Andryah Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Yes, 'the customer is always right', so to speak, but there's an extent to that where it just becomes them trying to get noticed for notice's shake. Not saying the person I'm quoting is doing that; it's just a general thought that I see constantly in games. "the customer is always right" is consumer rhetoric. It is rhetoric that is used to try to embarrass a company into giving the customer what they want, immediately, and with additional compensation of some forum usually. It's a consumer tactic. It does not matter if the customer is always right or not. Just because a customer declares they are right.. does not mean they get what they want. Why? Because sometimes customers are unreasonable in their demands (which I am NOT saying applies to this topic, so don't go there folks). A customer is right if, and only if, the merchant agrees. They sometimes agree and sometimes don't. Sometimes it's better business to just let the unreasonable customer go troll some other poor merchant with their demands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) You all know this is inherent in the engine right? They will band aid it like they have been for the last 2 years, because they didn't even acknowledged it year 1. They will fix it over the next few months and then re-break it with the next substantial update and the cycle begins a new. To actually fix it, its going to take a new engine which will never happen. So please Bioware get to making that Band aid and tell us about it. Its been almost a week! Strawman attack on the game engine. I guess the tactic never gets old around here. It is inherent in the game (in a recurring fashion after major changes to the game). It's not clear that it is the "engine" per se. The client side, for example, seems to be working fine. The delays with ability are transaction latency on the server side, and are very dependent on server loading right now. It might have nothing at all to do with the game engine whatsoever ..... it could be funky performance by subsystems inside the servers that are not engine specific. "Replacing the engine" is the wrong focus. You are just attracting the anti-engine crowd into the discussion with that assertion. They need (and have admitted they are working on it) a new server technology approach. Edited January 7, 2015 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayseven Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 Eric said he'd try to get us some info by Friday and earlier if at all possible, so I'm waiting patiently to see what happens. This post isn't about EA/BW "owing us" something, nor is it about "the engine". At its base, it was about the appearance of poor decisions resulting in poor timing resulting in poor customer service. The majority of us know very little about the "behind the scenes" involved in a MMO. We can speculate based on bits and pieces received from years of MMO gaming and developer forum posts, but we don't really know. We can not make cut and dried comments on how it is or should be unless a MMO developer pull back the curtain and show us what is actually going on. What we can do is voice our opinion and (hopefully) discuss it in a meaningful manner if for no other reason than to get some attention focused on an issue that may affect a large portion of the player base. Here, it resulted in at least a cursory comment of the "we are aware" variety and hopefully maybe a little more information shortly. And maybe, at the end of 2015 or 2016, an expansion will be launched a little earlier to avoid interfering with the holiday season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 "the customer is always right" is consumer rhetoric. It is rhetoric that is used to try to embarrass a company into giving the customer what they want, immediately, and with additional compensation of some forum usually. It's a consumer tactic. It does not matter if the customer is always right or not. Just because a customer declares they are right.. does not mean they get what they want. Why? Because sometimes customers are unreasonable in their demands (which I am NOT saying applies to this topic, so don't go there folks). A customer is right if, and only if, the merchant agrees. They sometimes agree and sometimes don't. Sometimes it's better business to just let the unreasonable customer go troll some other poor merchant with their demands. Origins of the phrase "The Customer Is Always Right." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucyfer_Infinity Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 So please Bioware get to making that Band aid and tell us about it. Its been almost a week! Don't you mean over a month? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuiltySouldier Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 "the customer is always right" is consumer rhetoric. It is rhetoric that is used to try to embarrass a company into giving the customer what they want, immediately, and with additional compensation of some forum usually. It's a consumer tactic. It does not matter if the customer is always right or not. Just because a customer declares they are right.. does not mean they get what they want. Why? Because sometimes customers are unreasonable in their demands (which I am NOT saying applies to this topic, so don't go there folks). A customer is right if, and only if, the merchant agrees. They sometimes agree and sometimes don't. Sometimes it's better business to just let the unreasonable customer go troll some other poor merchant with their demands. Oh, I know that. It's just the saying I think of when comments pertaining to threads like this one and others of the like. The customer either decides it's not in the best interest, whether short-term or long-term, to continue paying for a product (in this case, the game subscription) and cut ties, or continuing enjoying said product and wait until the issue is resolved. Anything outside of that, especially berating of the producers (the Devs), isn't going to make the issue clear up any faster. Truth be told, that goes with a LOT of things going on in the gaming industry, but that's a whole other story. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toweleeeie Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Strawman attack on the game engine. I guess the tactic never gets old around here. It is inherent in the game (in a recurring fashion after major changes to the game). It's not clear that it is the "engine" per se. The client side, for example, seems to be working fine. The delays with ability are transaction latency on the server side, and are very dependent on server loading right now. It might have nothing at all to do with the game engine whatsoever ..... it could be funky performance by subsystems inside the servers that are not engine specific. "Replacing the engine" is the wrong focus. You are just attracting the anti-engine crowd into the discussion with that assertion. They need (and have admitted they are working on it) a new server technology approach. Just put me back on ignore... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdatt Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 The continued silence this week is disturbing me. I can only assume someone of importance "worked" last week when BW was otherwise shutdown, and is taking thei vacation this week. Two weeks was fine for silence, maybe even Monday since folks are getting caught up and having meetings, but being Wednesday without a peep is bothering this patient customer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humanindustry Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Well, my current sub ends in 11 days, so unless there's either a fix or some extensive communication from Bioware on when they are actually going to adress these latency issues that makes the game close to unplayable since 3.0 hit, I won't resub again. I see no point in giving out to money to a product that doesn't work nearly as well as it should be. Which is really a shame as I really enjoy the content within the game a lot, but enough is enough, don't release an expansion before the holidays unless you're prepared to work through them to fix all the issues that comes with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Code_Airwolf Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) Just want to ask my question again as it got drowned apparently in a debate about what a PR department does, or whatever..... By switching to instance two on Belsavis I eliminated the ability lag (hitting a power 3 or 4 times) as well as the overall lag where my companion was reacting about a 5 seconds behind and the game thinking I wasn't behind a target when I was....etc etc.... My question to the more knowledgeable than I when it comes to how servers work on an MMO - when switching to Instance 2 it went from 58 people (which never was a problem before 3.0) to 5 people, yes. But some say their Instance 1 has 5 people because they get on the middle of the night and they have lag. So my question is - can it be the INSTANCE itself that the problem exists? Can instance 2 have no lag because it was just freshly booted up, whereas Instance 1 has always been on and hasn't be rebooted or refreshed or something? Is there something to the Instances, themselves? Just a curious question. Because time after time I tried w/my SA on Belsavis and all but gave up and had to park him. I tried one more time, it was pathetic, switched to Instance 2, and it was like magic. Everything worked perfectly no lag at all. Finished up all missions and quests and left the planet. Edited January 7, 2015 by Code_Airwolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesira Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 The fact it's Wednesday and the last thing posted by a dev was last week..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 "the customer is always right" is consumer rhetoric. It is rhetoric that is used to try to embarrass a company into giving the customer what they want, immediately, and with additional compensation of some forum usually. That's not at all what that phrase means. It means the customer is why you have a job. The customer buys the stuff that pays your wages. It means that no matter what type of issue the customer has, your job is to make sure they stay a customer - their problem is your problem, because without them, there is no more wages. It doesn't mean give them free stuff, it just means make sure they know you hear them and are aware of their issue and pretend like you care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dscount Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Yes.. the dead silence from the CM team is very concerning. I suspect some hard and highly debated internal decisions are being made on HOW to handle things. Meanwhile, folks are starting the mass exodus like the great TORTantic is going down. LAG - Most likely $$$ is going to be required on a HW level and likely a recoding for optimization. Exploit(s) - How to address and mitigate damage done to gearing/economy as well those using. BUGS - Too many BIG ones to list here, but I'm in agreement of MANY posts... never drop a major REV and go out on Holiday for almost a month with no real patching/reboot. (Yes patch 3.0.1 was nice to fix getting LOOT that should have been ready 12/2) I sure hope something is planned for this week or the game (IMHO) is just aiming for another iceberg to hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exdeusimperator Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I don't care if we get a freebie, I don't care if the patch to fix the bugs comes in March, I just want a damn update. An acknowledgement from BW that the problems are being fixed, that a solution is forthcoming. The amount of rage, vitriol and down right frustration can all be alleviated if we simply had better communication as to what's being done. Are the bugs being worked on? Is there a possible ETA on a patch? Is the ability lag, bugged fights and other gripes being given the priority it needs? And a question I know they will not answer, what went wrong? Was it a lack of quality testing? A problem from when the Xpac went to live? Could an OPEN Beta have helped or a larger stress test? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pluvie Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I honestly think this is a great game. It's fun, has engaging mechanics and it's conceptually well done. On that front Bioware never fails. Been playing for 2 years and most of that time I've been hooked into it quite a great deal. Where they failed, in my opinion, is in the code-optimization and maintenance. A little story: Since from the start, having a massive impact on hard drive and RAM, just to load tiny (compared to other MMOs) areas has been a huge drawback in performance, and that has never been optimized with time. Just to give you an idea, I have a powerful rig that runs Dragon Age Inquisition on Ultra details with no trouble at all, and have played WoW and Skyrim with perfectly acceptable loading times, but I've never been able to play this game smoothly. The only partial solution, at least to improve loading times (Corellia alone took more than 2 minutes) was to buy a SSD just for this game.The more content that was added, the worse the performances became. I find very strange that given the time they had, they haven't been able to fix warzone lag, ops lag, UI responsivness.. heck, we still have freezes even when dismounting to summon companions.. all those elements adds up to annoy and ruin what would be a wonderful and immersive world.The icing on the cake: textures. Really when I first saw Lana and Theron I thought for some reason my graphic settings had been decreased.. and even without that, the graphics in general have at best remained the same of game launch, even with Shadow of Revan. That kinda sucks because it's like baking a cake with delicious ingredients and then serving it in a trash bin. To sum it up, for me the game is not worth the money anymore. Tomorrow subs end and I will leave it be. Shame, real shame, because I love what they did, the universe, skills, characters, dialogues, cutscenes and I really really like the new discipline system.. unfortunately they haven't been able to refine the product enough to deliver its awesome content. I doubt this will change in the future, but if it ever will, I'll be the first to come back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDymond Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) I don't care if we get a freebie, I don't care if the patch to fix the bugs comes in March, I just want a damn update. An acknowledgement from BW that the problems are being fixed, that a solution is forthcoming. The amount of rage, vitriol and down right frustration can all be alleviated if we simply had better communication as to what's being done. Are the bugs being worked on? Is there a possible ETA on a patch? Is the ability lag, bugged fights and other gripes being given the priority it needs? And a question I know they will not answer, what went wrong? Was it a lack of quality testing? A problem from when the Xpac went to live? Could an OPEN Beta have helped or a larger stress test? They have already (1) acknowledged that it is an issue, (2) stated that they are looking into its cause and possible remedies, and (3) given a specific time-frame (by the day after tomorrow at the latest) for when they will provide a more detailed status update. We definitely have not forgotten about this and the team is still assessing what the cause is, and how we can begin to address it. What I am going to do is to work with the team to get a status update with as much detail as I can, by next Friday (although hopefully before then!). Edited January 7, 2015 by DarthDymond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tolunart Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Meanwhile, folks are starting the mass exodus like the great TORTantic is going down. . Didn't that ship sink in late 2011? Maybe it was 2012... or 2013? I'm sure it had already sunk by the end of 2014. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dscount Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Didn't that ship sink in late 2011? Maybe it was 2012... or 2013? I'm sure it had already sunk by the end of 2014. Well if you read all the doom & gloom posts is always 1 week after a new MMO launchs... Think BW has done some great stuff, but the engine I suspect is fighting with them to do all the cool stuff we have recently been given. I'm sure it's a delicate balance of coding (Old code even) to make it all play nice. Hopefully they can recover from a great many of the issues TODAY and resolve quickly. Communication is key and I suspect sending a response to the masses has some "Executive" rubber stamp inclusion in regard to handling and holding up those in the community sending us updates. (Yes - I seriously doubt they will ever say that, but my 2 pesos) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tolunart Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Computer programming is 10% coding and 90% trying to make sure that the code works the way it's supposed to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightSaberAddiCt Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Not sure if this is the same for everyone, but I was on rishi last night, pretty populated, and no ability lag. Can anyone else verify it was the same for them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Not sure if this is the same for everyone, but I was on rishi last night, pretty populated, and no ability lag. Can anyone else verify it was the same for them? I can verify that this is NOT the case for everyone. Last night on Yavin it was unplayable in instance 2 (POT5). The ability lag could be counted in seconds. Instance 1 was fine. So...even if you get lucky, the issue is still very much present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shipwright Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Not sure if this is the same for everyone, but I was on rishi last night, pretty populated, and no ability lag. Can anyone else verify it was the same for them? Last night on Shadowlands Rishi was ok, and in fact even Belsavis Republic daily area was not bad ( and for me, that area has been actually unplayable since 3.0 with ability delays of 10 seconds or more being common; I tried it out yesterday to test it). However at the moment, I just finished Belsavis Imperial daily area and it was not very good. Better than it has been but still bad delays. Have been days since 3.0 when this area was not practical to play. Has never, for me, been any correlation with how many players are in the instance. I'll be happy when this is rectified. Hopefully they figure out what changed when 3.0 hit and brought this on. At least on Shadowlands, it has been very bad in some places, seriously bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) I can also confirm that switching between instances SOMETIMES clears this up, and not always because the destination instance has a smaller population. Problem is also not in any obvious way related to any particular planets. More evidence that this is highly random, and not an issue linked to the user's computer or client, but rather something going on at the servers themselves. Edited January 7, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I give them kudos for accomplishing some of the things that the original devs said were impossible...I am sure by messing with this and that and finding a way through tinkering. For folks that are fairly intuitive there is always a way to make things happen...you just have to find it. Of course, doing so can break things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuiltySouldier Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Computer programming is 10% coding and 90% trying to make sure that the code works the way it's supposed to. This right here is definitely not far from the truth. lol It's one of those 'you have to do it to understand' types of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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