I'm a sub, just gimme the thing for free. If all these requests were filled, there would be no game. Nothing would have value. There would be no point in doing anyhing because there would be no gameplay involved.

 

Just because you sub doesn't make you a little god who gets to have whatever they want without having to play the game. What a **** game it would be if these constant freebie requests were granted en masse.

[ZETA_SCORPII]

Hey,

 

So... I was dismayed and perplexed to discover that for some reason when you remove a dye module from a piece of clothing instead of placing it back in your inventory apparently Bioware made the curious choice to force you to destroy it instead. I don't know why you can't switch out "looks" for your character from the dye's you've accumulated (as in GW2) but am curious if anybody out there has any idea as to what their rationale might be.

 

Because BioWare makes a lot of money using this exploit

[EnkiduNineEight]

Unfortunately, they have made dying armor mandatory.

 

Not even remotely true.

[OddballEasyEight]

Unfortunately, they have made dying armor mandatory.

 

Really?

 

I wasn't aware!

 

I have so many outfits that aren't dyed!

 

What in-game benefits am I missing out on?

 

Do they give any stats bonuses?

 

Oh dear, I'm really worried now!

 

[Grayseven]

I think the anti-consumable people have a very narrow entitled view of this.

 

The dye's rarity and single use nature is not just about money. It enhances gameplay by making them something worth seeking out and using carefully. If they could just be slopped from one piece of gear to another they would not have the value they have and would therefore be less coveted. And as any raider knows, finally getting something you value in game is a major part of the experience.

 

Some of you have convinced yourselves that reusing the dyes you buy is a fundamental subscriber right. It's not. And it's silly to think it is. And I see it over and over about so many aspects of gameplay. I'm a sub, just gimme the thing for free. If all these requests were filled, there would be no game. Nothing would have value. There would be no point in doing anyhing because there would be no gameplay involved.

 

Just because you sub doesn't make you a little god who gets to have whatever they want without having to play the game. What a **** game it would be if these constant freebie requests were granted en masse.

 

You make a point, but it is woefully incorrect and based on false assumptions..

 

Yes, rarity does encourage players to seek out and attempt to achieve...but not when that rarity is caused entirely by a real cash cost.

 

Were the "rare" dyes something you worked towards in game, you'd have a point but the truth is the rarity of things like the Black/black and White/white dyes have nothing to do with "working or striving towards". They are either 20 USD direct or a RNG roll from a dye crate also purchased via real cash.

 

Dyes and other cosmetic items do not "enhance game play". They have zero effect on game play. Not once will you find a progression raiding group require its members to have a White/white dye. They have only a psychological effect on an individual player.

 

The dyes should not be reusable, but neither should they be rare only because they are cost gated. Players who can fully customize a character will tend to feel more invested in that character, leading to more playing. Gating that customization through RNG and high cash costs won't earn as much real cash as making the cost more accessible and removing the RNG from the system.

 

The dye system already has zero gameplay involved as it is a cash transaction, so claiming that changing the system will remove gameplay actions is ludicrous. Claiming that dye rarity creates incentive to strive to a goal in game is also ridiculous since the CM is completely outside of game play.

 

You might be able to make a case that other people paying 20 USD for a dye and placing it on the GTN for 3 million credits creates a game play incentive for players to earn those credits, but that's completely artificial as well. It is simply an example of someone with disposable income taking the easy route to earn credits from someone who doesn't.

 

You can't use the "hurts game play" or "creates incentive to play" arguments from a cash shop purchased item that by its very existence hurts game play and does nothing to coerce a player into playing the game.