Refund training costs [yes] / [no]

[_NovaBlast_]

Poor dead horse...

Will you ever stop beating it?

 

agreed its amazing how self entitled and petty some gamers

 

 

No, i was level 60 before i even went to Rishi last wednesday and I believe its not necessary.

Edited December 9, 2014 by _NovaBlast_

[LordArtemis]

What I would find amazing is how strongly some folks oppose refunds. I find it curious that folks would feel so passionately about preventing anything like this.

 

Personally I do not care either way. I am satisfied with the changes they made....but I would welcome recompense, as I would expect most would, even some of those complaining against the practice.

 

A reasonable person would not stand against a refund IMO. They frankly would not care if they got one or not, and certainly would not care if someone else received one.

 

Especially if it is a token amount, or an amount spent on an obvious oversight, like "double training".

 

Saying credits are easy to earn is not a reason to passionately oppose a refund. The entire effort is bizarre IMO.

 

Saying credits are easy to earn would certainly be a good reason to point out to someone interested in a refund that any demanding, overly emotional post is not necessary, since it is not that serious of an issue.

Edited December 9, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Khevar]

What I would find amazing is how strongly some folks oppose refunds. I find it curious that folks would feel so passionately about preventing anything like this.

I don't have a strong philosophical objection to it.

 

But I do have a strong practical objection to it.

 

How large a database would it require to keep track of the state of every single toon for every single account so be able to compare 12/2 to 12/9? Would they log the history of every skill purchase? Would they "snapshot" the state of every toon nightly? How far back does the backup go?

 

Urg. That's a lot of space.

 

Okay, so let's say they did have a backup from 7 days ago that contained the state of every toon on every server. Now they'd have to restore that to some other offline server, do some sort of differential compare, look up prices, and calculate the amount spent for each toon.

 

Let's say that was done, and they start issuing "credits"

 

I predict an immediate floodgate of complaints about "you didn't credit me correctly" would follow, even if the amount credited were correct in every case. A certain number of players would feel cheated due to math mistakes.

 

Then you'd have the people complaining about other refunds they deserve. Toons they leveled before training was free, etc.

 

How much resources would it require to pull all this off (and deal with the fallout)? What if those resources could be spent on other things that are STILL problems in the game?

[Alaskangeek]

What I would find amazing is how strongly some folks oppose refunds. I find it curious that folks would feel so passionately about preventing anything like this.

 

Personally I do not care either way. I am satisfied with the changes they made....but I would welcome recompense, as I would expect most would, even some of those complaining against the practice.

 

A reasonable person would not stand against a refund IMO. They frankly would not care if they got one or not, and certainly would not care if someone else received one.

 

Especially if it is a token amount, or an amount spent on an obvious oversight, like "double training".

 

Saying credits are easy to earn is not a reason to passionately oppose a refund. The entire effort is bizarre IMO.

 

Saying credits are easy to earn would certainly be a good reason to point out to someone interested in a refund that any demanding, overly emotional post is not necessary, since it is not that serious of an issue.

 

I'm in the "I do not care" vote.

I said No in the forum here, based on if the question is asked that we should *demand* a refund.

I do not believe we should demand one out of BioWare, but if BioWare gave one, I would not be against it.

 

I am not owed a refund since I held off my training until today.

 

Also, I would not assume that all the folks saying NO, are equally against a refund.

I would be against demanding one.

 

Also, I'm not sure BioWare has the tools or tech to track all training costs that where spent, so they may be in favor of doing such a thing, but currently do not have their 'tracking tools' set up to keep a database of that. So a refund is not possible. Just a guess.

[Brewski]

What I would find amazing is how strongly some folks oppose refunds. I find it curious that folks would feel so passionately about preventing anything like this.

 

Personally I do not care either way. I am satisfied with the changes they made....but I would welcome recompense, as I would expect most would, even some of those complaining against the practice.

 

A reasonable person would not stand against a refund IMO. They frankly would not care if they got one or not, and certainly would not care if someone else received one.

 

Especially if it is a token amount, or an amount spent on an obvious oversight, like "double training".

 

Saying credits are easy to earn is not a reason to passionately oppose a refund. The entire effort is bizarre IMO.

I personally don't feel it's unreasonable to oppose an unreasonable request. Price reductions have, historically, never been accompanied by a refund of in game credits, so why should this one be different?

 

If done, it sets a bad precedent and garners more QQing about every price reduction in the future. Want those extraction costs reduced or removed? How are you going to calculate that refund? And you know it would be requested, and if a refund is given here, people will site it as the reason. I've also spent million on gear that's irrelevant. Do I get a refund for that? Why not?

 

And frankly I look at it as looking a gift horse in the mouth. Bioware does something nice that some users have been asking for, and all they get is kvetching that they should have done it sooner, and should give more credits to everyone?

 

Come on people, show some gratitude.

[Deewe]

Is the tools or tech to track all training costs that where spent, so they may be in favor of doing such a thing, but currently do not have their 'tracking tools' set up to keep a database of that. So a refund is not possible. Just a guess.

I've had tickets opened in the past and regarding the follow up from BioWare it seems that they do track/record every transaction and can roll back at some point. However (emphasis) it seems they could do it to some extend. Question is how long do they track these records without needing to get them from backups.

[LordArtemis]

I don't have a strong philosophical objection to it.

 

But I do have a strong practical objection to it.

 

How large a database would it require to keep track of the state of every single toon for every single account so be able to compare 12/2 to 12/9? Would they log the history of every skill purchase? Would they "snapshot" the state of every toon nightly? How far back does the backup go?

 

Urg. That's a lot of space.

 

Okay, so let's say they did have a backup from 7 days ago that contained the state of every toon on every server. Now they'd have to restore that to some other offline server, do some sort of differential compare, look up prices, and calculate the amount spent for each toon.

 

Let's say that was done, and they start issuing "credits"

 

I predict an immediate floodgate of complaints about "you didn't credit me correctly" would follow, even if the amount credited were correct in every case. A certain number of players would feel cheated due to math mistakes.

 

Then you'd have the people complaining about other refunds they deserve. Toons they leveled before training was free, etc.

 

How much resources would it require to pull all this off (and deal with the fallout)? What if those resources could be spent on other things that are STILL problems in the game?

 

Ok, remember Khevar this is just my opinion, which means next to nothing.

 

I agree that saying something to the effect of "if it takes resources, those resources could be better spent on more serious issues" is a sensible argument against.

 

That is the only that I will concede makes sense. If one wants to say "this is a non issue, I would rather Bioware works on more important things" I can see that as a logical counter.

 

However, that is not what is most often being argued, passionately I might add.

 

The most common argument I have seen is the trite banal contention that "credits are easy, stop being lazy" or "give an inch, take a mile". That is not a solid foundation on which to present a counterargument. Instead it is a myopic dismissive view that does not accept the reality of ANY situation of this kind.

 

Players need to be happy. This is a vehicle of profit that depends on customer satisfaction. What makes them happy is speculative, but it could be argued that folks generally do not like when things that once had a cost become free shortly after being paid for, and certainly folks do not generally like to pay for things TWICE.

 

This is not an unreasonable or entitled view to anyone who has a rational viewpoint.

 

However, it could be argued that MOST folks would likely not care either way, and would be more than happy with the current change.

 

I tend to agree with this viewpoint.

Edited December 9, 2014 by LordArtemis

[LordArtemis]

I personally don't feel it's unreasonable to oppose an unreasonable request. Price reductions have, historically, never been accompanied by a refund of in game credits, so why should this one be different?

 

If done, it sets a bad precedent and garners more QQing about every price reduction in the future. Want those extraction costs reduced or removed? How are you going to calculate that refund? And you know it would be requested, and if a refund is given here, people will site it as the reason. I've also spent million on gear that's irrelevant. Do I get a refund for that? Why not?

 

And frankly I look at it as looking a gift horse in the mouth. Bioware does something nice that some users have been asking for, and all they get is kvetching that they should have done it sooner, and should give more credits to everyone?

 

Come on people, show some gratitude.

 

I am not concerned with precedent. Players will not curtail requests simply because this one is not granted, nor increase requests because this becomes a reality IMO.

 

That contention is just a fallacy in my eyes. The entire "give an inch, take a mile" thing.

 

There are players that will always try to "take a mile" whether an inch is given or not.

 

Saying folks should be thankful for the change is not an unreasonable contention...I would agree. I would also agree that insulting Bioware because of this change, or acting as if this change is an insult in some way instead of a QoL improvement is also a foolish viewpoint.

 

But that is NOT a reason to oppose a refund. The only reason to oppose one, if you are being reasonable IMO, is the consideration that if it is work intensive that effort should be spent on more important things.

 

Almost all other arguments against that I have seen are generally philosophical in nature IMO and are weak at best.

[MediumD]

I understand how some people that aggressively upgraded their entire legacies might be angry. I bought some skill upgrades on my 12 toons before the skill cost change was announced. I consider the removal of skill upgrade costs as my "refund," though.

[LordArtemis]

I understand how some people that aggressively upgraded their entire legacies might be angry. I bought some skill upgrades on my 12 toons before the skill cost change was announced. I consider the removal of skill upgrade costs as my "refund," though.

 

So do I. I think I will see a ten fold return on what I spent based on what I will save in the future.

[azudelphi]

As of this post, there are 63 "Yes" votes and 73 non-"Yes" votes. Slight majority either don't want or wouldn't ask for a refund at this point.

[Pirana]

Not needed.

[jedimasterjac]

No, they should not. You chose to spend those credits, of your own will. If a store puts something on sale, must it give a refund to those who purchased things for full-price?

[Alaskangeek]

I'm all for the logic of, if it takes resources away from fixing broken things in the game to do a refund, then I would move from the "I do not care", to "I care", and please do not do it!

[DarthTHC]

I am not concerned with precedent. Players will not curtail requests simply because this one is not granted, nor increase requests because this becomes a reality IMO.

 

That contention is just a fallacy in my eyes. The entire "give an inch, take a mile" thing.

 

There are players that will always try to "take a mile" whether an inch is given or not.

 

Saying folks should be thankful for the change is not an unreasonable contention...I would agree. I would also agree that insulting Bioware because of this change, or acting as if this change is an insult in some way instead of a QoL improvement is also a foolish viewpoint.

 

But that is NOT a reason to oppose a refund. The only reason to oppose one, if you are being reasonable IMO, is the consideration that if it is work intensive that effort should be spent on more important things.

 

Almost all other arguments against that I have seen are generally philosophical in nature IMO and are weak at best.

 

How about the argument that rewarding bad behavior (in this case, baseless complaints, whining, tantrums) serves only to encourage the same bad behavior in the future? Is that a valid argument against refunds?

 

Having raised a child from birth to productive, contributing adult member of society, I'm going to say yes, yes it is.

Edited December 9, 2014 by DarthTHC

[Orizuru]

As of this post, there are 63 "Yes" votes and 73 non-"Yes" votes. Slight majority either don't want or wouldn't ask for a refund at this point.

 

I'm finding the results surprising. I was expecting more "I don't care" responses than "No". I figured "Yes" would be the clear winner since everyone likes getting credits added to their wallet, but really expected less opposition than its received.

 

I'll be curious how the poll plays out if this topic manages to stay at the top of the page through a weekend, but I doubt it will get enough responses to provide any quantitative analysis of the results. I think it would take at least 10,000 responses before we can even begin to pretend that there isn't some major bias at play given how poorly these forums represent the playerbase already.

[Khevar]

Players need to be happy. This is a vehicle of profit that depends on customer satisfaction. What makes them happy is speculative, but it could be argued that folks generally do not like when things that once had a cost become free shortly after being paid for, and certainly folks do not generally like to pay for things TWICE.

This is a very fair statement to make.

 

And what makes each player happy is going to be different.

 

3.0 dropped on Tuesday. Three days later (on Friday) the cost reduction was announced. For me, the fact that all future training costs are going to be free outweighs the amount I spent on training during those three days -- and that makes me happy.

 

/shrug

[Deewe]

I'm finding the results surprising. I was expecting more "I don't care" responses than "No". I figured "Yes" would be the clear winner since everyone likes getting credits added to their wallet, but really expected less opposition than its received.

 

I'll be curious how the poll plays out if this topic manages to stay at the top of the page through a weekend, but I doubt it will get enough responses to provide any quantitative analysis of the results. I think it would take at least 10,000 responses before we can even begin to pretend that there isn't some major bias at play given how poorly these forums represent the playerbase already.

1k votes are far enough to give a nice trend without too much bias.

 

300 would already give a pretty accurate view.

[Andryah]

Almost all other arguments against that I have seen are generally philosophical in nature IMO and are weak at best.

 

My objection, as I have stated a number of times in different threads is: it would require them to take time, resources, and effort to build an automated process that can look-up ACTUAL expenses by a character then package and send the credit to the character in the mail.

 

What could go wrong right? Let's see... bugs.. where the money goes the wrong character for some reason... or mail just never arrives for some reason... or the player behind the character decides that the amount is incorrect (based on their bad memory, or notes) and demands more credits. just to name a few.

 

We have an brand new xpac in play... with bugs that need stomping post haste. I do not want Bioware resources taken away from this just to build an automated process (and debug it) just to please a disaffected minority.

 

Then again.. I guess they could just hire 100 contractors in India to do the entire process manually... but the negative results would be the same, perhaps worse.. because this is the last thing you want to do manually.

 

People need to drop it. It's a nice concept.. but a teribad idea right now. And frankly next month.. people will have forgotten all about it as they are boiling the next pet peeve in their pot_of_discontent.

 

Sometimes the player base just needs to suck it up and move on. This is one of those times.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Andryah

[TravelersWay]

Yes... please refund all training costs since 1.0.

 

I will /sign that petition!

[Andryah]

How about the argument that rewarding bad behavior (in this case, baseless complaints, whining, tantrums) serves only to encourage the same bad behavior in the future? Is that a valid argument against refunds?

 

Having raised a child from birth to productive, contributing adult member of society, I'm going to say yes, yes it is.

 

Very true. But MMO players will swear that they do not follow human nature.

[Brewski]

I am not concerned with precedent. Players will not curtail requests simply because this one is not granted, nor increase requests because this becomes a reality IMO.

 

That contention is just a fallacy in my eyes. The entire "give an inch, take a mile" thing.

 

There are players that will always try to "take a mile" whether an inch is given or not.

 

Saying folks should be thankful for the change is not an unreasonable contention...I would agree. I would also agree that insulting Bioware because of this change, or acting as if this change is an insult in some way instead of a QoL improvement is also a foolish viewpoint.

 

But that is NOT a reason to oppose a refund. The only reason to oppose one, if you are being reasonable IMO, is the consideration that if it is work intensive that effort should be spent on more important things.

 

Almost all other arguments against that I have seen are generally philosophical in nature IMO and are weak at best.

Eh, we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I see the demand as unreasonable, and unnecessary, and I don't think giving into unreasonable demands is ever the right approach. Price reductions and rule changes happen in any dynamic game like an MMO, and are not retroactive, so insisting that this one has to be is as unreasonable as me demanding that they make the Rancor PvP reward mount available again, because I never had the chance to earn it. Or that they refund me all the money I put into my Sentinel because they changed my skills and I don't like to play it anymore.

[Code_Airwolf]

The poll should have instead given the options Need? or Greed?

[Khevar]

The poll should have instead given the options Need? or Greed?

You, Sir, have won the interwebs for today.

 

Edit: As long as you only need refunds for your primary toon in the instance. If you need refunds for your companion, you're being unfair to the rest of the group.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Khevar

[Code_Airwolf]

You, Sir, have won the interwebs for today.

 

Edit: As long as you only need refunds for your primary toon in the instance. If you need refunds for your companion, you're being unfair to the rest of the group.

 

LOL What about your Alts?