A request to ace pilots

[Linuxizer]

First response, what do you think the tiers of aces are in your opinion? I'm just curious because it seems that everybody has a different opinion on what constitutes an ace.

 

Second response, I stopped having two factions on the same server recently due to how much flaming I've received doing it. Sure I know I shouldn't listen to the trolls, but when the entire GSF chat on a faction just wants to hold a pity party against me then I refuse to play with them.

 

"Super-ace" was coined by the OP. I'll let the OP define it.

 

We should try to define average-ness instead. Supposed the average score of 8v8 TDM is 32:32 and 12v12 TDM is 48:48. Then a pilot who averages 4 kills and 4 deaths per match is... average. Newer pilots should aim for >= 4kills and <= 4 deaths per match as a first goal. And try to be useful in Domination.

 

Shame to hear about the flaming. Flaming is another sign of... below-average-ness.

[tommmsunb]

Shame to hear about the flaming. Flaming is another sign of... below-average-ness.

 

Unfortunately the flamers were typically the already well established "aces". (I put in quotations because I didn't agree with calling them that after their behavior and their general skill level.)

[TheGreatSatan]

How about swapping to a Mastered T1 or T2 strike .

 

I'm actually pretty deadly in a Quell. I've pulled plenty of 20-25 kill matches with one. It was the second ship I mastered ^_~.

 

Not overly fond of the Rycer. Also, I think it's silly looking.

[Wraloa_Craubo]

As one of those 15+ - 0 people, I've already started giving myself a 1 respawn minimum handicap. On Team Domination maps, I'll usually go bomber and take the outer satellite at A or C. If I die, which still doesn't happen unless the other team actually has their act together, then I'll allow myself to go Scout or Missile Boat, but for Capture games, I usually bomber.

 

Team Deathmatch I'll typically start with a ship I'm working on maxing, which is currently the T2 Strike Fighter, again, after one or two respawns, I'll allow myself to switch over to my main.

 

 

People are doing it to try to keep the matches balanced, just not everyone.

[ptwonline]

On Shadowlands when the Imp aces tend to queue together so much it leads to a few problems:

 

1. The other Imp teams at the same time or at other times of day tend to be very noobish because so many of the good pilots on that side queue together. So the Imp have-nots get seriously outclassed instead of having an experienced pilot or two as anchors. it's so weird facing 8 players with 5-ships one match and losing 50-10, and then 8 players with 20 ships combined the next match and winning 50-10.

 

2. More expeienced Pub pilots don't queue as much when the good Imp teams are doing their thing. This means the Pub side is often noob-heavy when facing the Imp best. It also means that other times of day tends to be Pub Ace-heavy when Imp side is noobish. Result: most matches are blowouts one way or another.

 

3. Because the Pub side gets rolled so hard when the Imp Aces are on, they return the favor (or try to repair their records or something) and are absolutely merciless when they finally face a weaker team.

 

Basically, the dominance of the Imp Ace teams ruins GSF for pretty much the whole server except those in that team.

[Danalon]

Basically, the dominance of the Imp Ace teams ruins GSF for pretty much the whole server except those in that team.

It's not the aces' fault when other pilots are to lazy to learn basics or put in some effort.

 

In my experience the lack of good pilots leads to bomber and/or gunship spam. Most pilots lack the skill and situational awareness to engange bombers or gunships. Flying a bomber against inexperienced pilots is a free win and flying a gunship becomes so much easier if no one is coming after you. Don't get me wrong; I don't complain about bombers or gunships being to strong per se. I just want to point out those ships are the nemesis of any inexperienced pilot and stacking them against low- to mid-skilled pilots makes them almost invincible without having to put much effort into it.

Edited January 5, 2015 by Danalon

[Fractalsponge]

I'll preface this post by saying I'm not going after you specifically, but some of the notions being referenced here that annoy me whenever I see them.

 

On Shadowlands when the Imp aces tend to queue together so much it leads to a few problems:

 

1. The other Imp teams at the same time or at other times of day tend to be very noobish because so many of the good pilots on that side queue together. So the Imp have-nots get seriously outclassed instead of having an experienced pilot or two as anchors. it's so weird facing 8 players with 5-ships one match and losing 50-10, and then 8 players with 20 ships combined the next match and winning 50-10.

 

This has been a problem since 2.5. The pub side, on average, is much better than the imp side, for whatever reason. The best imp players are going to be playing when they can be playing. It's not like telling us to stop queuing together is suddenly going to result us in being around 24/7 in small numbers to serve as "anchors." And if anyone thinks we don't pull off monstrous carries for the bad teams we play with when solo queuing, they really haven't played enough.

 

2. More expeienced Pub pilots don't queue as much when the good Imp teams are doing their thing. This means the Pub side is often noob-heavy when facing the Imp best. It also means that other times of day tends to be Pub Ace-heavy when Imp side is noobish. Result: most matches are blowouts one way or another.

 

What the **** is the problem with the experienced pub pilots then? If I get rolled by someone, you think I come to the forums to QQ about it? Get better, group up, start winning. A history lesson for those people who might not know much about Shadowlands (since not many of us post here). The imp team that has started up formed because all of us were tired of losing so many matches because the imp side was so noob heavy. There were several pub premades at this time that queued all the time. There were no comparable teams impside to match them, so they rolled matches. And this was domination, which is the least noob friendly format imaginable. Finally, enough of us realized we were doing it wrong by solo-queuing against these groups, and starting running together when we were on. What happened? Those pub teams lost. Hard. We improved our play by playing together, so even solo we were getting good results again. Some of those old pubs stopped playing, others transferred servers and still whine about us, rather than doing what we did - up their game.

 

PVP is not a damn charity benefit. Improve yourself, get friends, have fun. Don't gloat when you win, and lose with grace.

Edited January 5, 2015 by Fractalsponge

[JadenYugari]

................

PVP is not a damn charity benefit. Improve yourself, get friends, have fun. Don't gloat when you win, and lose with grace.

Or, you know, they can just quit GSF and never touch it again, leading to it being a "ghost town", where the same few players will sit in a 30min queues and keep farming each other to oblivion.

[tommmsunb]

Or, you know, they can just quit GSF and never touch it again, leading to it being a "ghost town", where the same few players will sit in a 30min queues and keep farming each other to oblivion.

 

It's not our responsibilities as players to populate the game. That's the responsibility of the company that's selling the game.

[SammyGStatus]

Or, you know, they can just quit GSF and never touch it again, leading to it being a "ghost town", where the same few players will sit in a 30min queues and keep farming each other to oblivion.

 

I'd rather the game die than force myself to handicap... myself. That's a game I wouldn't bother playing to begin with, and PVP isn't about being a care bear. You want to get good? Do what we did - suck it up, practice, get a few 1000 games under the belt, and win. If they're willing to quit before they learn the game, then they can't qq for the same reason I don't ground-PVP and ask people to take it easy on me

[Mintas]

I'm not sure where to start with this thread. There is one simple rule when I fly, red = dead. I have flown against great pilots and newbs, imps, and pubs, friends and strangers. This is a PvP game, plain and simple. Learn from your mistakes and take care of business the next time.

 

For the person complaining about pubside GSF on Shadowlands you should really do your homework. Pubs rofl stomped GSF for a long time. I know I am one of them. I play on both sides now, both solo que and in a premade. Up your game, make some friends, and create a premade of your own.

[JadenYugari]

I'd rather the game die than force myself to handicap... myself. That's a game I wouldn't bother playing to begin with, and PVP isn't about being a care bear. You want to get good? Do what we did - suck it up, practice, get a few 1000 games under the belt, and win. If they're willing to quit before they learn the game, then they can't qq for the same reason I don't ground-PVP and ask people to take it easy on me

 

Im not QQ-ing. I play GSF even if I get rolled over hard, but I can understand why players just play a few matches, then say they just dont want to be farmed over and over and go back to do "regular" stuff essentialy wiping out GSF out of their mind.

 

The biggest issue with GSF in my opinion is, that skill gap can destroy games completely. Even rankeds dont suffer as much if one side has an "ace player". GSF should be designed in a way, where even if your skill is literaly off the charts you still can get rolled over. Once your skill level reaches certain limit it should simply stop making any differencies (basicaly a half of parabola graph).

[Armonddd]

I'd rather the game die than force myself to handicap... myself. That's a game I wouldn't bother playing to begin with, and PVP isn't about being a care bear. You want to get good? Do what we did - suck it up, practice, get a few 1000 games under the belt, and win. If they're willing to quit before they learn the game, then they can't qq for the same reason I don't ground-PVP and ask people to take it easy on me

 

Listen to yourself. "You lost because of circumstances completely outside your control as a new player, and had a very bad experience because of it? Well, suck it up and go play a few thousand games so it gets better."

 

That's just not reasonable.

[eedwana]

Listen to yourself. "You lost because of circumstances completely outside your control as a new player, and had a very bad experience because of it? Well, suck it up and go play a few thousand games so it gets better."

 

That's just not reasonable.

 

How is asking someone to play the game as it is not reasonable?

[Mintas]

How is asking someone to play the game as it is not reasonable?

 

So much this. How the heck do you think Aces got where they are. Last time I check skill boosts were not offered on the Cartel Market.

[SammyGStatus]

Listen to yourself. "You lost because of circumstances completely outside your control as a new player, and had a very bad experience because of it? Well, suck it up and go play a few thousand games so it gets better."

 

That's just not reasonable.

 

The circumstance out of their control is their opposition's play time. The circumstance in their control is playing the game. You can't play only a few games and be Ace level, and if your first reaction is to quit, it's not reasonable to think that person wants to PVP but doesn't want to put in the work.

 

Where are the posts asking for tutored help? Where are the videos of them showing how they fly to critique them? If the most commitment to learning how to play is giving up, then they aren't going to play the game.

 

If they don't want to face aces, form a 16 man premade and simul-questions with other noobs. Other than that, petition BW to cross-server pool and add ranked. Other than that, learning to play is the only way to improve.

 

I used to have to solo face Alex in Tsukuyomi on JM back in the ion glitch days. Every time it was them vs me, I got beat, but I stuck around and now am a better player for it.

 

The alternative to playing vs aces shouldn't be to have Aces go easy. BW is the only one who can fix their game.

[tommmsunb]

I used to have to solo face Alex in Tsukuyomi on JM back in the ion glitch days. Every time it was them vs me, I got beat, but I stuck around and now am a better player for it.

 

I used to have to solo face 4 of those monkeys, Fuse, Tsukuyomi, Alex and Leggogurl, all ion love-tapping me. To the point where i develloped the RUN INTO THE ASTEROID strat so that I could actually play the game. And I stuck around.

[SammyGStatus]

I used to have to solo face 4 of those monkeys, Fuse, Tsukuyomi, Alex and Leggogurl, all ion love-tapping me. To the point where i develloped the RUN INTO THE ASTEROID strat so that I could actually play the game. And I stuck around.

 

Good times

[Linuxizer]

I was in a match that ended something like 45:15. That was a tedious 14 minutes that could have taken 7 minutes instead. The enemy team was stronger and had a good gunship/bomber ball set up. Fine. But either they were being "nice" to us, or they were trying to pad their career kill:death ratio. They were so careful and just waited for us to run into their trap, instead of flying and fighting us. Our team was not good enough to do much damage but not bad enough to die so quickly either. They were just delaying the inevitable and not making it any more fun for us.

 

So, uneven matches are definitely a problem, but telling the stronger team to hold back is not a real solution.

[Verain]

Well, suck it up and go play a few thousand games so it gets better."

 

That's just not reasonable.

 

But playing the few thousand games is how the good pilots got that way.

 

By the way, your core argument- which I rarely see- is that there's a massive gulf in skill difference, and it's not surmountable without the same amount of practice you give to ANY game- is pretty reasonable. But the conclusion reached by the OP is not.

[Armonddd]

But playing the few thousand games is how the good pilots got that way.

 

By the way, your core argument- which I rarely see- is that there's a massive gulf in skill difference, and it's not surmountable without the same amount of practice you give to ANY game- is pretty reasonable. But the conclusion reached by the OP is not.

 

Good job pretending you know what my core argument is. No, I'm not talking about how good new players should or should not be -- I'm talking about how fun the game should be for them.

 

Remember the last wall of text I threw at you? The one where I called you an awful game designer because you have no concept of designing for a target audience/market? The same thing applies here. Only a very, very small portion of SWTOR players want to play GSF for a few thousand matches before it becomes fun. That was my protest against Sammy -- not some drivel about how "the good players got good after a few thousand games, but new players shouldn't have to". (Fortunately, it only takes a few hundred games for one to become an ace, not a few thousand.)

 

My core argument has nothing to do with the skill gulf. My core argument is that the game should be fun for the players. I'm pretty sure that even you will agree with that. 50-0 and 1000-0 matches aren't fun for either side, unless you happen to get a world record out of it. Even then, in my experience and the experience of others I've flown with, a close match is a lot more fun. It's really to my benefit to fly my crappy ships against new players as much as it is to theirs.

 

Maybe you disagree. Maybe for some reason you have fun clearing out hostiles that can't even be called opposition. Maybe you don't enjoy trying different builds for the sake of it (when was the last time you tried out a Remote Slicing Clarion, for example?).

 

Even if you do, it is ludicrous to expect people who are angry and frustrated by a poor play experience to play literally thousands of matches before they start enjoying themselves, as Sammy was suggesting.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Armonddd

[Ryuku-sama]

Good job pretending you know what my core argument is. No, I'm not talking about how good new players should or should not be -- I'm talking about how fun the game should be for them.

 

Remember the last wall of text I threw at you? The one where I called you an awful game designer because you have no concept of designing for a target audience/market? The same thing applies here. Only a very, very small portion of SWTOR players want to play GSF for a few thousand matches before it becomes fun. That was my protest against Sammy -- not some drivel about how "the good players got good after a few thousand games, but new players shouldn't have to". (Fortunately, it only takes a few hundred games for one to become an ace, not a few thousand.)

 

My core argument has nothing to do with the skill gulf. My core argument is that the game should be fun for the players. I'm pretty sure that even you will agree with that. 50-0 and 1000-0 matches aren't fun for either side, unless you happen to get a world record out of it. Even then, in my experience and the experience of others I've flown with, a close match is a lot more fun. It's really to my benefit to fly my crappy ships against new players as much as it is to theirs.

 

Maybe you disagree. Maybe for some reason you have fun clearing out hostiles that can't even be called opposition. Maybe you don't enjoy trying different builds for the sake of it (when was the last time you tried out a Remote Slicing Clarion, for example?).

 

Even if you do, it is ludicrous to expect people who are angry and frustrated by a poor play experience to play literally thousands of matches before they start enjoying themselves, as Sammy was suggesting.

 

Find any PvP games where you don,t have to play hundreds of matches to become decent.

 

Even in ground PvP, the amount of Jugg, Sin, PT that don,t know how to taunt is amazing. The amount of Merc and Sniper just standing around not kiting the Jugg in their faces is astonishing. The amount of Sorc that die in 3 hits cause they don,t know what they are doing is incredible.

 

Playing hundreds-thousands of matches to get good, reading about it and doing your homework is needed in every single game.. PvP or PvE.

[Lendul]

I was in a match that ended something like 45:15. That was a tedious 14 minutes that could have taken 7 minutes instead. The enemy team was stronger and had a good gunship/bomber ball set up. Fine. But either they were being "nice" to us, or they were trying to pad their career kill:death ratio. They were so careful and just waited for us to run into their trap, instead of flying and fighting us. Our team was not good enough to do much damage but not bad enough to die so quickly either. They were just delaying the inevitable and not making it any more fun for us.

 

So, uneven matches are definitely a problem, but telling the stronger team to hold back is not a real solution.

You can only speak for yourself not your entire team. Holding back gives the opposition a chance to gain more req and feel like they did not just waste their time queuing.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Lendul

[AlrikFassbauer]

There are many matches, however, in which one super-ace pilot completely dominates. To these guys I humbly ask, "dial it down" a bit. What's being gained by your 25-0 K/D? Certainly not anyone's fun. Certainly not your teammates' and opponents' skill levels. And certainly not the long-term health of GSF.

 

If it's clear your team is facing a bunch of noobs, perhaps hop in your bomber and play support? At the least, don't play your fully kitted scout, obliterating everyone within 2 seconds under a hail of rocket pods and quad lasers. In other words, strive for a proportionate response. Bring your A-game against A-teams, not scrubs. Everyone will thank you for it.

 

You or rather your ship will literally get destroyed for this opinion.

You won't be liked at all. You are a heretic by now.

 

I'm quoting myself :

 

I have experienced the direct opposite yesterday or the day before that :

 

EVERYONE was so much better than me, and the "aces" were acting as if they had the full intention to pick up every enemy I had driven into 20 % health and give them the final shot - so that THEY could get the medals and not me.

 

I mean, I treally TRY to do my very best. I use the tricks I know, and do my very best - but some people are just better. Maybe they use special mice, have far superior hand coordination, maybe they are just naturals, I don't know.

But I do my very best - and it just isn't recognized as that. I really felt like the 5th wheel on a car.

 

I really have no idea what had happened but EVERY SINGLE ONE I was killing ( I saw the explosion right before my eyes ! ) got the message "[insert other name than me] killed [enemy I had thought I had just killed]" ...

 

It's as if some people were explicitrely hunting for low health opponents and do some killstealing.

 

And of course THEY get the medals ! THEY get the top position at the scoreboard ! But not me !

 

It's as if some people were trying their best to dominate the OWN team and merely consider other team members as need tools to deliver them ready-to-kill opponents.

 

That really put me off. I just couldn't play any GSF that evening anymore.

 

 

 

 

Bottom line : A solution would be brackets like in ground PvP.

 

 

But playing the few thousand games is how the good pilots got that way.

 

Even if you do, it is ludicrous to expect people who are angry and frustrated by a poor play experience to play literally thousands of matches before they start enjoying themselves, as Sammy was suggesting.

 

Exactly.

 

Thousands of matches is WORK

NOT fun !

 

The circumstance out of their control is their opposition's play time. The circumstance in their control is playing the game. You can't play only a few games and be Ace level, and if your first reaction is to quit, it's not reasonable to think that person wants to PVP but doesn't want to put in the work.

 

Where is the FUN factor

actually in doing WORK ?

 

Work is fun to me when I get a sense of accomplishment.

I don't when I get destroyed thousands of matches all over.

 

And again I'm quoting myself :

 

 

 

Raids are about groups. Rather in PUGs, but also in guilds, it is so that people want to have fun, they want to see themselves that they are contributing.

 

As I always say : "for a good boss there are not bad employeed. Only mis-placed ones." Because I firmly believe that everyone is as good in one thing as he or she is bad in another thing.

 

Just as an example : My personal frustration staminy is frighteningly low in MMO - yet I'm the most partient man people around me know when it comes to teaching people things. I more than once heard people say that they just cannot understand that I could remnain so patient with people when I teach them things.

 

This also means that people tend to prefer classes which they are good at. And the reaid leader should be able to choose which places they can take in a raid group. So that everyoine has some fun and a sense of accomplishment.

 

Listen to yourself. "You lost because of circumstances completely outside your control as a new player, and had a very bad experience because of it? Well, suck it up and go play a few thousand games so it gets better."

 

Which sounds exactly like a teacher at school.

"Circumstances completely outside your controil" = Children. Teenagers.

And you STILL have to work for THEM.

NOT for you. for THEM.

 

The biggest issue with GSF in my opinion is, that skill gap can destroy games completely.

 

My opinion as well.

Edited January 10, 2015 by AlrikFassbauer

[Armonddd]

Find any PvP games where you don,t have to play hundreds of matches to become decent.

 

Please re-read what I wrote; you seem to have missed my point.