After maxing out my crafting at Level 50, I can tell you its worthless...

[Enako]

The reason Blizzard is making wow easier and more accessible is because it gets them MORE players.. Its a simple fact that most of the playerbase is casual players, they dont want to craft, they dont want to have to learn how to play. They want to log on to the game for an hour every other day and have all the perks that the hardcore player who invest 6+ hours a day into the game.

 

quite so. but with a correction - the gamer base (it applies to all kinds of genres) does not 'not want' to learn anything - they just dont want to do anything that is NOT fun.

 

they are not playing games for 'progressing' and 'getting rewarded for effort' either. for, due to consumerization of gaming, most of the playerbase are already people with jobs, families, responsibilities. not to mention that the first generation of gamers, who were high school and college students back 10 years ago, have grown up and are now working in jobs or have responsibilities.

 

im one of them. i spent countless months on many games, doing this, doing that, grinding this, grinding that. i dont regret a minute of it.

 

but, now i cannot be arsed to log into a game, and work my *** off for some 5% progression on some gear stat over the course of a week. i really, really dont give a flying rat *** about it. when i log into a game, it is to have fun. not to be obliged or restrained or waste time.

 

so, the only things i would do in a game, would be things that are actually fun. it does not matter what they are. really. it can be anything. as long as it gives me fun, immersion, realism, and gives me a good time while doing it, i can do anything.

 

the only thing i cannot do is grind hours of my life away every day on my entertainment time just because there is a tiny percentage of gamers who are in need of feeling achievement and reward progression in a game, and therefore turning the game into a grind/effort fest.

 

And since other companies are companies that wants to earn money, they too go for that model, its the most profitable and gets you most players. I cant blame them for that, but I wish it werent so.

 

you should be thankful that it is so now.

 

over the last 10 years, due to the playerbase generally being hardcore gamers back then, companies increasingly went the 'timesink' route in ALL games including single player games, and advertised this waste of time as 'playtime' in their boxes. 'we have 60 hours of playtime !' -> yeah, through grinding crap in some zone/area.

 

that is not fun. its being exploited.

 

now that the gamerbase has become casual, companies cant just make things take longer, advertise it as 'playtime' and exploit the hardcore gaming minority and make a profit. now they have to actually offer fun in order to sell boxes.

 

the story of all other game consoles vs nintendo wii should be explanative enough.

 

I like the idea of having to raid (or something else thats not too easy) to get the best schematics, everyone cant just have them, then they wont be worth anything..

 

'worth' anything, because few people have it or because something is harder to obtain ?

 

that is just plain foolish.

 

what happened to something being worth something because it is actually the result of your own creative effort ? ie, the joy of creation ?

 

that is what crafting is.

[DarksideniYokoso]

A quick word about craft gear being inferior to raid gear. Raiders raid to get gear for more raids. Crafters that DON'T want to raid do not require the same quality of gear as raiders. Raid gear typically does not make for the best PvP gear either.

 

All other complaints are valid, crafting items need to become more valuabe/unique and the idea of HAVING to raid to get the items to craft inferior goods is absurd. As someone said, such mats either need to be made available outside of raids, or the craft items need to be so good that you raid for the mats to make the gear that you will need for further raids.

 

I myself have never been a fan of raid-centric mmo's. Raids should be entertaining and challenging but not central to gameplay, mmo's need to find alternative end-game content.

Edited December 25, 2011 by DarksideniYokoso

[Enako]

A quick word about craft gear being inferior to raid gear. Raiders raid to get gear for more raids.

 

if raiders are raiding to get gear for more raids, which will require more gear and necessitate more raiding, then it means raiders are raiding not for raid's sake, but gear's sake. not fun's sake.

 

if, raiding twice a week for a total of 8 hours in 2 runs may or may not net you a 5% improvement on your gear statistics, and it is defined as 'fun', then there is a problem with that.

 

raiding should be an activity that is fun in itself. the end reward should not constitute the 'fun' of a 4 hour a run endeavor. that 4 hours should be fun in itself.

 

I myself have never been a fan of raid-centric mmo's. Raids should be entertaining and challenging but not central to gameplay,

 

yes. that. and what you tell above would fix almost all of the ills of mmo games. at least, everquest/wow clones.

 

mmo's need to find alternative end-game content.

 

there are a lot of games doing that. even games like lotro, which has raiding and instances.

 

they concentrate on content. lotro is one of the foremost mmos that has churned out massive amounts of content. granted, they have been sitting on lotr lore and they had much material to work with. but they still did not just spend time setting up timesinks - instead they pumped out content. now if someone starts lotro anew, s/he has at least 1 -1.5 years of entertaining content to go through until reaching endgame, if s/he doesnt rush.

 

and lets face it - majority of people who are buying this game are buying it for star wars. not getting rewarded, or raiding, this that. i assure you that majority subscribers dont even know what word 'raid' means. you can see it from the hilarious questions that are asked in /1 in pve/rp servers - they actually dont even know very basic mmo conventions. they basically bought the game for 'star wars'. else you couldnt explain around 6 million preorders - there arent that many mmo veterans - even wow had maximum 18 mil subscribers at its peak, mostly inactive.

 

in short, what bioware needs to do is to drop all the ill mmo conventions wow has polished to irritation, and give more 'star wars' to people, and make everything more fun, instead of 'rewarding'. fun makes you come back for more. rewards cause you to go seek another game when they run out, and they run out fast. if you make them not run out fast, progress becomes slow and game becomes boring. so you again leave.

 

there is no way to satiate the 'progress and reward' cycle. its a cycle that reinforces and destroys itself.

[DesperateCry]

Everything aside, I do not understand poeple who keeps saying "why do you need raiding gear if you do not want to raid"

 

Well, to sell it? to craft for raiders? Since we are crafters? I do not care if materials are only found in raids, as long as I can get the schematic and raider can give me mats to make the items for him.

[Almghty_gir]

i have no problem with needing rare drops from raids to make the best schematic gear.

i have a big problem with the best schematic gear not being equal to the best dropped/purchased gear in the game even after the following requirements are met:

 

• getting crafting/gathering to 400 each (costs in the region of 1.5mil credits)
  
• finding the schematics
  
• reverse engineering to get the best result (costs even more credits for materials)
  
• raiding to get the ingredients needed
  
• having an abismally low "crit" rate on the crafting to give an augment slot which still doesn't bring the gear up to par.
  

[Firiel]

And here are my 2 cents.

 

In order to have a crafting system which makes sense, it is profitable, enjoyable and economically important, you need this thing called FULL LOOT. You just cant have a good crafting system in an item centric game in which there is no way for you to lose any of your items.

 

Ahh... i miss the crafting in Ultima.

[DustomaticGXC]

You raid to get gear to raid to get gear to raid to get gear. The game is based on gear progression, and without it crafting has no sense of advancemnt.

 

No, the game is based on progression of content. Gear is just a tool. If you don't want to tackle raid content, you don't need raid-quality gear.

[Sun-Runner]

On topic: The idea that you must raid to get the materials to make an inferior-to-raid-drops / inferior-to-daily-quest-rewards piece of equipment is ... less than useful.

 

I don't imagine it is going to change though.

 

 

 

 

 

(addressing this post only)

 

And here are my 2 cents.

 

In order to have a crafting system which makes sense, it is profitable, enjoyable and economically important, you need this thing called FULL LOOT. You just cant have a good crafting system in an item centric game in which there is no way for you to lose any of your items.

 

Ahh... i miss the crafting in Ultima.

 

Its' called "item degradation", and it works. This is a solved problem. It has been a solved problem for longer than we've had graphical MUDs let alone MMOs.

 

"Full Loot" is a FFA PvP-only option, and as such is irrelevant to this PvE game.

 

(/addressing this post only)

[Sun-Runner]

No, the game is based on progression of content. Gear is just a tool. If you don't want to tackle raid content, you don't need raid-quality gear.

 

Right. Which is why getting the materials to make raid-level-gear from raiding makes sense. Total agreement. This isn't the situation that exists in the game.

 

Having to raid to get the materials to make inferior-to-raid-drop gear doesn't make sense. This is the situation that exists in game.

[Enako]

Right. Which is why getting the materials to make raid-level-gear from raiding makes sense. Total agreement. This isn't the situation that exists in the game.

 

that doesnt make sense. because, raiding to get materials to craft, means that you are, well, duh - raiding.

 

not crafting.

 

if you are raiding, there is no point to crafting. for, raid level gear will already drop from raids.

 

this means everyone will have to oblige with raiding, which is the playstyle only a minority of playerbase enjoys - just to be able to get top content in the game.

 

and it is wrong.

 

games should accommodate different playstyles to reach the same goal. no playstyle is superior or inferior to other.

Edited December 25, 2011 by Enako

[NoxiousAlby]

Failing to see how having raid specific gear come from RAIDING and PvP specific gear come from PVP has anything to do with "making a mistake" or "failing to make people happy".

 

It boggles me how people can argue against this and think that solo players should get gear equal to the gear of those who exclusively PVP or raid. Once you finish the storyline, what exactly is there to solo? You beat the game, there is nothing else. No special content to challenge yourself.

 

See if you fail to understand this,

 

A great many people who choose not to raid do like to challenge themselves with flashpoints, just because one chooses to no longer raid doesnt mean they wont do heroic flashpoints.Being the best geared you can be is a motivating factor for many players. This game will be no different to Cata, minus the initial difficulty. Players will still be expected to raid to advance thier characters and we saw where that got Blizz this year.

 

So

 

Inaccessability leads to disinterest

[Stillnotking]

Right. Which is why getting the materials to make raid-level-gear from raiding makes sense. Total agreement. This isn't the situation that exists in the game.

 

Having to raid to get the materials to make inferior-to-raid-drop gear doesn't make sense. This is the situation that exists in game.

 

If you could crit on orange crafts for an augment slot, you could make pieces that were competitive with raid gear (since the augment slots are equal to, if not slightly better than, set bonuses) while still having to raid to get the mods to put in them. That would be a sensible way to handle it. Unfortunately, as of now that is not the case, and crafted purples are inferior to raid gear no matter what mods you put in them, including augments.

 

Weapon/armor crafting as they exist currently are just time sinks. Even if you don't raid, you can get items and mods on Ilum that are better than anything you can craft (without raiding).

 

Servers full of people with Biochem and Cybertech FTL.

[Solantharius]

I have no problem having to raid to get raid quality crafting schematics, my issue is the fact I can go do one set of dailies real quick and get a full set of mods that are better than anything anyone can ever make thus making gear crafting completely worthless once you are leveled up and gain access to these incredibly easy dailies.

[Jamjuice]

Everything aside, I do not understand poeple who keeps saying "why do you need raiding gear if you do not want to raid"

 

Well, to sell it? to craft for raiders? Since we are crafters? I do not care if materials are only found in raids, as long as I can get the schematic and raider can give me mats to make the items for him.

 

Exactly!

In SWG I was a master shipwright who virtually never did any combat at all, except fending off any mobs that attacked me while i was tending to my harvesters.

 

* I loved the fact that people from all over the galaxy would come to my shop looking to buy the best ships/parts thier credits could buy.

 

* I loved being able to name my product lines which made them unique and identifiable.

 

* I loved waking up, (logging on) in the house I built and decorated, jumping on my speeder bike that my friend crafted for me, and driving to my shop to sit down and work at the crafting station I built.

 

* I loved going out and surveying entire planets for the perfect material to build my latest project. Then tracking down the spot with the highest concentration to place my harvester.

 

For me, crafting in SWG wasn't a lame side quest done to keep you competitive in the game, it WAS the game!

[Reddaye]

I agree with this topic. The main idea that crafting should be a viable way to play the game isn't something that should offend people. I do a fair bit of raiding, but would be very interested in being able to burn my time doing crafting.

 

This is just another game where you hit "Craft" and watch the little progress bar move along until its done and you get your item. There's no personalizing anything. No real sense of advancement as you piece your item together. Its clearly just meant to be a tag on for people who plan to do the only end game content available: raiding ( and to a very lesser extent pvp).

 

It won't change though, or its very unlikely too. This is a theme park mmo, and we've seen them a hundred times. Outside of the dialogue system its the exact same thing you always get. Is the game bad? No. It's just not what some people have been looking for.

 

Go look at the crafting in a game like Mortal Online, and you'll get a sense of what works for crafting as a viable alternative playstyle. Is it long and boring to some people? Sure, but its not for everyone, just like raiding isn't. The raiders raid, and the crafters make things for them.

[Candomble]

Some people, devs included, should realize that crafting is part of the game and that for some players it can be THE game; same way as for others it is about raiding, about RP, about leveling alts, and so on.

 

Second thing (I do raid, although not more than 4-5 hours / week) raiding shouldn't be looked only as a way to gear up (and show-off...). It is about group play and challenging mechanics. Of course that if you can get all the BIS gear coming from crafts, the challenge will be lower, so the challenge for the dev team is about balancing this 2 things: making crafting a viable game option and keep raiding challenging, and raid gear farming a way to help lowering that challenge.

 

How? Probably giving crafters the chance to produce a couple of BIS pieces, producing vanity items and produce all the best gear you can get in a pre-raiding level, not gear that you replace with daily quests farming; and this formula I am sugesting isn't exactly new...

Edited December 25, 2011 by Candomble

[iconnnn]

Time to /cry and make the game easier for the people who dont want to put the time into it

[Sevenpifers]

Just to let you all know, I'm a raider...Yeah.

 

My complaint is not raiding to get the mats, My complaint is the dailies and basic raid gear are better -_-

 

Seriously who's stupid Idea was that?

 

Therefore: More mats and rolls and time and money= Less powerful Item, Compared to Less time and one roll= More powerful item that you can get in the same raid without the mats.

 

What sense does THAT MAKE AT ALL?

Edited December 25, 2011 by Sevenpifers

[Enako]

It won't change though, or its very unlikely too. This is a theme park mmo, and we've seen them a hundred times. Outside of the dialogue system its the exact same thing you always get. Is the game bad? No. It's just not what some people have been looking for.

 

it will change. wow has changed. if, it didnt work for wow, the biggest mmo in history, then it means it wont work for anyone else anymore.

 

wow format (raid and grind) has worn off. it had only a certain novelty. and that gamerbase-spanning novelty got worn off in 5 years.

 

inevitable - it was new when it was just out, it became something used to and boring after 5 years as people discovered its ills with time.

 

Some people, devs included, should realize that crafting is part of the game and that for some players it can be THE game; same way as for others it is about raiding, about RP, about leveling alts, and so on.

 

more than being an integral part of the game, its an important part of realism.

 

imagine - obi wan kanobi going to grind giant headed centipedes so that a better lightsaber than his can drop. oh, he also grinds some hutt boss 4 hour every week too - in hopes of having a %0.5 chance drop chest piece.

 

all the megacorporations, manufacturers in the star wars world, hell, even trade guild that caused the clone war gone to dust.

 

Time to /cry and make the game easier for the people who dont want to put the time into it

 

you put time into a job or work. games are not things that you should do in place of a job/work, and get 'rewarded' with insignificant improvement items after toiling for 8 hours online.

[Repefe]

If you could crit on orange crafts for an augment slot, you could make pieces that were competitive with raid gear (since the augment slots are equal to, if not slightly better than, set bonuses) while still having to raid to get the mods to put in them. That would be a sensible way to handle it. Unfortunately, as of now that is not the case, and crafted purples are inferior to raid gear no matter what mods you put in them, including augments.

The set bonus should be bound to mods therefore orange gear should be totally on par with raid gear without augment slot. Not that you can make orange gear with augment slot anyway.

[Candomble]

Time to /cry and make the game easier for the people who dont want to put the time into it

 

Probably you never tried a different kind of MMO... at least different from the mainstream usual ones. Crafting can be made a real timesink you know? So that is not a issue of time, more of giving crafting some value. Otherwise leveling several professions is useless.

[shark_megabyte]

I've dabbled occasionally in crafting in NWN and now SWTOR, and I think the fundamental thing holding crafting back is that it's limited by the framework of the game. In other words, it's a lot harder for game programmers to put in a fun, dynamic way to make (and sell) highly customizable and high-strength items than it is for them to just create very useful and powerful items themselves and drop them in the game (or, for semi-ORPGs like NWN, players/server owners can create their own with a toolkit and import them for online play). Because of that, "crafting" to me means "an extra feature of limited practical use and efficiency, thrown in to placate people who will freak out if they don't have a way to customize their gear."

 

I would really love to see a great game where this is not the case. But the odds are stacked strongly against it.

[RodFlanders]

Crafting has its place.... As a casual player, its beneficial. I can see where a power gamer would be upset by the way this system has been implemented though.

 

Give me a SWG crafting system over this stuff any day of the week btw...

[Erian]

In SWG there were guilds who only crafted and sold stuff to the raiders. That was their job, and that's what they enjoyed doing.

 

This is a "Role Playing Game!" If people want to craft and be good at it, they shouldn't be required to raid. Yes the mats should still come from the raids, but they should be tradable autionable. Not all role players want to play the role of the epic fighter who takes down the big boss.

 

When game devs like on this one learn that it's about the player and their freedom of choice then they will get the bigger picture.

 

And to answer the question "What would you use the gear for if you don't raid?" Who cares what they would use the gear for?! It doesn't affect you does it?!

 

Couldn't agree more with all of this. The egotistical attitude of people who think raiders should have everything and be able to do everything, and everyone else should have and be able to do nothing pisses me off to no end. What about choices? What about different paths being viable? Please Bioware, rethink this. I'd hate to see this game fall into the "raid of f*ck off" toxic cesspool. At the very least, crafting materials should never be soulbound.

 

And whoever thinks crafting means "free epics", pull your head out of your rear, please. Crafting is a huge time- and money sink, so it needs rewards that are appropriate to what people invest. Right now, it seems that only Biochemistry and maybe Cybertech give that. That is severely messed up.

[Unxpected]

games should accommodate different playstyles to reach the same goal. no playstyle is superior or inferior to other.

 

Enako, you're the man. You hit it dead on, and I agree 100%. People want multiple outlets to have fun, not just Raid or PVP and those are you're only two options. Crafting can be fun, but it has to have a purpose. If no one ends up needing the items crafters can make, then it has no purpose.

 

Some people want tp be the hero while other's want to be Czerka Corp.