Why I'm no longer playing concealment/srapper

[BobaFaceroll]

My two biggest gripes are Volatile Substance and the hole left by removing Hidden Strike.

 

VS - I hate the random time delay in detonation. Despise would actually be a better word...you never know when the damn thing is going to blow. I really hate when it fails to detonate at all. I also don't like the fact that in order to reliably fire off this ability I have to delay using it until I dot someone up with a long term dot. It removes counter play options by preventing you or your team mates from CC'ing that target.

 

No Hidden Strike - I can live with less up front burst because Backstab is now Hidden Strike when used from stealth. What I don't like is the loss of HS when you in combat stealth. It annoys me both in PvP and PvE.

 

Proposed Changes

- Make VS a time bomb that goes off after 3 seconds. That, along with the huge orbiting probe graphic, gives people time to react but ensures that the skill will actually go off, and at a predictable time. It also means you are not forced in to using a skill that prevents you from using CC.

- Cloaking Screen resets the cool down on Backstab. Make it a part of the Jarring Strike utility trait. That gives DPS Ops a clear choice between a strong offensive Utility and strong defensive Utilities in the Ultimate tier. Jarring Strike would definitely add to your burst, but it would come at the expense a strong defensive perk as a point of balance.

[texoc]

It appears our personal experiences vary quite a lot at the moment, granted I've not played a huge amount recently but in the games that I did play I felt super ineffective compared to what other classes were doing. Glad it's working out for you though and I'd appreciate it if you could share your talent / rotation / play style so I can try to emulate it.

 

I dont know, i am feeling currently like a demi god. I have probably 30+ games in solo ranked now and im sitting at probably 90% win rate.

You cant be focused down, if they try ita almost instant win. The amount of damage you can negate as concealment with well timed rolls is incredible.

 

Always last man standing, and aslong as the enemy healer died before my team got wiped i wiped the floor with what was left. Had multiple 1v3 and 1v2 that ive won. The heals are strong!

Edited December 8, 2014 by texoc

[Tamanous]

Concealment overall is far superior to pre-3.0. To say otherwise is to not bother to adapt to changes. My only complaint is that we lost more than we gained in abilities. I simply want one more "fun" ability added back. Operatives should be about utility imo and one more external option sure would be nice.

 

The delay and lack of visual appeal to VS can be annoying I must say. I try to chock it up as a stealthy attack that is hard to notice. The delay can be taken advantage of by have poison on a mob, hitting with VS and rolling ot moving to another target. VS goes off by itself without you needing to still be on the target. It can be used as a finisher in that way or to proc the damage buff while other party members finish the mob freeing the Operative to take out trash which they are great at.

 

The roll has saved my life or simply mitigated massive damage on more occasions than I can count. That itself is the biggest buff to us.

 

I will note that BS not resetting for your next stealth attack is highly annoying especially in pve when you simply want to move to your next target without waiting on a cool down. It leaves us without an opener on demand. Perhaps this is planned to reduce vanish reopens but we can do this anyway by timing it right. I just don't see the annoyance worth the attempted balance attempt. As another mentioned, perhaps had the timer reset on a vanish.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Tamanous

[Pilgrim_Grey]

Tam, after the discussion in this thread, I'm inclined to say the main issues people are having is a removal of a fun ability and the annoyance of how Blood Boiler works. Because I would agree, I feel like my Scrapper is in a better place than he was before. If anything, I'm annoyed by some of the changes that happened to Shoot First some patches ago, if they knew they were going here. But I suppose they did that to ease us into its removal... or something. That or they just decided to kill it after the knockdown removal hurt it so much.

[vennian]

I tried a few level 58 matches in regs yesterday, and have asessed a few changes

 

- Volatile is nice for the "replacement to burst nerf" burst that we finally get at 57. Its mechanic is quite wonky though and could use a redesign as that burst now feels unreliable.

 

- As others have stated, losing "Jarring Strike" is an issue.

 

- I understand that combat vanish and the untimely cooldown on Backstab is likely because you want us not to re-engage immediately from stealth. Previous dev statements support this notion.

 

- Survival works somewhat, as long as you don't get rooted by ranged. I do predict though that the spec will have major issues with rooting and ranged picking us off like clay pidgeons. I would love to see duels against dps sorcs, powertechs and hatred assassins by 'top players'.

 

- Crippling slice is a joke. Enemies can still hit you facing forward. I don't know how they rotate their shoulders and arms 180 degrees, but even after using CS and standing behind them I get hit.

 

- The loss of the animation for "Flechette Round"/"Acid Blade" is IMO unforgiveable. I will simply not play this spec without it. I cannot relate. It's no fun.

 

Reasessment. We might not be as unviable as previously stated in regs. But the utility nerf (that started a long time ago with the knockdown and seem to now have come full circle), role and identity of the spec is gone and it's not funny anymore. You nerfed the fun.

Edited December 9, 2014 by vennian

[Milchmann]

Since december 2011 iam playing the scrapper-scoundrel. I do mainly pvp.

I had to be very very patient, because biowares balancing usually punished the scrapper.

 

Ahead of 3.0 i supposed, that bioware noticed, the dd-scoundrel isn't vailable in pvp.

But they prefered the shadow and sins again . "Shadows have received a few quality of life improvements in the update".... ....an additional 12 sec. cc-immunity....!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

 

We received....? yes....nothing. We lost more than what we gain. I can't understand! I cant understand biowares balancing policy. And they dont help me to understand.

 

As it stands scrapper is no longer fun for me to play. He still isn't vailable in pvp . Enjoying scrapper was pretty much the main reason I played the game....

Edited December 9, 2014 by Milchmann

[FoE_Khorne]

No offence intended here but that level (or at least comparable) of burst has always been possible, it relies on everything critting and the opposing player doing literally nothing to prevent the damage. I've got 3 pvp videos filled with this type of thing happening and in pretty much every case the main factor was the other player being sub par in their counter play.

 

It appears our personal experiences vary quite a lot at the moment, granted I've not played a huge amount recently but in the games that I did play I felt super ineffective compared to what other classes were doing. Glad it's working out for you though and I'd appreciate it if you could share your talent / rotation / play style so I can try to emulate it.

 

Hopefully I will have a working stream in the next couple of weeks. You are correct of the comparable amount of burst, but it can be replicated now; more often, for less energy, and without relying on using cloaking screen offensively.

 

As to the question from another person about my utilities... I use Chem-resistant inlays, Infiltrator, Slip Away, Counterstrike, Advanced Cloaking, Evasive Imperative, and Revitalzers. I have a couple other dps OPS question my use of counterstrike. Although the more I play with it, the less I can see myself ever playing without it. There are a metric fckton of roots in the current meta. Being able to break an inquisitor or warrior root to roll away is clutch in arenas. rootbreak-->roll--> HoT --> roll --> HoT. Also fun fact. If you re-apply your kolto probe at 2 stacks you get an instant tick. Hence waiting for the 1st tick to cast it, nets you x2 ticks.

 

Several people have stated the animation for Volatile substance is lackluster.. Perhaps we can make everyone happy by incorporating the acid blade animation into the Volatile substance cast? Seems like a win/win to me.

 

I originally stated that cloaking screen should reset the cd of backstab, but that might make for burst that is way too strong. Perhaps entering stealth reduces the cooldown by 3 to 6 seconds would be more appropriate. Ive found that most of the time when i re-stealth that is about the time left on it to finish its CD.

Edited December 9, 2014 by FoE_Khorne

[FoE_Khorne]

Since december 2011 iam playing the scrapper-scoundrel. I do mainly pvp.

I had to be very very patient, because biowares balancing usually punished the scrapper.

 

Ahead of 3.0 i supposed, that bioware noticed, the dd-scoundrel isn't vailable in pvp.

But they prefered the shadow and sins again . "Shadows have received a few quality of life improvements in the update".... ....an additional 12 sec. cc-immunity....!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

 

We received....? yes....nothing. We lost more than what we gain. I can't understand! I cant understand biowares balancing policy. And they dont help me to understand.

 

As it stands scrapper is no longer fun for me to play. He still isn't vailable in pvp . Enjoying scrapper was pretty much the main reason I played the game....

 

We received immunity to everything for 3 out of 10 seconds....

[Haystak]

We received immunity to everything for 3 out of 10 seconds....

 

I exploit this scrapper feature with reckless abandon. My damage numbers at the end are rarely ground breaking, but the other team is not going to cap that node during my watch.

[KyoMamoru]

 

As to the question from another person about my utilities... I use Chem-resistant inlays, Infiltrator, Slip Away, Counterstrike, Advanced Cloaking, Evasive Imperative, and Revitalzers. I have a couple other dps OPS question my use of counterstrike. Although the more I play with it, the less I can see myself ever playing without it. There are a metric fckton of roots in the current meta. Being able to break an inquisitor or warrior root to roll away is clutch in arenas. rootbreak-->roll--> HoT --> roll --> HoT. Also fun fact. If you re-apply your kolto probe at 2 stacks you get an instant tick. Hence waiting for the 1st tick to cast it, nets you x2 ticks..

 

Counter Strike and Evasive Imperatives are so underrated by people, it's hilarious. In a protracted fight, you can have Evasion tick up every 25 seconds. That negates so much damage. Heroic wise, you and I are exactly the same on utilities. I've been using AoE reduction and Sedatives instead of Slip Away and Advanced Cloaking.

[Tamanous]

I exploit this scrapper feature with reckless abandon. My damage numbers at the end are rarely ground breaking, but the other team is not going to cap that node during my watch.

 

Roll certainly breaks damage rotation on the target you are engaged in but this can be made advantage of. Pick a player who loves to focus on you, engage a full rotation and passive cc, roll and engage another enemy to drag the other after you further away from their healer and support possibly through los. Be as annoying as possible and every time a roll absorbs an enemies burst it isn't hitting someone else.

 

Granted a root heavy match can disrupt this.

[Haystak]

Roll certainly breaks damage rotation on the target you are engaged in but this can be made advantage of. Pick a player who loves to focus on you, engage a full rotation and passive cc, roll and engage another enemy to drag the other after you further away from their healer and support possibly through los. Be as annoying as possible and every time a roll absorbs an enemies burst it isn't hitting someone else.

 

Granted a root heavy match can disrupt this.

 

Eventually people will learn to root then burst, or stun then burst to avoid losing it to a roll.

[QuiveringPotato]

*snip*

 

Several people have stated the animation for Volatile substance is lackluster.. Perhaps we can make everyone happy by incorporating the acid blade animation into the Volatile substance cast? Seems like a win/win to me.

 

*snip*

 

I have started to call it my "Taco Bell Strike", because it seriously looks like you're forcing your enemy to **** themselves.

 

Although, I love the ability itself. In regs, I tend to find a low health guy in the middle of a fight, put that **** on him, then throw my corrosive dart on him... about 4 seconds later, "Defeated <blah> with Volatile Substance [11,300]." Hilarious.

Edited December 10, 2014 by QuiveringPotato

[Starhugger]

If you guys watched the operative/scoundrel stream, the dev dude mentioned that its possible they'll make backblast not go on cd if used from stealth if they'll feel we lack the punch. So we would get back the double tap.

 

Now would be a great time to start crying like all the other classes always do. I know we usually take nerfs manly enough, but have you gone up against a good sin nowadays? We NEED that burst

[Haystak]

If you guys watched the operative/scoundrel stream, the dev dude mentioned that its possible they'll make backblast not go on cd if used from stealth if they'll feel we lack the punch. So we would get back the double tap.

 

Now would be a great time to start crying like all the other classes always do. I know we usually take nerfs manly enough, but have you gone up against a good sin nowadays? We NEED that burst

 

One thing I have learned about the forums for scoundrel/operatives. We dont have the numbers to ***** loud enough to get buffs.

 

This entire class flopped and twitched from 1.3 to 2.7, and the only thing to come to scoundrels were changes to roll, and inadvertant nerfs aimed at our gunslinger/sniper cousins. bioware has their metrics, where they get them from is probably just from looking at numbers in general.

 

I think the only time they really look at the forums, is when they see some metric that indicates something is wrong with the class, at which point they look at the forums, reddit, and streams to figure out what the community is griping about.

 

I think their priorities are in terms of what to fix first are.

Questing/Leveling

4man Instances

Raiding

PvP

 

Obviously anything that causes mass hysteria will be addressed first, but generally, unless you cant login, the devs are going to focus on the higher priorities first. I am not expecting any buffs or nerfs to come unless they have to change something to help pve balance and it just happens to effect pvp.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Haystak

[vennian]

Obviously anything that causes mass hysteria will be addressed first, but generally, unless you cant login, the devs are going to focus on the higher priorities first. I am not expecting any buffs or nerfs to come unless they have to change something to help pve balance and it just happens to effect pvp.

 

I agree. I just hope that they will take note when there will be less and less of us and they will go: "Didn't we design a spec called concealment once? Where did those players go?"

[FrumpytheClown]

I played some FPs and war zones and due to my macros...

 

**** you. Censored so read this f(_)ck You. Macros are such a cheap move and ONLY for losers. Learn to play without a macro and I bet you use other third party programs. Just quit the game now dip-**********. You are part of the problem with PVP, cheaters and losers who can't win without macros and hacks.

Not only are cloakers over powered but you have to add macros and possibly other cheats. Just stop playing the game, obviously you are a loser without your little macro crap.

Edited December 11, 2014 by FrumpytheClown

[FoE_Khorne]

**** you. Censored so read this f(_)ck You. Macros are such a cheap move and ONLY for losers. Learn to play without a macro and I bet you use other third party programs. Just quit the game now dip-**********. You are part of the problem with PVP, cheaters and losers who can't win without macros and hacks.

Not only are cloakers over powered but you have to add macros and possibly other cheats. Just stop playing the game, obviously you are a loser without your little macro crap.

 

Confirmed for mad.

 

Macros are for baddies anyways.

Edited December 11, 2014 by FoE_Khorne

[randiesel]

I'm an old school conceal/scrapper who just "returned" or more accurately went back to see the current state of the class. I don't see how anyone is enjoying the class, or probably even pvp as a whole, anymore. Conceal actually is way better damage then it used to be, and with KP you can keep yourself up a good deal, but the heart of the class is long gone, and as others have mentioned it just feels boring.

 

Couple that with how nasty PTs/Sorcs are, and even sins and veng juggs, and I just can't see why anyone is boasting about op performance. It feels stronger in arenas now than wzs, but overall it's incredibly boring and lackluster. It might be as well that in my hiatus I've also taken up pvp in other games outside of MMOs for a change, and I feel the inherent skill cap for this game's pvp (being low) weighing in on my judgement, but I can't help but feel the class lost its heart and/or sole. It's definitely a lot better for someone playing as a lone wolf, especially those who've been waiting almost 3 years since launch to get that play style back, so I can see how people might be rejoicing since it is at least "ok" in pvp, but come on, it's far from great.

 

Plus, I can see that I have very low tolerance for bad programming in his game anymore. I can't say how many times I got stuck while leveling in Rishi. I don't recall having such a hard time in Makeb in 2.0, the polish is nowhere present on the current installment, and personally I don't see how I can put money into something that is not refined.

[Milchmann]

One of the biggest issues: to get in stealth.

After ending a combat the combat status remains aktiv, even if i use vanish.

Periodic damage effects keep me infight. E.G "overwhelmed" remains 45 sec. For this time cant get into stealth.

 

CD of backblast is to long. After fighting a mob i have to wait until CD is ready.

Scrapper has become boring. Bioware has destroyed the class i have played 3 years long.

[randiesel]

Yeah, I think you're right. I think I barely even use stealth anymore, save for the beginning of a war zone. The identity of the class is gone. I've resolved to deleting there game and leaving it indefinitely this time. Cheers.

[gofortheko]

you guys complaining are funny.

[Fellow-Canadian]

Scrapper in PVP is pretty sad right now. The class doesn't deal enough burst to be considered a glass cannon and it can't survive in a fight against most classes. You seriously need to be left alone to deal enough damage to kill most people.

 

The removal of underworld medicine and introduction of hots hurt big time. It kills our damage if we have to use 2 gcds to apply hots coming out of stealth.

 

Honestly I don't feel this class is viable for PVP when there are so many better options available.

[JFoxstride]

Scrapper in PVP is pretty sad right now. The class doesn't deal enough burst to be considered a glass cannon and it can't survive in a fight against most classes. You seriously need to be left alone to deal enough damage to kill most people.

 

The removal of underworld medicine and introduction of hots hurt big time. It kills our damage if we have to use 2 gcds to apply hots coming out of stealth.

 

Honestly I don't feel this class is viable for PVP when there are so many better options available.

 

Yeah. And on top of that, the spec is not fun anymore. Blood Boil makes absolutely no sense regarding to the theme of the spec itself. Think I'm moving to Ruffian, see if it feels more like a true scoundrel.

[Faolon]

Scrapper in PVP is pretty sad right now. The class doesn't deal enough burst to be considered a glass cannon and it can't survive in a fight against most classes. You seriously need to be left alone to deal enough damage to kill most people.

 

The removal of underworld medicine and introduction of hots hurt big time. It kills our damage if we have to use 2 gcds to apply hots coming out of stealth.

 

Honestly I don't feel this class is viable for PVP when there are so many better options available.

 

 

 

I actually enjoy the way concealment plays, I just feel the damage is far too low.

 

I did some PvP as Concealment and honestly, it felt like I was hitting people with one of those pool noodles. I was attacking this sorc healer and she could sit there tanking my attacks, without moving, and still heal her team without issue. It wasn't until a Sorc DPS from my team started attacking the healer that she had cause for concern. Volatile substance just couldn't do anything to even help.

 

I tried Lethality, thinking maybe that would end better. While I did end up doing more damage (over 100k more damage), I still just wasn't able to do enough damage to really be a threat to anyone who was actually paying attention to me. I mean if they ignored me and let me plink away at them, I could get them close to death. However, all it took is for them to realize I was there and I'd die before being able to finish them off.

 

 

Things go so much better on my Juggernaut.