Kaggath Battlegrounds Semi-Finals: IDD vs Fist of the Empire vs Phantom Hegemony

[Silenceo]

Just wanted to point out before I get into the other points Aurbere, that Shadow Droids are essentially human minds severely augmented with advanced cybernetics as well as the dark side, which will help to curb what you describe as limiting their effectiveness. As for the rest, re-reading a few times first.

 

Side Note: Trying to fight essentially the 'Jesus' of Droids with droids, not going to go well...

Edited November 30, 2014 by Silenceo

[Aurbere]

Just wanted to point out before I get into the other points Aurbere, that Shadow Droids are essentially human minds severely augmented with advanced cybernetics as well as the dark side, which will help to curb what you describe as limiting their effectiveness. As for the rest, re-reading a few times first.

 

It's still a bunch of information they have to deal with, coming in from multiple sources at a time. It's one of the reasons the Central Control Computer used by the Trade Federation is so limited, because it has to deal with information coming in from countless units, and you can bet the CCC has more processing power than a cyborg.

[Silenceo]

It's still a bunch of information they have to deal with, coming in from multiple sources at a time. It's one of the reasons the Central Control Computer used by the Trade Federation is so limited, because it has to deal with information coming in from countless units, and you can bet the CCC has more processing power than a cyborg.

 

Except each shadow droid is only controlling 4 other droids. The CCC had to manage THOUSANDS. It is well within their capabilities, not to mention the TIE/D were designed specifically for control from other sources.

 

Side Note: It is also good to note that point defense cannons are SIGNIFICANTLY less powerful than laser cannons. So actually the Tartans are not as out classed as you may think, but then Trench is a very defensive minded tactician and will likely keep them in defensive positions, using the Vengeance for most of the heavy hitting. I should also mention it has 10 twin long range ion cannon batteries.

 

After Thought: Also, don't get me started on the Lucrehulks terrible firing arcs.

Edited November 30, 2014 by Silenceo

[Aurbere]

Except each shadow droid is only controlling 4 other droids. The CCC had to manage THOUSANDS. It is well within their capabilities, not to mention the TIE/D were designed specifically for control from other sources.

 

I don't think you are getting it.

 

The amount of information that these droids will have to process is insane. They are severely outnumbered, being attacked from multiple sources of fighters, being attacked by a ton of ship-based anti-fighter weaponry, getting hit with EMPs, and a whole lot more.

 

What the droids have to do is process all of this information, sort through countless of responses, predict the outcome of each of those responses, and then make that response. And then the cycle starts again, and again, and again.

 

And when I say countless, we're talking hundreds, even thousands of responses. And then even more options for each of those responses.

 

That is what they are dealing with. Savvy?

 

Edit: Actually, there might actually be millions of responses to sort through.

Edited November 30, 2014 by Aurbere

[Aurbere]

Side Note: It is also good to note that point defense cannons are SIGNIFICANTLY less powerful than laser cannons. So actually the Tartans are not as out classed as you may think, but then Trench is a very defensive minded tactician and will likely keep them in defensive positions, using the Vengeance for most of the heavy hitting. I should also mention it has 10 twin long range ion cannon batteries.

 

After Thought: Also, don't get me started on the Lucrehulks terrible firing arcs.

 

It has over 500 laser cannons, all of the Tartans together have 480.

 

Math FTW!

[Silenceo]

I don't think you are getting it.

 

The amount of information that these droids will have to process is insane. They are severely outnumbered, being attacked from multiple sources of fighters, being attacked by a ton of ship-based anti-fighter weaponry, getting hit with EMPs, and a whole lot more.

 

What the droids have to do is process all of this information, sort through countless of responses, predict the outcome of each of those responses, and then make that response. And then the cycle starts again, and again, and again.

 

And when I say countless, we're talking hundreds, even thousands of responses. And then even more options for each of those responses.

 

That is what they are dealing with. Savvy?

 

Whats with the 'Savvy' lately Aurbere?

 

Though you make it sound like the IDD fighters would go on the offensive, which we all know would be suicidal due to numbers. Even then though, the Shadow Droids are augmented beyond anything an organic could hope to match, and each one of them is an Imperial Ace, which if you check the quotes In that opening post, that is pretty impressive.

 

As for all of these responses, you are thinking as if it was a droid controlling the TIE/D's through the shadow droids *which are really cyborgs*. They will not go through thousands of responses every second. Essentially what their advanced cybernetics will allow them to do, with little strain due to using the TIE/D's inbuilt processing power once they have access to it, is to control 5 ships at once as they would if they were flying each one. What this means is that it won't be going through each response as an droid pilot would, the Shadow Droid would operate normally. However, the TIE/D under its control would act very much like an organic pilot that didn't have to worry about G-Forces, and had highly advanced skills. All the while working in perfect coordination within that group. While that group is orchestrated by IG-88 to ensure the fighter battle as a grand scheme goes well.

Edited November 30, 2014 by Silenceo

[Silenceo]

It has over 500 laser cannons, all of the Tartans together have 480.

 

Math FTW!

 

Meh, I looked at the wrong armament I guess.

 

Still, Tartans have advanced targeting systems whereas the Lucrehulks are outdated and never really shown to be that terribly much of a threat. Still the spread while thicker than most, wouldn't be able to bring to bear the majority of them at once.

 

Just so this isn't lost without being answered...

 

I also would question two things that are possible pre-battle upgrades:

 

Buzz Droid Missiles for Skiprays:

 

The Commerce Guild was incredibly influential when it came to the CIS movement, and as such had access to just such droids. Despite the clone wars being over, it is very possible they could still acquire plenty for use by the IDD. If not, then I can merely use the turned tri-fighters.

 

Jamming Tech for Skiprays:

 

It was relatively simple to be implemented into Skiprays and has been done in the past by the Zann Consortium. This tech actually could originate from the Inquisitorious due to their jobs as hunting down Jedi and moving undetected. Not to mention that as an incredibly elite branch of Intelligence, it would be a common piece of equipment.

 

Edited November 30, 2014 by Silenceo

[Selenial]

I don't think you are getting it.

 

The amount of information that these droids will have to process is insane. They are severely outnumbered, being attacked from multiple sources of fighters, being attacked by a ton of ship-based anti-fighter weaponry, getting hit with EMPs, and a whole lot more.

 

What the droids have to do is process all of this information, sort through countless of responses, predict the outcome of each of those responses, and then make that response. And then the cycle starts again, and again, and again.

 

And when I say countless, we're talking hundreds, even thousands of responses. And then even more options for each of those responses.

 

That is what they are dealing with. Savvy?

 

Edit: Actually, there might actually be millions of responses to sort through.

Actually, I don't think you quite understand

 

Watcher's from Imperial Intelligence are actually the best comparison, they worked for countless hours on end, Watcher 2's record being 48 hours IIRC, with her successors longer, simply because their cybernetic augmentation took such a strain off their brain that they could last that long.

 

They were so advanced, that they could actually comprehend transmission coding to the point that they saw lines in Holonet transmitters that normal people could not, like, that's like looking at Blue, and just seeing green and yellow mixed together, that's frightening anatomic capability.

[Selenial]

Meh, I looked at the wrong armament I guess.

 

Still, Tartans have advanced targeting systems whereas the Lucrehulks are outdated and never really shown to be that terribly much of a threat. Still the spread while thicker than most, wouldn't be able to bring to bear the majority of them at once.

 

Just so this isn't lost without being answered...

 

Indeed, a Lucrehulk has a far wider spread than the Tartans, and firing angles and maneuver speeds are crucial.

 

However it is a good point from Aurbere.

 

I'm waiting for the others to give reasons why you shouldn't get that at the moment, if they can't come up with any it's all yours.

[Silenceo]

Actually, I don't think you quite understand

 

Watcher's from Imperial Intelligence are actually the best comparison, they worked for countless hours on end, Watcher 2's record being 48 hours IIRC, with her successors longer, simply because their cybernetic augmentation took such a strain off their brain that they could last that long.

 

They were so advanced, that they could actually comprehend transmission coding to the point that they saw lines in Holonet transmitters that normal people could not, like, that's like looking at Blue, and just seeing green and yellow mixed together, that's frightening anatomic capability.

 

Sel gets it! Though, I would argue the Shadow Droids cybernetic augmentations might have been more advanced, not to mention the ability to touch the dark side as a sixth sense.

[Aurbere]

Actually, I don't think you quite understand

 

Watcher's from Imperial Intelligence are actually the best comparison, they worked for countless hours on end, Watcher 2's record being 48 hours IIRC, with her successors longer, simply because their cybernetic augmentation took such a strain off their brain that they could last that long.

 

They were so advanced, that they could actually comprehend transmission coding to the point that they saw lines in Holonet transmitters that normal people could not, like, that's like looking at Blue, and just seeing green and yellow mixed together, that's frightening anatomic capability.

 

Hm, slightly different, but fair point. My next post will make my point more clear.

Edited November 30, 2014 by Aurbere

[Silenceo]

Indeed, a Lucrehulk has a far wider spread than the Tartans, and firing angles and maneuver speeds are crucial.

 

However it is a good point from Aurbere.

 

I'm waiting for the others to give reasons why you shouldn't get that at the moment, if they can't come up with any it's all yours.

 

Just saying, able to keep pace with X-wings as a capital ship...

 

I never said it wasn't a good point, merely that there are variables to be taken into account, which is part of why I love Imperial vessels!

 

I... I can?! It is only a matter of time now...

[Beniboybling]

With the power of Dromund Kaas at Lumiya's disposal, I'm afraid both the Fist of the Empire and the Imperial Droid Division are going to find themselves at a crippling disadvantage.

 

The why? Well, allow me to reveal to you my faction's namesake.

 

Lumiya’s deadly ace: the Force phantom

Force phantoms were the product of an elaborate Sith ritual that allowed the darksider to create lifelike apparitions from the siphoned Force energy of another life form, irrespective of sentience, and project them across the expanse of the cosmos...

 

...Their insidious nature was only revealed when they were destroyed, at which time the being or creature to which the phantom was anchored also perished...

 

...The extracted essence was then given corporeal form and shaped into whatever likeness the creator desired, to travel wherever in the galaxy the conjurer chose. Force sensitives who concentrated saw a phantom’s arrival fill their vision, while beings who had not expected one’s presence were startled by the sudden appearance. Those not attuned to the Force witnessed a shimmering form develop right before their eyes...

 

...From espionage to harassment of the enemy and even simple communication, Force phantoms were a practical means to a variety of ends. Conjurers frequently appeared as themselves, with full access to their breadth of Force abilities and lightsaber skill and fully capable of inflicting harm. They usually materialised in their true form, at times physically-enhanced or not in their particular likeness at all. Darksiders commonly attacked their foes by projecting multiple simultaneous phantoms, such as swarms of creatures like mynocks, forcing the quarry to divide their attention while also defending themselves. Those followers of the Jedi way who were unfamiliar with the phenomena mistook phantoms for Force ghosts. When their true nature was revealed, Jedi were especially confounded, given the potential innocence of the beings to whom each apparition was attached; damage suffered by the phantom was in turn transferred to the life it was anchored to. Manifestations of loved ones also worked to bewilder the creator’s adversaries and challenged the sanity of non-Force sensitives, who rationalised the occurrences as ghost sightings or close encounters with “phantoms of the mind.”

 

...The power was developed and perfected by the Dark Lord Darth Vectivus, and much later—by 40 ABY—the technique had been thought lost among modern Sith. On the contrary, the rituals for conjuring Force phantoms had been discovered and mastered by the Sith Lady Lumiya...

 

--Taken from Wookieepedia

In order to draw on the power of the Force Phantoms, Lumiya required the dark side reservoir imbued in Lumiya's asteroid retreat, fortunately Dromund Kaas is "bristling with the energy of the dark side" so Lumiya can summon these phantoms with impunity, be afraid my friends, be very afraid. Because Lumiya will no doubt exercise this power.

 

Her first targets will be the enemy commanders, Rycus Kilran and Admiral Trench. By eliminating them, and taking temporary control over their flagships, Lumiya can send their fleets into disarray, and have Grievous wipe them out.

 

The plan will be simply, first provide a distraction. Lumiya can summon illusions of a powerful strike team of Sith onto both flagships, forcing each commander's respective bodyguards to leave their posts to tackle the threat. As soon as Lumiya can confirm their absence she'll project another illusion into the command centers themselves, posing as the returning bodyguards, having successfully dispatched the threat, before cutting them down without warning.

 

Both the Vengeance and the Sovereign, two extremely powerful warships, will fall under Lumiya's control. And with her phantoms being fully capable of interacting with their environment, including mental manipulation of targets, taking control the bridge and turning the flagships against the cruisers around them will be an easy task.

 

==================================================

 

With this objective in mind, Lumiya will order Grievous to hold his forces back. No doubt employing a similar strategy as before to capitalise on the strengths of his fleet by creating a wall of suppressing fire.

 

To remind and reiterate:

Commerce guild destroyers, first used as privateers to harry Republic shipping, were soon sent to the front lines. Their prow turbolasers gave them significant punch at longer ranges, particularly when they were sent into battle in groups, while their lighter weapons and complements of droid starfighters provided an effective screen in close-range fighting. Ten and thousands of these ships supported the Separatists in countless battles across the galaxy, and the Republic captains learned that even Star Destroyers were endangered by the forward-facing guns of multiple Recusants

 

--Star Wars: The Essential Guide to Warfare

 

Legend

 

E – Escort carrier

 

M – Munificent-class

 

R – Recusant-class

 

S – Subjugator-class

 

 

< E E > --------- < E E > --------- < E E > --------- < E E > --------- < E E > --------- < E E >

< R > < M > < R > < M > < R > < M > < R > < M > < R > < M > < R > < M > < R > < M > < R >

< R > --------- < R > --------- < R > --------- < R > --------- < R > --------- < R > --------- < R > --------- < R >

 

 

^

-

-

S

-

-

v

 

Noting that a fan formation would be best suited to maximize firing arc and leave the fewest weak points.

With long-range cannons Grievous' fleet has the range advantage. And therefore can afford to stay stationary, forcing his opponents to move into range while being bombarded by turbolasers and ion cannons. Fighters can be fielded for the purpose of defense, adding to their already formidable array of point defence. Finally the Malevolence can be used as a shield to cover the fleet while Lumiya goes about the task of eliminating their commanders.

 

Once the deed is done, the the opposition plunges into chaos. Grievous will attack in earnest, the Malevolence will bear down on the enemy unopposed, fighters and rocket troopers will be fielded, and boarding parties will be deployed. The Hegemony already has enough firepower to contend with the enemy, without leadership they will fall.

 

P.S. In the advent that Lumiya is for whatever reason, unable to perform successful assassinations, she can still use the power of her Force phantoms to do crippling damage to the flagships, and take them out of the picture that way.

[Aurbere]

Hm, actually, after mulling it over, I'm actually wrong. I had thought that the Shadow Droid was controlling the TIEs. Oh well.

 

However, if Beni's IG plan is what I'm thinking it is, I wouldn't count on this strategy.

[Aurbere]

Indeed, a Lucrehulk has a far wider spread than the Tartans, and firing angles and maneuver speeds are crucial.

 

However it is a good point from Aurbere.

 

I'm waiting for the others to give reasons why you shouldn't get that at the moment, if they can't come up with any it's all yours.

 

No to Jamming tech, imo. Ship-based jamming tech and personal jamming tech is different, and I'm assuming the Inquisitors wouldn't have access to that level of jamming tech.

[Aurbere]

*snip*

 

Oh dear. Um, I'm not sure how I'm going to deal with that.

[Aurbere]

OK, Sel, how many Fury's do I get?

[Beniboybling]

As for IG-88, I will be posting my counter strategy shortly.

[Selenial]

OK, Sel, how many Fury's do I get?

 

50, but all Sith pilots.

 

I'll let you decide how good that makes them.

 

I could be persuaded to bring it up to 100, but meh.

Edited November 30, 2014 by Selenial

[Aurbere]

50, but all Sith pilots.

 

I'll let you decide how good that makes them.

 

I could be persuaded to bring it up to 100, but meh.

 

Well, 50 would be fair as they are made for Sith. Just as the number of Thunderclaps given was based on the number of SpecForce squads.

 

So 50 is fine with me.

[Silenceo]

No to Jamming tech, imo. Ship-based jamming tech and personal jamming tech is different, and I'm assuming the Inquisitors wouldn't have access to that level of jamming tech.

 

I am quite sure that Inquisitors had such devices installed on their personal star craft for the same reasons Imperial Agents did. Though if you won't budge on this point, it is also possible for the Commerce guild to supply them since Soro Suub is part of the Commerce Guild *essentially half of its main body* which one of their specialties was sensor equipment.

 

The best part about my space plan right now, is that it rely's on very little from Trench. The majority of it comes from IG-88. That said, question the guards leaving so readily, and Trench being unguarded by efficient killers. He wouldn't need to even send his own guards, just deploy other units. I mean, the ship is gigantic, and has LOTS of Marines. Not to mention that in order to do so, wouldn't Lumiya have to have studied the Praetor II's blue prints? Even if she was able to send them aboard, and they some how got into the control room, it is entirely possible that Desann is acting as Trench's personal guard during the space battle, since he failed Jerec on the ground last battle.

 

Also, while the Nexus does make Lumiya strong, it also empowers the other dark siders immensely as well. A Scholar such as Jerec I am sure would recognize the technique and have a suitable counter, though if not he could likely just alert Trench. While the Phantoms are indeed powerful, they are extremely taxing and nexus or not it will tire her after a few uses in such a short time. The thing to keep in mind is that didn't it take quite a bit of prep in order to setup the whole Phantom thing? Such would stop them from being spammed unless she had prep, but she did not.

 

Side Note: So Sel, how many ships do I get from the Commerce Guild?

Edited November 30, 2014 by Silenceo

[Canino]

"While an effective[2] and convenient ability, the mere ritualistic preparation of Force phantoms was an extremely exhausting process. The harvested life essence could do nothing to replenish the reserves of the darksider, and, without sufficient rest, the conjurer was beset with fatigue. Greater distance made the procedure additionally taxing, and prolonged long-range projection riddled the body with tremors as the creator struggled to maintain concentration. Because of the depleting nature of the technique, copious reserves of Force energy were required, usually those found in reservoirs of dark side power.[1] The inexperienced were compelled to sleep for days at a time as they built up the necessary tolerance to its effects.[3] If interrupted, the projection wavered as would a piece of fabric in a breeze; if focus was totally broken, or the creator was overextended, the illusion disappeared.[1] Phantoms were restricted to the gravitational standards of the world where the host was located[2] and were unable to fight with ranged weapons, instead forced to make do with the limits of their physical extensions.[3]

 

Various sensor applications were able to expose a Force phantom's duplicity; through preliminary examination, the apparitions radiated with considerably more haziness than actual flesh and blood. Infrared scrutiny revealed a monotonously consistent hue, much different from the spectrum of color emanated by living beings. Both radar and sonar pings revealed their nonexistence, as Force phantoms had no real mass to reflect the signals. Force-trained individuals saw not only what was projected, but also the life to which the phantom was attached."

 

Just wanted to drop that here. And this:

 

"Every phantom you see here, every one you encounter, is connected to something that is distinctly real, distinctly alive—though possibly far, far away."

"You're lying."

"No, I'm not. You struck, and somewhere, some creature, perhaps a baby bantha, squealed in pain and was severed, killed before the disbelieving eyes of its mother—"

"Stop it."

"Why? It's the truth. Baby banthas are quite cute, you know. A terrible shame to see one cut in half."

―Darth Vectivus explains the incongruity of Force phantoms to Nelani Dinn

That's right everyone! Beni likes to kill cute baby Banthas!!

[Aurbere]

I am quite sure that Inquisitors had such devices installed on their personal star craft for the same reasons Imperial Agents did. Though if you won't budge on this point, it is also possible for the Commerce guild to supply them since Soro Suub is part of the Commerce Guild *essentially half of its main body* which one of their specialties was sensor equipment.

 

The best part about my space plan right now, is that it rely's on very little from Trench. The majority of it comes from IG-88. That said, question the guards leaving so readily, and Trench being unguarded by efficient killers. He wouldn't need to even send his own guards, just deploy other units. I mean, the ship is gigantic, and has LOTS of Marines. Not to mention that in order to do so, wouldn't Lumiya have to have studied the Praetor II's blue prints? Even if she was able to send them aboard, and they some how got into the control room, it is entirely possible that Desann is acting as Trench's personal guard during the space battle, since he failed Jerec on the ground last battle.

 

Also, while the Nexus does make Lumiya strong, it also empowers the other dark siders immensely as well. A Scholar such as Jerec I am sure would recognize the technique and have a suitable counter, though if not he could likely just alert Trench. While the Phantoms are indeed powerful, they are extremely taxing and nexus or not it will tire her after a few uses in such a short time. The thing to keep in mind is that didn't it take quite a bit of prep in order to setup the whole Phantom thing? Such would stop them from being spammed unless she had prep, but she did not.

 

Side Note: So Sel, how many ships do I get from the Commerce Guild?

 

Well, if SoroSuub has jamming tech, then I'd be fine with it, though I think they would need to be shipped.

 

There are a few issues with Beni's Phantom plan that I will discuss later.

[Aurbere]

"While an effective[2] and convenient ability, the mere ritualistic preparation of Force phantoms was an extremely exhausting process. The harvested life essence could do nothing to replenish the reserves of the darksider, and, without sufficient rest, the conjurer was beset with fatigue. Greater distance made the procedure additionally taxing, and prolonged long-range projection riddled the body with tremors as the creator struggled to maintain concentration. Because of the depleting nature of the technique, copious reserves of Force energy were required, usually those found in reservoirs of dark side power.[1] The inexperienced were compelled to sleep for days at a time as they built up the necessary tolerance to its effects.[3] If interrupted, the projection wavered as would a piece of fabric in a breeze; if focus was totally broken, or the creator was overextended, the illusion disappeared.[1] Phantoms were restricted to the gravitational standards of the world where the host was located[2] and were unable to fight with ranged weapons, instead forced to make do with the limits of their physical extensions.[3]

 

Various sensor applications were able to expose a Force phantom's duplicity; through preliminary examination, the apparitions radiated with considerably more haziness than actual flesh and blood. Infrared scrutiny revealed a monotonously consistent hue, much different from the spectrum of color emanated by living beings. Both radar and sonar pings revealed their nonexistence, as Force phantoms had no real mass to reflect the signals. Force-trained individuals saw not only what was projected, but also the life to which the phantom was attached."

 

Just wanted to drop that here. And this:

 

"Every phantom you see here, every one you encounter, is connected to something that is distinctly real, distinctly alive—though possibly far, far away."

"You're lying."

"No, I'm not. You struck, and somewhere, some creature, perhaps a baby bantha, squealed in pain and was severed, killed before the disbelieving eyes of its mother—"

"Stop it."

"Why? It's the truth. Baby banthas are quite cute, you know. A terrible shame to see one cut in half."

―Darth Vectivus explains the incongruity of Force phantoms to Nelani Dinn

That's right everyone! Beni likes to kill cute baby Banthas!!

 

Beat me to it. Dangnabit, Canino, I wanted to be the one to post it!

[Silenceo]

Well, if SoroSuub has jamming tech, then I'd be fine with it, though I think they would need to be shipped.

 

There are a few issues with Beni's Phantom plan that I will discuss later.

 

Actually it would fall under pre-battle upgrades from suppliers.

 

Quite a few issues with phantoms indeed. Not really something that can just be fired off at will, at two separate targets no less, and even more, MULTIPLE phantoms! Each of which both leaders would have adequate guards, and brains, to defeat should they even come into play. More on this later.