Will raiding in MMOs one day be a thing of the past?

[mleischer]

Why can't you simply accept it's possible for a game to have options for a variety of players?

 

I don't space PvP. I have no interest in it. I wouldn't bat an eye if it were removed from the game. And yet I don't feel like my subscription fees are "subsidizing content I have no interest in doing"

 

It's just a weird viewpoint. I'm paying for the content I'm actually playing. I'm not paying for the content other people are playing.

 

Raids take up about 1/3 of the budget of games from what I read, yet less than 10% of players ever enter one and less than 1% ever even finish a raid. SWTOR may be higher than that due to only needing 8 people, but the trend has been "new raid = new content" thereby ignoring the overwhelming majority of players with nothing new between xpacs. Games need to grow with their clients and are realizing raids are a drain on limited development resources.

[LordArtemis]

I hope I do not give the impression that I believe everything will be "dumbed down" for casuals, or that I feel casuals are all unskilled players.

 

I do feel casuals are not very interested in gear progression or end game, or are only interested in gear progression as far as it provides a more enjoyable casual experience when leveling. Casuals generally avoid group content IMO.

 

That does not mean they are not social...just not as cooperative in play. They still enjoy other social activities in game, like playing the market, crafting, chatting, RP, etc.

 

I do think that since casuals generally avoid end game a way has to be found to introduce them to it. I think having solo and tactical versions of SM flashpoints is one way to make that happen...another would be the removal of the "death tax" from SMs.

[mleischer]

If someone plays WoW(or any game for that matter) for years without ever having a look at any forum,sorry they are not only casual but a noob too.With all the negative definitions and implications you can think of.

 

Thanks for attacking my child. Bet you're a riot at parties.

[LordArtemis]

If someone plays WoW(or any game for that matter) for years without ever having a look at any forum,sorry they are not only casual but a noob too.With all the negative definitions and implications you can think of.

 

Casuals are not unskilled, but are generally less skilled than hardcore players. I think someone could safely make that assumption. However casuals can become very skilled at gameplay, from the perspective of open world PVE play of course.

 

They most definitely rarely participate in activities such as min/maxing, theorycrafting and BIS efforts. That is a domain that is almost entirely for hardcore players.

Edited December 12, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Foambreaker]

As the gaming population ages people will be less and less interested in scheduling a busy life around the schedules of 8, 16, 25 etc people. Especially when those people tend not to show up on time, or even show up.

[Warrgames]

The major problem here is that everyone has a different opinion what it means to be hardcore or causal. Between amount of time played, how they play, what they do and so on.

[Khevar]

Raids take up about 1/3 of the budget of games from what I read

Yeah. I'm going to need a link on that. I don't believe you.

yet less than 10% of players ever enter one and less than 1% ever even finish a raid. SWTOR may be higher than that due to only needing 8 people, but the trend has been "new raid = new content" thereby ignoring the overwhelming majority of players with nothing new between xpacs. Games need to grow with their clients and are realizing raids are a drain on limited development resources.

Well, in that case, you should be positively thrilled with SW:TOR. October 2013 through November 2014 saw no new raids -- just a NM update on two old raids.

 

Compare that to 6 raids released between January 2012 and October 2013 (KP/EC/TfB/SvN/DF/DP).

 

Looks like you're getting your wish -- what the heck are you even complaining about?

Edited December 12, 2014 by Khevar

[Foambreaker]

...casuals generally....

 

Double generalization.

 

Maybe you guys trying to put people in a box could be more accurate if you went ahead and added a race, culture or religion reference?

[Ghisallo]

While many, maybe even most MMO players may never raid it is clearly important to the perception of the game. How often, regarding PvE games, have we seen "there is no end game." Even if people don't avail themselves of it, if it is not there people wonder about what the devs were thinking. Were the devs cutting corners? Did they get forced to launch early? GW2 tried to stick to its guns about "no raiding" but they have taken enough flack that they are clearly considering adding it as they are now looking to hire a raid designer.

 

Look at it this way LOTS of people buy Jeep products. You ask them why they bought it and they will often talk about the vehicle's off road pedigree and toughness. Then ask them when the last time they went mudding with it. How many do you think have actually taken their off road certified $45k Grand Cherokee off road?

 

There is also the following issue. Whether we like it or not the theory crafter's that essentially tell people how to play the game (ideal builds, stat weights, rotations, etc) are the raiders in PvE games. The people who give the most detailed feedback on mechanics on beta and pts? Raiders. Even if you dismiss all of the above, having what amounts to free QA employees working for you 24/7 365 is likely worth the cost of having a couple raid zones per expac. Its not like most of them aren't simply reused artwork with tuned up stats from dungeon encounters.

[Foambreaker]

The major problem here is that everyone has a different opinion what it means to be hardcore or causal. Between amount of time played, how they play, what they do and so on.

 

Stereotyping people is hard, but on the forums casual is easy, casual is anyone who disagrees with anyone who thinks they are hardcore

 

It can be used to discredit the persons opinion or as a straight up insult.

[LordArtemis]

As I have mentioned before, the definition of casual and hardcore varies even within direct studies of the industry.

 

Some studies base it on total gameplay, others on gameplay session length or game content participation, others yet on what a player pursues when in game.

 

I tend to cling to the latter definition. You are defined by what you pursue in a game....if you pursue visual recognition, progression and cherish effort and gains based on that effort, you are generally considered a hardcore player.

 

If instead you pursue content, storyline, minigames and alternate game play and usually avoid group content, with progression as the least of your concerns you are most likely a casual player.

[arunav]

I hope I do not give the impression that I believe everything will be "dumbed down" for casuals, or that I feel casuals are all unskilled players.

 

I do feel casuals are not very interested in gear progression or end game, or are only interested in gear progression as far as it provides a more enjoyable casual experience when leveling. Casuals generally avoid group content IMO.

 

That does not mean they are not social...just not as cooperative in play. They still enjoy other social activities in game, like playing the market, crafting, chatting, RP, etc.

 

I do think that since casuals generally avoid end game a way has to be found to introduce them to it. I think having solo and tactical versions of SM flashpoints is one way to make that happen...another would be the removal of the "death tax" from SMs.

 

This seems to like you are taking your own playing preferences and generalizing them for all "casuals."

 

Most folks I've played with over the past 3 years enjoy a little of everything in SWTOR. It's the only way to actually be engaged and not run out of things to do, unless you play very few hours per week. This game is casual to begin with, except for the HM Operations after KP, and certainly the NiM Operations. So few players are specifically engaged in only PvP, ranked isn't even worth mentioning.

 

In short, most players I believe are "casuals" (something I think we'd agree on), and I'd say it's likely most still do group content at endgame.

 

As far as gearing for easy leveling, we've had two expansions, and both provided planetary/basic comm gear that made the new leveling content extremely easy. In SoR, they even gave you the basic comms you needed for your character and a companion.

Edited December 12, 2014 by arunav

[Khevar]

Most folks I've played with over the past 3 years enjoy a little of everything in SWTOR. It's the only way to actually be engaged and not run out of things to do, unless you play very few hours per week.

I think this is an excellent point.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if BW metrics showed that the bulk of their playerbase spends time in a number of different aspects of the game, while the player that only ever solo-levels and nothing else is a minority. (Or at least, not the vast majority that some people seem to think it is).

[LordArtemis]

This game has certainly broken a few industry norms (like the majority of store purchases, and therefore revenue come from freeps...in this game it is subs) so I would have to concede that it is certainly possible the majority here involve themselves in some way with end game content.

 

it would be interesting to see the metrics.

[Orizuru]

I think this is an excellent point.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if BW metrics showed that the bulk of their playerbase spends time in a number of different aspects of the game, while the player that only ever solo-levels and nothing else is a minority. (Or at least, not the vast majority that some people seem to think it is).

 

Agreed.

 

It seems everyone tends to believe their own play-style is always the majority.

[Warrgames]

Agreed.

 

It seems everyone tends to believe their own play-style is always the majority.

 

That because you either play like me and like the same things I do or your wrong.

[LordArtemis]

This seems to like you are taking your own playing preferences and generalizing them for all "casuals."

 

No.

 

But I am generalizing the study results I have read, so the comments are speculation, clearly.

 

I could be wrong on any of the points made, and I do not always agree with the studies I read.

 

Generally I agree with the conclusions that come from Superdata. That is the company we use in-house and I think they have one of the best reputations in the industry.

 

A few of the points made have come from public statements for current MMOs like WoW and LotRO. Naturally the conclusions they reached can also be disputed, and folks here have done so in the past when the sources were cited.

Edited December 12, 2014 by LordArtemis

[DataBeaver]

Will there be MMOs with no raids in them? Almost certainly. Will all MMOs abandon raids? Almost certainly not.

 

If even 10% of MMO players enjoy raids, that's still a huge market. Where a market exists, someone will come and take advantage of it. If all current MMOs were to abandon raids, there would be new ones.

 

I also think there will continue to be MMOs that offer multiple types of content. Some people like to raid, but would feel overwhelmed in a game where they can't do anything without a group. A hybrid approach works best for them, so there's market for that kind of games as well.

[Aries_cz]

Personally, I believe that the foreseeable future of MMO games is scalable group content.

You will be able to go in any number of people from 2 to some arbitrary limit (lets say 16), and the content adjusts for that either by changing itself (every encounter would need several subsets of AI) or giving AI controlled companions (for example, content has tiers 2, 4, 8, 12, 16, when 5 players enter, they are playing tier 8, and are granted three AI companions that fill the needed roles).

 

In farther future, when we finally manage to create proper holodecks, I can see some radical changes happening with the game industry (after pr0n makes the technology viable and affordable, as it does for everything)

Edited December 12, 2014 by Aries_cz

[SammuelSK]

No, because its a thing people enjoy. Similarly, while I don't personally play Barbie Dream Maker Doll House I don't call for it to be removed, and everyone who may enjoy it be told to **** off.

 

These articles are stupid (The article is obvious click bait), but I find gamers in general are fairly stupid too. There are plenty out there that believe everything has to be something they personally enjoy, if they don't... then it is on some level wrong and needs to be removed. The fact is, everything does not need to be designed for your own personal enjoyment.. there are other people out there too who actually enjoy different things.

[Candor]

Raiding is already a thing of the past.

 

I was a raider for years in other games -- 40 hours a week wiping on progression bosses, plus many hours a week farming consumables, reading guides/forums, taking applicants on evaluation runs, etc. -- and the fun was being part of a team of calm, committed pros. I'd do that again in a heartbeat, even build such a guild if I found a kernel somewhere. But in a year in this game, I've been in maybe four guilds in this game that considered themselves ops-focused, and the "teams" been sloppy, late, unmotivated, ungeared, unskilled, etc. Worse, they were actually clearing the content, which then spoiled the gear as an achievement. Perhaps NiM is different, but nobody seems to do it.

 

Anyway, the next time you go to call some soloer a "casual," consider that maybe they're just a totally elitist jerk. Thanks.

[Khevar]

I was a raider for years in other games -- 40 hours a week wiping on progression bosses, plus many hours a week farming consumables, reading guides/forums, taking applicants on evaluation runs, etc. -- and the fun was being part of a team of calm, committed pros. I'd do that again in a heartbeat, even build such a guild if I found a kernel somewhere.

Throughout most of this thread, my comments have been in favor of raiding being a good thing, and that I wish there were more of this in SW:TOR. I guess you could call me a "raid defender"

 

And then I read this. Ouch.

 

40 hours a week? PLUS many hours a week farming consumables? Really???

 

Absolutely, unconditionally, 100%, NO-FREAKING-THANKS. If that's what raiding is supposed to be, then I for one am glad it doesn't exist in this game.

 

I really enjoy group content in this game. I enjoy flashpoints, I enjoy operations, I even enjoy the NM ops in this game. The group of friends I have made get together online, we get into mumble, we joke, we play, we have a good time, and we're pretty successful in our endeavors.

 

THAT is what I would like to keep going. Not revert to whatever Candor thinks is the ideal raid situation. Ugg.

[Warrgames]

Throughout most of this thread, my comments have been in favor of raiding being a good thing, and that I wish there were more of this in SW:TOR. I guess you could call me a "raid defender"

 

And then I read this. Ouch.

 

40 hours a week? PLUS many hours a week farming consumables? Really???

 

Absolutely, unconditionally, 100%, NO-FREAKING-THANKS. If that's what raiding is supposed to be, then I for one am glad it doesn't exist in this game.

 

I really enjoy group content in this game. I enjoy flashpoints, I enjoy operations, I even enjoy the NM ops in this game. The group of friends I have made get together online, we get into mumble, we joke, we play, we have a good time, and we're pretty successful in our endeavors.

 

THAT is what I would like to keep going. Not revert to whatever Candor thinks is the ideal raid situation. Ugg.

 

You can say ouch all you want. It is a great feeling when you down that boss.

[mefit]

I hope I do not give the impression that I believe everything will be "dumbed down" for casuals, or that I feel casuals are all unskilled players.

 

I do feel casuals are not very interested in gear progression or end game, or are only interested in gear progression as far as it provides a more enjoyable casual experience when leveling. Casuals generally avoid group content IMO.

 

That does not mean they are not social...just not as cooperative in play. They still enjoy other social activities in game, like playing the market, crafting, chatting, RP, etc.

 

I do think that since casuals generally avoid end game a way has to be found to introduce them to it. I think having solo and tactical versions of SM flashpoints is one way to make that happen...another would be the removal of the "death tax" from SMs.

Yeah you make them seem like Dumbed down , easy mode players .

You characterize them not so much unskilled but with the things you have said , really make them look weak.

 

I think endgame should be kept to those who have interest in learning to play , working for something , and want to research it . Not people who just bounce around hitting the Spacebar , randomly targeting mobs that will wipe the alliance or group .

 

I am by definition a light player , I play 1-2hrs a day but I have taken the time to learn my class and the endgame that I want to be involved in .

 

I have always hated Repairing gear in general and that is by far the only thing you have said I can honestly agree with you . But it does not discourage me from doing anything .

If you cannot make money to pay your bills, than you need to learn to play more .

 

Here soon we will be having discussions on how to make sure no one gets more money ingame than another ............because it is unfair ....................Very sure this is coming .

[Khevar]

You can say ouch all you want. It is a great feeling when you down that boss.

Of course. But I was able to have that feeling with raiding as it exists in this game.

 

Raiding that requires 40+ hours per week? No thanks.