SWTOR 3.1 -or- a tree is more beautiful than a railroad, but freedom is the best

[Chazcon]

Well with SWTOR 3.0 BioWare took away the skill tree system and replaced it with a railroad system with fewer player choices, and has caused an uproar among the hardcore players. I'm one of them and I'm with them, a large part of what I enjoy in an MMO game is the complexity and challenge. Yes, the harder the game is to learn, understand, and play, the better I like it. I want the learning curve to be steep and the encounters, missions, dungeons, bosses etc. to be progressively more difficult and challenging. When I or my team kills a boss I want to know we earned it through our intelligent use of tactics and teamwork, but also by gearing up and building our characters in a way that makes us most effective.

 

In a recent study of major MMO games, it was found that the player base is made up of approx. 14% end-game raid players, 8% PvP players, and 78% casual players. So that's roughly 22% of players that could be called 'hardcore' and 78% 'casual'. A casual player is one who buys and/or subscribes to an MMO, logs in for short amounts of time, does not typically dedicate themselves to a large play-time investment, but who do tend to trade money for time in online stores. Casuals don't enjoy complexity, they typically do not have the time available in their lives to invest in a game that hardcore players do. They want to log in, socialize, do a little crafting, work on their characters' gear a bit, run a mission or two and log. It's immediately apparent (and no surprise in 2014) that casuals are the bread and butter, the cash cows of the MMO industry.

 

This is exactly why you see this now-typical business model of MMO games: Media talk, trailers and teasers during development. New MMOs tend to entice the hardcore gamers first, because we stay in touch with the gaming world. Pre-orders to primarily verify interest to investors and stakeholders, and also generate some revenue. Release as a subscription model and typically without an F2P option or online store. This nets the majority of the hardcore gamers who have been eagerly anticipating release (and a certain number of casuals as well). The initial release of a modern MMO is usually pressured out by stakeholders, good game development is complex, not to mention expensive, and takes a long time. Stakeholders are typically non-gamers or casuals at best and become nervous as development costs and development time goes over budget. And it always does. Many game are released too soon, and we saw this with SWTOR. Later, an online store and F2P os introduced and by this point the player base is flooded or is flooding with casuals, and the 22%/78% equilibrium is established. From this point on the developers main goal is to preserve the player base and they do this by maintaining interest in the game, ratcheting up the level/gear grind (or buy), and introducing new content.

 

Back to the subject of my post. Why did BioWare switch to discipline system? BioWare: "We don’t have time to balance the damage of all the different hybrids. We kill hybrids and the last one we killed was DoTsmash. We have time to test the 24 disciplines but not the time to test all the possible hybrids specs." Really. Well you can read 'we don't have time' as 'we don't want to spend or invest money'. Which is a shame, but it comes back to why we as hardcore gamers are continually disappointed in how MMO games are 'dumbed down' or simplified over time to cater to the casual gamers. And you can't argue with the game companies, who are after all a business, and are driven to minimize costs and maximize profits. Too bad a company didn't build, release and maintain an MMO game with the goal of making adequate, not maximum profit, and stayed true to the game itself, more as an art form than as a business model.

 

So the new railroad system totally sucks. BioWare, why did you even give us 'Utility' skills? Surely you could have saved yourselves a ton of time and money by simply giving us three buttons, such as (for a Vanguard), Shield Specialist, Tactics and Assault. "Please choose your speciality" Click. Boom all set up. I mean, seriously, what you have given us is pathetically pre-scripted, Easy Button, vanilla pudding blah that makes me want to puke. And not log in. And quit playing. And un-sub. And I'm not the only one, but the fact is from BioWare's point of view even if half the hardcores quit in disgust that's not a game-changing hit to their bottom line. That's 11% of the player base, and hardcores don't tend to spend money in online stores the way casuals do. Again, they are catering to the customers that will generate the most profits for them. Casuals don't care if you give them steak or rice pudding, as long as it's easy to scrape off into their mouths, they will clean their plate and ask for more.

 

---

 

OK so what about a solution? Don't just identify the problem and *****, bring a solution, right? Here's mine:

 

SWTOR 3.1

 

We have heard your concerns regarding the replacement of the skill tree system with the new Disciplines system. And we care! We listen to our players. We know that as a player you want more freedom to create your characters in a unique way. The next patch will address these issues and provide unique character building selections and choices. These are the changes that will be implemented in 3.1:

 

1) The Disciplines system and also the old Skill Tree system will be no more! They will be replaced with the Character Build system. Each character will have a list of talents from the old discipline/skill tree system. Each talent will have a point cost assigned to it. Based on level, each character will have a total amount of points to spend on talents. Talents can be mixed and matched in any combination, limited only by the available points your character has to spend. This can result in some very interesting combinations and character builds! The new system will give players total freedom to create and type of character they want, within the limits of the character class.

 

2) The new Character Build system will also include three Build Presets for players that want to start with a recommended build for their play style. For example, a Trooper Vanguard will have a Shield Specialist, Tactics and Assault preset, each of which will have your talents already selected. You can select a Build Preset and start playing without putting together individual talents. Of course, you can customize your Character Build at any time.

 

3) Also added to the new Character Build system will be the ability to save build selections. Each player will have up to ten (10) Character Build Save slots, where you can save your custom builds and even name them. These are in addition to the Character Build Presets that come with each character.

 

4) Players can switch between Character Build Presets and Saves with the click of a button. The ability to change Character Builds will be limited in some instances, encounters and warzones.

 

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[Ashlockheart]

I agree with this post.

[dbears]

They spent months and months working on the Disciplines system.. do you really think because a handful of outspoken people who don't like it and want it changed, they're going to?

 

Didn't think so..

 

I'm willing to bet for every 1 person that's taking the time to post about how much they hate it on the forums, there are countless others who either don't care about the change or like it.

 

Disciplines is here to stay..

 

Stop wasting your time and get used to it.

[TheDurken]

These complaints are easy to make when you're not the one footing the bill.

[MadHobbit]

First good post,second source for you recent survey. I played City of Heroes and City of Villians(was beta tester for COV). COH was designed as a PVE ,and it was not until after a while they back inserted the PVP,lot of nerfs,redos on powers,and a lot of pain for players. Then they put in a rule of diminishing returns on enhancments, before you could put up to 6 of one type in a power,they cut it back to 3. There was a mission you could do called the Hamiliton,which took 36 players to defeat a large blob. It dropped special enhancments that would give you a boost of 50% to two different stats in a power like damage/recharge (just example). They thought players would do maybe 1-3 of this missions,then create new chars,well a lot did not and farmed them for a great while ,and soon became "Godlike"

imaging a tank with 3 defence powers that had 6 +50%damage reduction/end in each.. They finally did reduce them from50% to 33% but still were very powerful.(The 6 in one power was before the only 3 of same type nerf)

i played a force field powered hero,and would do 8 person missions, and we would have 2 with force field to cover the team. any attack woudl have to do a to hit againest the first force field,then if go thru would have to roll againest the second. needless to say the healer in the group did not have to do much but was still needed. they finally nerfed that so the second did not give as much coverage.

 

The above were examples of how the devs sometime miss what tricky or great ideas the players will come up with.

 

I personally hate the new stuff,and in 4 months when my sub runs out I may switch to another game.I can NOT see them doing anything different til maybe 4.0, what Boss of a project worth millions of dollars is going to go to his boss and say "I made a mistake,and wasted lots of project time and money" Tera online did do that and fired the devs and brought in new ones.

 

There are rumors of a SWTOR 2.0 on the net,not saying if they are true or not, but maybe this new skill system is the model T of the one in the next game

[CaliOrion]

The big problem remains "balance" (although personally, I don't understand why balance even should be a thing. You don't like that class X out-parses you? Then go roll up a class X, ffs.)

 

If they give you freedom to actually meaningfully affect your character's combat ability, then one of two things happen:

1. "Hardcore" players with well-constructed builds out-perform "casual" players who are using the pre-defined progression, and the under-performing players cry about it.

2. The pre-defined progression simply is "The Best" progression; in which case, there's no point of being able to customize. There's a small minority out there who will still enjoy making gimmick characters that are more "fun" (or funny) and less "powerful," but not enough to base a major MMO off of.

 

The problem is that you simply cannot make both sides happy. The closest thing to a solution I can offer is to either MMO-hop (my personal choice, even though I admit I'm always sad to leave my characters behind) or play something that has a history of refusing to compromise on the complexity of the game, even if it means remaining a niche market.

[Grayseven]

If you are truly a "hardcore player" then you had the exact same build as every other "hardcore player". If you weren't running the most optimized build computed through parses and combat logs then you were a detriment to your raid group.

 

You didn't have any freedom, you didn't have the ability to choose anything, you and the myriad of other players of your advanced class had the exact same build.

 

You had the illusion of choice, but the reality is that you really had none at all.

 

Hybrids are a different beast and most MMO's do everything in their power to break them as they provide too many unintended consequences.

 

So rant, rail against the powers that be...whatever. Just realize that no amount of rage will matter, because you haven't really lost anything at all. Your "freedom" was nothing more than a lie that is now being used by a few people to complain...simply to complain.

[MillionsKNives]

Well with SWTOR 3.0 BioWare took away the skill tree system and replaced it with a railroad system with fewer player choices, and has caused an uproar among the hardcore players.

 

Stopped reading here. If you're a hardcore player then disciplines changed nothing for you. If you're a hardcore player you should have been using pure specs anyway because they're better. Any hardcore player knows that.

[Eldrenath]

Well with SWTOR 3.0 BioWare took away the skill tree system and replaced it with a railroad system with fewer player choices, and has caused an uproar among the hardcore players.

 

Stopped reading right there. Once again, typical MMO gamer nonsense: I don't like that, and I see that other people don't like that, therefore ALL people don't like that.

 

I'm fairly hardcore: I don't PvP and don't do NiM, but I do ops regularly and play very often, maybe 5 nights a week (though many nights its only an hour at most). I'd have read your opinion if you'd said "has caused an uproar among SOME hardcore players". Because I'm in a very big guild with MANY hardcore players and heard nothing but positive things all night last night.

 

Furthermore, after actually playing with the content last night I became firmly convinced that I now have more REAL choices and few, if any, fake BS non-choices. I have access to more stuff than I used to and don't have to spend 90% of my skill points on stupid "+2/+4/+6% accuracy" type stuff that we all take anyway. Now I get to choose cool utilities and passives that USED to be buried deep in off-spec trees.

 

I'll agree that nearly all hybrid players are up in arms, because if you played hybrid your spec is completely gone. But last night, every character I played was almost identical to how they were in 3.0--the only difference was I got access to some new utilities and passives I never got before.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Eldrenath

[Genhidro]

...

Disciplines is here to stay..

....

But how many paying players will stay?

 

...

Stop wasting your time and get used to it.

It doesn't work like that. Its a game, entertainment. It's not that anyone needs it so badly you'd force yourself to like it. You take or you leave.

 

It's OK if some like a game or not and leave. Problem is if the number of "likes" drops so low that game can not sustain it self anymore. Then even those that say "if you hate it, go away" also can't play because servers shut down.

 

Fans lose the most in this situation. They actually like it.

[CmdrShpd]

I love how the OP seems to think that this new system could somehow be implemented--and balanced!--by the time that 3.1 comes out.

[Grayseven]

But how many paying players will stay?

 

 

It doesn't work like that. Its a game, entertainment. It's not that anyone needs it so badly you'd force yourself to like it. You take or you leave.

 

It's OK if some like a game or not and leave. Problem is if the number of "likes" drops so low that game can not sustain it self anymore. Then even those that say "if you hate it, go away" also can't play because servers shut down.

 

Fans lose the most in this situation. They actually like it.

 

The only players this game will lose are the ones that they would have lost anyway for some other made up reason only they and a few like them can fathom.

 

You have more freedom of choice with the utilities than you ever had with the tree builds unless you were playing a hybrid for some odd purpose. And since MMO's hate hybrids, they would have been broken somehow anyway.

 

For every loud mouth calling out hatred are hundreds of people playing the game because they realize there was really no change in their AC. So there won't be any servers shutting down, and there won't be a mass exodus. There will just be a few people whining while the rest of us enjoy the game.

[OddballEasyEight]

Stopped reading here. If you're a hardcore player then disciplines changed nothing for you. If you're a hardcore player you should have been using pure specs anyway because they're better. Any hardcore player knows that.

 

This man speaks the truth.

 

(and anyone who knows my posting history with this man will know I rarely agree with him)

[justinplainview]

I almost never make snarky comments to outlandish ideas, but considering the idea is based on a false premise of "not that much choice" compared to what we used to have... I'm just going to assume you're either high or a troll. If you wanted to play the game correctly (read that as playing your character in the best possible way) then there was quite literally the same amount of choice, the only difference is that a respec took 40+ clicks instead of 7. And if you say "BUT THEY TOOK OUR HYBRIDS" I'll simply say thank the maker. Tank hybrids trivialized damage profiles of NiM raids, the pvp hybrids completely ****ed the balance of ranked PVP, and outside of Sniper hybrid, every other hybrid was either so stupidly overpowered that they had to go out of their way to kill it (dotsmash) or it wasn't worth bothering with, and nobody with any real level of skill would bother using it for important content (the sorc dps hybrids). Now, if you're saying as someone who did SOLO content only and never did any competitive PVP or PVE beyond flashpoints that you don't have as much choice because you enjoyed speccing 15/15/16 or some other goofy variation to finish your Oricon dailies, then yeah, your goofy silly specs are gone. But you weren't playing the game properly in the first place if that was the case.

 

Disciplines DO streamline the class build process. They do. It's easier to balance because hybrids don't exist anymore. And that's okay. Because if you actually look at the amount of utilities in almost every class, you'll find most of the stuff you cared about taking is available for all 3 specs.

[AmericanNate]

But how many paying players will stay?

 

 

It doesn't work like that. Its a game, entertainment. It's not that anyone needs it so badly you'd force yourself to like it. You take or you leave.

 

It's OK if some like a game or not and leave. Problem is if the number of "likes" drops so low that game can not sustain it self anymore. Then even those that say "if you hate it, go away" also can't play because servers shut down.

 

Fans lose the most in this situation. They actually like it.

 

Maybe you missed the part where the devs started the vast majority of players were picking the exact same skills in the exact same order, indicating that they were going with tried and true pure builds anyway. Which is MORE than just the hardcore players, so this was the result. They actually made a change that was indicated by the players in the game. So, for the vast majority, it seems nothing will change.

[Kelindar]

Remember when WoW got rid of their skill trees and everyone quit and the game died?

[Diefenbaker]

Later, an online store and F2P os introduced and by this point the player base is flooded or is flooding with casuals,

And that is complete nonsense.

 

Casual players always make the majority, even without F2P. That's a simple fact. It's the casual players who bring most money. No MMO could survive on hardcore players alone. There are simply not enough of those. But I get it, those filthy casuals, ruining your elitist game experience. Yeah, this form of "argument" appears in every MMO in regular intervals, and in 2014 it's only one thing: BORING!

 

Also, disciplines will stay. And most people will also stay. Live with it.

 

The tree doesn't offer you the freedom you imagine, it railroads just the same, because only certain cookie-cutter builds will be found for maximum efficiency by min/maxers. Sure, you can spend your points into whatever you want to go, but will it get you anywhere? Nope. Cookie-cutter builds and massive raildroading are the result of skill trees. There are websites and spreadsheets full of those where people analyze what is the best build and the best rotation at any given patch level in any random MMO, and those builds are the ones you have to use to get anywhere.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Diefenbaker

[AmericanNate]

Remember when WoW got rid of their skill trees and everyone quit and the game died?

 

For a quick second, I thought of that scene in the water boy

"Remember the time B b b Bobby B b Voucher came back in the second half, and the M Muddogs w won da Bourbon Bowl do ya !?" lol

[Diefenbaker]

Also, WoW is dead?

 

WoW is still the MMO flagship and if you think WoW is dead, you haven't been around during the WoD launch. Pure. Chaos.

 

But yeah, WoW is dead, nobody plays it anymore because of the skill system change. Don't bring any actual proof for that, just keep pushing that emotional hyperbole and outright hysteria, that's how we do arguments in the 21s century. Ignore all facts, bank on emotions. Well done.

[ninjonxb]

I love how the OP seems to think that this new system could somehow be implemented--and balanced!--by the time that 3.1 comes out.

 

Well considering

Each character will have a list of talents from the old discipline/skill tree system. Each talent will have a point cost assigned to it. Based on level, each character will have a total amount of points to spend on talents. Talents can be mixed and matched in any combination, limited only by the available points your character has to spend. This can result in some very interesting combinations and character builds! The new system will give players total freedom to create and type of character they want, within the limits of the character class.

 

I don't think balance is a concern. Since there is no way in hell this system will ever be balanced.

 

 

As stated many times in both this game and in WoW. The skill trees were always an illusion of choice to begin with.

The vast majority of the "hardcore" group did not care to actually have a hardcore attitude about their classes just just "acted the part" and went into raids on a consistent schedule.

They went online and read guilds that told them the exact cookie cutter spec to play, the exact rotation to do, and even the exact gear they should put on. These cookie cutter builds MAYBE give you a few points that you can choose where to put yourself.

There is nothing hardcore about reading those guides and following what everyone else is telling you to do.

 

Now there are true hardcore players who wrote those guides and theory craft. But we are talking about less then 1% of people.

 

Then we have the people who don't read guilds or anything. Don't want to spend the time figuring out their class (or try to but for one reason or another they just don't get it right, in which case I still give them credit for trying). They join a raid group and the raid leader kicks them out as soon as they realize they are not following a specific build, gear, and rotation as outlined online.

 

Bioware knows this. Blizzard knows this. There is no reason for these companies to spend time trying to balance an archaic system when the vast majority of the "hardcore" players are just going to continue to do cookie cutter builds.

 

So Bioware did the same thing that Blizzard did. And made everyone cookie cutter and boiled down the skills removing the illusion of choice. Now you actually choose the utilities that the guides may have allowed you to choose based on your play style.

 

There are still some cases of utilities are are best for tanks or healers. But there is some actual choice in there.

 

Blizzard also realized that hybrids are a nightmare for balance when Cataclysm came out. At that point they kept the skill trees but forced you to stay within a specific tree (further emphasizing the illusion of choice). It is next to impossible that every possible combination of rotation and points in a tree can be tested before a change is made to ensure balance.

[Ryllynyth]

Also, WoW is dead?

 

WoW is still the MMO flagship and if you think WoW is dead, you haven't been around during the WoD launch. Pure. Chaos.

 

But yeah, WoW is dead, nobody plays it anymore because of the skill system change. Don't bring any actual proof for that, just keep pushing that emotional hyperbole and outright hysteria, that's how we do arguments in the 21s century. Ignore all facts, bank on emotions. Well done.

 

Pretty sure his point was that changing its skill system didn't kill WoW.

 

In fact I'd be willing to bet money that there were nearly identical fits posted on WoW forums when the change was made there.

[CaptainLunch]

Remember when WoW got rid of their skill trees and everyone quit and the game died?

 

The way wow changed their talent trees was fundamentally different than the discipline system. Swtor took the specs (i.e. vigilance) as is and put the core game play and abilities into a discipline that you can choose. They then took the fluff out of all three skill trees and put it into the utilities section. This allowed bw to make some balance changes and core changes (vanguard dps) that are actually pretty nice.

 

In contrast wow took most core abilities from all three specs and put them into the things that you choose for all specs and kept the fluff and game play (for the most part) locked to the spec you choose. As an example, I was pissed when I was allowed to use combustion (big firey explosion dot thing) as a frost mage.

 

And to the point of, "Hardcore raiders don't like disciplines" I love the system; not only do I love the system, it doesn't matter if I didn't because bw stepped up and made some pretty friggen' fantastic ops that I'm happy to be putting time into because they are actually pretty entertaining unlike the last tier.

[Ferrnitty]

This is b/s.....Ali bioware did was eliminate the skills in the tree no one ever picked anyways. You Hanne exactly as many choices and in actuality MORE flexibility now than b4. People just like to cry foul. Edited December 7, 2014 by Ferrnitty

[Suromir]

yah not gonna happen. Welcome to the minority of a minority.

 

moving on.

[jedimessiah]

Well done post, couldn't agree more. To all those saying if you are hardcore you ran with one spec.

Yea no, you just did what you were told in a youtube video/webpage. I changed my spec depending on the fight/encounter. Merc healer/Jugg Tank. Each had two specs I'd use to optimize situational utilities/dps/ehps.

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