Tactics/Assault High Impact Bolt/Rail Shot Armor Penetration and Crit Damage Bonus :

[DarkNecroCrusher]

Hi guys !

 

I main a lvl 60 combat sent in PvP (I love challenge) but I also really liked playing on my Vanguard tank pre 3.0, and sometimes played it in Tactics spec to give a try.

 

I have a lot of rerolls thanks to x12 bonus, and have tried almost every class and every spec.

 

With 3.0 in early access, I guess a lot of people here have tried lvl 60 WZs with their Powertech/Vanguard, or other classes.

 

I have only tried with my combat sent (almost full PvP gear) and I find a bit abusive the damage output from the High Impact Bolt with the new Assault/Tactics spec, considering the awesome new utilities that has been given to the AC (speed, another stun breaker, etc ...) and utilities now shared between specs.

 

 

The thing I find odd is the crit damage bonus is staying the same while some other classes got it nerfed and armor pen is at 90% (+15%).

 

If you look into the discipline path, the crit damage bonus stayed at +30%, like for the Commando/Merc in Artillery/Arsenal spec, the Scoundrel/Op in Scrapper/Concealment and the Gunslinger/Sniper in Sharpshooter/Marksmanship.

 

If you look now to the Sage/Sorc in Telek/Lightning, the crit damage bonus is now +30%, down from +50% (-20%).

 

Same for Shadow/Sin in Infiltration/Deception, 30% down from 50% (-20%).

 

Everyone is now at +30%.

 

Except combat/carnage, now at +10% down from +30%, but they have a 100% armor pen.

 

Was it intended ? Or did they forget to tune it down for Tactics/Assault as well ?

 

Considering almost everybody is now at +30%, why did they buff the armor pen from High Impact Bolt by an additional 15% (90%, up from 75%) instead of buffing it by 25% and nerfing the crit damage bonus from +30% to +10%?

 

I think the issue other classes have with the instant 14k+ High Impact Bolt come from this mistake.

 

They should put the armor pen to 100% and tune down the crit damage bonus to 10% like combat/carnage (since both have ~100% armor pen) and it would be fair.

 

Your thoughts ?

Edited December 8, 2014 by DarkNecroCrusher

[Mitsugoya]

You just miss the more important fact. Unless Rail Shot is weapon damage (and TD is kinetic) all our damage were previously internal/elemetal, so all our damage were higher than what they are now. The +30% armor pen on RS is back to balance the fact that now we have all our skill being energy/kinetic.

 

On the overall we still do the same damage but just with more burst (we have previously a great burst and great substained dps, we now have a very great burst and a little less substained dps). Yeah for PvP it's suck for the other class, but don't forget that pvp is just ONE face of the game, and not the biggest one furthermore.

[DarkNecroCrusher]

That's why I didn't ask for a nerf, but a balance =)

 

+25% armor pen (100%) instead of +15% (90%) and +10% crit damage bonus instead of +30%.

 

It means more damage if no crit, and less insane damage if it crits (12k instead of 14).

 

Doesn't impact PvE that much, don't you think ?

[ArielRebel]

You are balancing around a single ability which is core to us. The 90% pen is ONLY for railgun. All other attacks are kinetic or energy which is still affected by armor,etc. Carnage has a 100% pen window (at least it did... i dont know now) in which ALL your damage ignores armor. See the difference? One ability versus all abilities during a window?

[TACeMossie]

Carnage is no longer considered a burst spec - Its a hybrid sustained spec. If carnage could keep up with the burst of Tactics, Concentration, Gunnery, Lightning, etc, then it would be broken and overpowered (its already a better sustained spec. Or at least it is intended to be).

 

And the scary thing for burst isn't the rail shot, but rather the Auto-crit surge-boosted Cell Burst.

 

Last bit edited out because I dun goofed

Edited December 9, 2014 by TACeMossie

[ArielRebel]

 

And the scary thing for burst isn't the rail shot, but rather the Auto-crit surge-boosted Cell Burst.

 

 

Hmm what auto-crit are you talking about?

[TACeMossie]

Hmm what auto-crit are you talking about?

 

Combat Tech's 6-piece set bonus:

 

"Using Ion Pulse or Flame Burst and Tactical Surge or Magnetic Blast will cause your next Cell Burst or Energy Burst and Fire Pulse or Immolate to automatically crit. This can only happen once every 60 seconds."

 

With Cell Burst/Energy Burst hitting for ludicrous damage, it tends to be outright impossible to deal with. Especially if a TD explodes alongside it.

Edited December 9, 2014 by TACeMossie

[ArielRebel]

Combat Tech's 6-piece set bonus:

 

"Using Ion Pulse or Flame Burst and Tactical Surge or Magnetic Blast will cause your next Cell Burst or Energy Burst and Fire Pulse or Immolate to automatically crit. This can only happen once every 60 seconds."

 

With Cell Burst/Energy Burst hitting for ludicrous damage, it tends to be outright impossible to deal with. Especially if a TD explodes alongside it.

Indeed but 2 globals with mediocre damage just to trigger the crit and then it's on CD for 1min. It's not THAT op. Along with shoulder cannon, PT/VG only have crazy burst each minute/minute and a half or so ... not really op compared to hatred sins for example (which I'm not even asking for a nerf) imo.

[TACeMossie]

Indeed but 2 globals with mediocre damage just to trigger the crit and then it's on CD for 1min. It's not THAT op. Along with shoulder cannon, PT/VG only have crazy burst each minute/minute and a half or so ... not really op compared to hatred sins for example (which I'm not even asking for a nerf) imo.

 

1 global*

 

Just use an opener of:

 

Sticky Grenade

Assault Plastique

Mag Blast

[battle Focus + Start SC Spam]

Rail Shot

Stockstrike

Cell Burst

Rail Shot

 

The damage will be compressed into the RS -> SS -> CB -> RS window, and will do over 65k damage. Nothing stands up to that. Not even an endurance stacking tank.

Edited December 9, 2014 by TACeMossie

[ArielRebel]

1 global*

 

Just use an opener of:

 

Sticky Grenade

Assault Plastique

Mag Blast

[battle Focus + Start SC Spam]

Rail Shot

Stockstrike

Cell Burst

Rail Shot

 

The damage will be compressed into the RS -> SS -> CB -> RS window, and will do over 65k damage. Nothing stands up to that. Not even an endurance stacking tank.

 

I'm a bit confused by the VG ability names as I play PT but just one thing: SC has 1min30sec of CD... that is FREAKING long to wait in between those "crazy burst" windows which, imo, makes it not that OP. After this initial burst, our damage "flattens" out over the rest of the duration of the fight and as we do energy/kinetic, we do less on the long run compared to pyro (plasma? the name i believe of the republic mirror) with all main abilities being elemental which bypasses armor. So yes, maybe in PVP I can see this being frustrating to play against, but in PVE, if you remove/lessen that burst, AP will be back to being subpar to pyro : burst (AP) vs sustain (pyro).

Edited December 9, 2014 by ArielRebel

[KainrycKarr]

It's only one ability with 90% compared to all with Carnage during the gore window, and even RS isn't the highest crit. The 14k's you're talking about are EB, which will usually only crit that hard once a minute or so (autocrit).

[mastervalkar]

It's only one ability with 90% compared to all with Carnage during the gore window, and even RS isn't the highest crit. The 14k's you're talking about are EB, which will usually only crit that hard once a minute or so (autocrit).

 

Also known that 14k Energy/Cell Blast Crits are normally found after double relic procs (yes those still exist), but are are very rare. My 60 VG in mostly 186 gear crits on on Cell Blast (or is it Burst on a VG...) for 9200-11000 range on average, only seen four 14k+ crits so far that I can remember.

 

What I love for are double relic proc HiBs. Those now hit over 10k, which make me smile every time.

Edited December 9, 2014 by mastervalkar

[TACeMossie]

I'm a bit confused by the VG ability names as I play PT but just one thing: SC has 1min30sec of CD... that is FREAKING long to wait in between those "crazy burst" windows which, imo, makes it not that OP. After this initial burst, our damage "flattens" out over the rest of the duration of the fight and as we do energy/kinetic, we do less on the long run compared to pyro (plasma? the name i believe of the republic mirror) with all main abilities being elemental which bypasses armor. So yes, maybe in PVP I can see this being frustrating to play against, but in PVE, if you remove/lessen that burst, AP will be back to being subpar to pyro : burst (AP) vs sustain (pyro).

 

The crazy burst windows also need battle focus (explosive fuel), so its actually 120 seconds between the obscene-global-a-tank burst windows.

For PvE, Im using both specs depending on the fight. I've only done the new fights 1 time each so far, and all of them in story mode, but for them I went:

 

SPARKY: Plasmatech - It needs AoE to deal with those adds, and doesn't have too much mobility requirements, so Plasma holds out better here.

 

QUATERMASTER BULO: Tactics. There is way too much AoE going out in this fight for you to give up the utility of 30% AoE Damage reduction, and you have to move a lot. So tactics is the obvious choice

 

TORQUE: Tactics. You can't accidentally kill the repair droid, so there goes Plasmatize from your rotation. And Pulse Cannon. And... yeah. Just go Tactics.

 

MASTER BLASTER: Plasmatech. Because every time I went tactics here, I pulled aggro and wiped the raid with the knockback

 

CORRATANI (I think I spelt that wrong): Tactics, because of phase 2 of the fight where your DoTs can kill a team mate. If that wasn't an issue, i'd go Plasmatech for it (unless I get bird duty in which case Tactics again)

 

RED KEPHESS (Malaphar the Savage): Tactics because I stood in the circle the whole time to hit 6.3k dps in the fight

 

WALKER KEPHESS (Sword Squadron Commanders): Tactics because I was on bomb duty which meant the boss aimed every single AoE at me

 

MUTATED KEPHESS (The Underlurker): Plasmatech because the DPS race is insane even in story mode (I accidentally had a rock fall on me, and despite being ressed within 20 seconds we still enraged)

 

KEPHESS COMMANDERS (Revanite Commanders): Plasmatech because AoE requirements

 

KEPHESS REBORN (Revan Reborn): Plasmatech because I couldn't be bothered respeccing

 

AND YES I KNOW I CALLED EVERY ToS BOSS A KEPHESS! ITS A RUNNING GAG!

[Zoom_VI]

1 global*

 

Just use an opener of:

 

Sticky Grenade

Assault Plastique

Mag Blast

[battle Focus + Start SC Spam]

Rail Shot

Stockstrike

Cell Burst

Rail Shot

 

The damage will be compressed into the RS -> SS -> CB -> RS window, and will do over 65k damage. Nothing stands up to that. Not even an endurance stacking tank.

 

Please stop repeating this, this opener is great for PvE, it is piss poor in PvP against any competent opponent because of the sheer number of GCDs before the CB means that your opponent will have already identified your intent and selected a means of countering or mitigating it.

 

minimize the setup, minimize it!

 

As for the OP, comparing Combat sentinels to Tactics Vanguards is like comparing apples to oranges. They are entirely different classes that use entirely different mechanics, comparing armor pen values in a vacuum is pointless.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[ArielRebel]

[quote=Zoom_VI;7862727

As for the OP, comparing Combat sentinels to Tactics Vanguards is like comparing apples to oranges. They are entirely different classes that use entirely different mechanics, comparing armor pen values in a vacuum is pointless.

 

Yup. And finally PT isnt stuck playing pyro and has 2 good dps spec... i sincerely hope it does not get nerfed. Though i agree that sentinels/marauders need to get a bit more love (read : get buffed a bit) considering the smack in the face they just recieved compared to jugg/guardian.

[Vodrin]

Carnage is no longer considered a burst spec - Its a hybrid sustained spec. If carnage could keep up with the burst of Tactics, Concentration, Gunnery, Lightning, etc, then it would be broken and overpowered (its already a better sustained spec. Or at least it is intended to be).

 

And the scary thing for burst isn't the rail shot, but rather the Auto-crit surge-boosted Cell Burst.

 

Last bit edited out because I dun goofed

 

It's still a high burst spec. Matter of fact, AP is the only spec with better burst right now. It is quite possible to do 26K damage to a geared target in 3 seconds right now, and with full min maxing that will increase to 34K in 3 seconds. AP is the only spec that can currently beat that.

 

The problem with sents is survivability, not damage.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Vodrin

[TACeMossie]

Please stop repeating this, this opener is great for PvE, it is piss poor in PvP against any competent opponent because of the sheer number of GCDs before the CB means that your opponent will have already identified your intent and selected a means of countering or mitigating it.

 

minimize the setup, minimize it!

 

As for the OP, comparing Combat sentinels to Tactics Vanguards is like comparing apples to oranges. They are entirely different classes that use entirely different mechanics, comparing armor pen values in a vacuum is pointless.

 

The opener is useless in PvE because you dont want sticky grenade, and you want Gut up asap. In PvP, you use sticky grenade -> AP while closing the gap, then the Tac Surge-> HiB -> SS -> CB -> HiB is when you're in melee range, and with missiles flying off starting at the HiB, everything dies. Everything. Except those damn consulars with their immunity buffs... NERF CONSULARS! (Shroud + God Bubble)

[ArielRebel]

The opener is useless in PvE because you dont want sticky grenade, and you want Gut up asap. In PvP, you use sticky grenade -> AP while closing the gap, then the Tac Surge-> HiB -> SS -> CB -> HiB is when you're in melee range, and with missiles flying off starting at the HiB, everything dies. Everything. Except those damn consulars with their immunity buffs... NERF CONSULARS! (Shroud + God Bubble)

 

But to be serious, you sound like you want PT to get his AP discipline nerfed which imo, should not be. A 2 min window between "crazy" burst balances it out.

[Zoom_VI]

The opener is useless in PvE because you dont want sticky grenade, and you want Gut up asap. In PvP, you use sticky grenade -> AP while closing the gap, then the Tac Surge-> HiB -> SS -> CB -> HiB is when you're in melee range, and with missiles flying off starting at the HiB, everything dies. Everything. Except those damn consulars with their immunity buffs... NERF CONSULARS! (Shroud + God Bubble)

 

You are still completely and utterly missing the point.

 

The point is players are observant, your maximum deeps opener means nothing if you have been CC'ed/taunted/pushed away and/or your target has popped appropriate DcDs, and lord help you if the other team has a half-decent tank.

 

Your opener gives the target way to much time to react.