Will raiding in MMOs one day be a thing of the past?

[Karkais]

I would recommend reading this paper by professor Bartle from May 2013, he raises some interesting points

http://mud.co.uk/richard/The%20Decline%20of%20MMOs.pdf

 

Thank you very much for this link! I agree with many if not most of the articles views about what the problems are.

 

revan is comming by..............

 

Revan offers exactly zero innovation. There is nothing actually new in the coming update. Thats why Ive been badmouthing it and swtor for a long while now.

 

An interesting read, but I get the feeling from reading it that some of the solutions are dead ends.

 

Take 'Size matters', advocating for smaller server populations so a player feels important. I would argue that what players really want is convenience, when they want to play they want to play now, not wait for an hour or so while their group forms. The solution of many servers of smaller populations was effectively tried at the launch of SWTOR and was very nearly the nail in the coffin as populations stretched across the content and it was nigh on impossible to PUG any content.

I am not sure I agree. My most fun swtor happened on my original server, with my first guild who I had good fun only barely finishing raid content (often failing). We had to work and plan together how to best deal with the boss encounters. In other words, interact with each other. Normal flashpoint/raid content is often very non-interactive, because best methods will form quickly, raid guides are written and read, and soon raids are being done with barely talking with your teammates at all. People in such content are ending up strangers with each other. This is why I am generally against such themepark content.

 

Adding more players to the mix doesn't generally help. With a bunch of randoms any kind of defeat is being dealt with either kicking people ("you suck!") or leaving the group ("you guys suck!"). Which is pretty much antithesis of what I mentioned earlier. No, Im pretty sure Bartle is right on the money here. The more people there are, the less important you feel. Be a tank or healer on a low-population server? I guarantee you will feel important.

 

I almost hope that there will be another thread about the problems of the current crop of MMOs. Its a big issue that is close to my heart. The problems also need to be addressed as a whole, since they are depedant on one another.

 

Btw, about the example MMOs mentioned in the Bartle article; I have played both and at least Secret world I label under "greatest MMO disappointments" in recent years. Both secret world and age of Wulin indeed have new ideas, but they are not different enough to my liking.

 

In fact, Secret world could easily be used as another example of the problems mentioned in the article. It advertised itself as a refreshing levelless mmo, BUT still used the same bog-standard gear progression via endgame raids as so many other MMOs. Also while it used to have one of the most beautiful MMO worlds I have seen, it has taken extreme steps away from immersion in last couple years. Filling up with "look at all these little things you can buy with your real money!" stuff. All kinds of new endgame commendation/marks, special holiday events, clown costumes, non-combat pets, all of that non-immersive garbage. Sure it has some very innovative quests, but thats not enough to keep me around. Also one big thing: all the 'zones' are chock full of various monsters. Thats not very 'secret', is it? I had hoped a game where I would have to go look at all the dark nooks and crannies of the world to find the supernatural, a detective/horror story. Not having the supernatural train chase me around the frigging zone. In other words: TSW promised to be different but in the end went back on its word and relied on the 'same old' once again.

 

So sad, so much potential, wasted.

 

ps. I agree with Bartle in that MMOs need to go back to their roots, where developers create worlds and not merely tailored experiences.

Edited November 27, 2014 by Karkais

[LordArtemis]

This whole "solo flashpoint" mechanic that was introduced with this expansion seems to be pretty popular. Folks seem to like the "god bot" your given so you can solo.

[Andryah]

This whole "solo flashpoint" mechanic that was introduced with this expansion seems to be pretty popular. Folks seem to like the "god bot" your given so you can solo.

 

Indeed.

 

Mostly because the god-bot actually knows how to play his class.. so you are not stuck with a /random_group of planted turnips pretending to be onions.

[LordArtemis]

Indeed.

 

Mostly because the god-bot actually knows how to play his class.. so you are not stuck with a /random_group of planted turnips pretending to be onions.

 

LOL

 

Yea, that is probably the biggest turn off to grouping certainly.

[LyraineAlei]

Indeed.

 

Mostly because the god-bot actually knows how to play his class.. so you are not stuck with a /random_group of planted turnips pretending to be onions.

 

And Jesus Droid doesn't demand that you space bar, stop dawdling to look at stuff (Rakata and Manaan, namely), or that you change gears to something you don't even have.

 

Jesus Droid accepts all, flaws and all. And Jesus Droid doesn't talk, so it's better than Treek.

 

Grouping to do FPs grants more comms through GF, as well as social points, but allowing us to have Jesus Droid in FPs would be a good investment for BW to have in the CM, I think. Might even help would-be raiders learn how the fights work before joining a raid even, and bring raiding to a larger number of people instead of just the small number of min-maxers who only want to speed run, and even might save veterans helping new raiders time in describing the fights, unless the new raiders don't have Jesus Droid.

 

TL;DR: Jesus Droid is awesome, and should be a CM item that could be sold to people on the GTN. BW gets money, players have ways to get it, and FP stress could go away for the most.

 

Oh, wait.. Hmm. FPs=/=Ops, but if there are similar fights, a vet could just say "Big Bad A fights like Boss B from FP 3."

[LordArtemis]

And Jesus Droid doesn't demand that you space bar, stop dawdling to look at stuff (Rakata and Manaan, namely), or that you change gears to something you don't even have.

 

Jesus Droid accepts all, flaws and all. And Jesus Droid doesn't talk, so it's better than Treek.

 

Grouping to do FPs grants more comms through GF, as well as social points, but allowing us to have Jesus Droid in FPs would be a good investment for BW to have in the CM, I think. Might even help would-be raiders learn how the fights work before joining a raid even, and bring raiding to a larger number of people instead of just the small number of min-maxers who only want to speed run, and even might save veterans helping new raiders time in describing the fights, unless the new raiders don't have Jesus Droid.

 

TL;DR: Jesus Droid is awesome, and should be a CM item that could be sold to people on the GTN. BW gets money, players have ways to get it, and FP stress could go away for the most.

 

Oh, wait.. Hmm. FPs=/=Ops, but if there are similar fights, a vet could just say "Big Bad A fights like Boss B from FP 3."

 

I would love to have this droid as an alternate companion set up like Treek. I really don't care for using Treek on dark side characters.

[LyraineAlei]

I would love to have this droid as an alternate companion set up like Treek. I really don't care for using Treek on dark side characters.

 

I know I would buy this droid. As awesome as Treek is said to be, I can't stand listening to her when grouped with someone who has her, so this droid would be a welcome alternative to Treek to those of us who hate her voice and talking, but don't want to turn of Voice volume for themselves or NPCs.

 

Edit: And I would run SM on those Ops to be familiar with them if I could and have him with me at similar power (by Ops, I mean the older ones, not the new ones yet) to learn those fights and become a less useless player (which I would be if I went on raids at this time).

Edited December 3, 2014 by LyraineAlei

[Candor]

My two cents on the main topic:

• Raiding won't and shouldn't go away.
  
• But raiding being the only way to get BiS gear WILL go away.
  

 

There are a lot of legitimate ways to play an MMO. Each should lead to comparable rewards. That said, it'd make sense that gear should be BiS only for the type of content where it was earned. E.g., solo-earned gear good only for soloing. If you want gear for every situation, you gotta play every aspect of the game.

 

It was once revolutionary for PVP to give "real" rewards like XP and credits. It was once revolutionary for there to be rewards for "solo" questing. Someday soon it will be history that the most useful gear in a game could only be earned through one activity in a game.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Candor

[LordArtemis]

I know I would buy this droid. As awesome as Treek is said to be, I can't stand listening to her when grouped with someone who has her, so this droid would be a welcome alternative to Treek to those of us who hate her voice and talking, but don't want to turn of Voice volume for themselves or NPCs.

 

I actually think they should allow us to craft animal and droid combat pets. I had suggested that they would be "die and lose", if they die you lose them and need to get another, they would not have affection, dialog or the ability to run missions or craft.

 

What they would provide, however, is a good alternative to current companion choices. The ability to send out any companion you want and not worry about having to solo the game. There are many benefits IMO.

 

Plus, it could open up combat pet battles in the future.

[LordArtemis]

My two cents on the main topic:

• Raiding won't and shouldn't go away.
  
• But raiding being the only way to get BiS gear WILL go away.
  

 

There are a lot of legitimate ways to play an MMO. Each should lead to comparable rewards (although it'd make sense that gear rewards would only be BiS for the type of content that you earned it from; e.g., solo-earned gear good only for soloing, such as by raid bosses requiring a unique stat like Expertise for PVP. So if you want gear that is good at everything, you need to do everything).

 

It was once revolutionary for PVP to give "real" rewards like XP and credits. It was once revolutionary for there to be rewards for "solo" questing. Someday soon it will be history that the most useful gear in a game could only be earned through one type of playstyle.

 

Its a good point. Perhaps it is just the relevance of raiding that will drop off as more and more casuals join the game and the hardcore traditional crowd begins to diminish.

[ZETA_SCORPII]

Its a good point. Perhaps it is just the relevance of raiding that will drop off as more and more casuals join the game and the hardcore traditional crowd begins to diminish.

 

SM raiding is already casual and can be very fun. I feel sorry for anyone who doesn't at least run SM Ops because they are really missing out on a great co-op experience. HM and NiM Ops can be very fun as well, if you have the right crew to run them with.

I was a solo player from launch until about a year ago, (didn't play shortly after launch for about 10 months), and was pretty nervous to run an Op, but I ran into a guild who took me in and showed me the ropes and I've been hooked ever since. There are idiotic jerks you'll encounter along the way, but you'll find an abundance of cool people who are more than willing to take you on raids. Raiding, for me, is the best part of online gaming and will never go away.

Edited December 11, 2014 by ZETA_SCORPII

[LordArtemis]

Well, I think one day we will likely see solo access for storylines that are tied into raids. Casuals will likely stand as such a large portion of the playerbase at some point that this move will have to be made to keep raids with storylines relevant.

[mefit]

Getting a Group together for Raiding takes "Work"

Grinding out for Gear takes "Work"

Leveling takes "Work"

 

MMOs are leaning more and more to boring games that you can fly through and have little in the line for goals .

Log in , socialize , log out , complain on forums This and That is a Time Sink and unfair to Casuals ...........

 

 

MMO companies have to at some point realize that if you keep catering to the Casuals , you will not have a game worth playing for much longer than a Month .

 

Older MMOs Casuals might have not been happy but with the Market not full out catering to them , they had no choice but to play them . Which was not totally bad .

 

You will always have Hardcore , Middle , and Casual players but it is really killing any longterm play if we keep going the path of Casualness.

 

So yeah Raiding will eventually be a thing of the past and more and more Casuals would rather just solo and not work to get a Group together.

[Icebergy]

Unless whatever they replaced raiding with was super fantastic and fun, I'd probably quit playing MMOs if they got rid of raiding.

[LordArtemis]

Getting a Group together for Raiding takes "Work"

Grinding out for Gear takes "Work"

Leveling takes "Work"

 

MMOs are leaning more and more to boring games that you can fly through and have little in the line for goals .

Log in , socialize , log out , complain on forums This and That is a Time Sink and unfair to Casuals ...........

 

 

MMO companies have to at some point realize that if you keep catering to the Casuals , you will not have a game worth playing for much longer than a Month .

 

Older MMOs Casuals might have not been happy but with the Market not full out catering to them , they had no choice but to play them . Which was not totally bad .

 

You will always have Hardcore , Middle , and Casual players but it is really killing any longterm play if we keep going the path of Casualness.

 

So yeah Raiding will eventually be a thing of the past and more and more Casuals would rather just solo and not work to get a Group together.

 

Refusing the cater to casuals will likely be the death of any game.

 

The market has changed, probably permanently. The days where hardcore players ruled the market are likely over.

 

Hardcores can lament the loss of days past, but to hold out from catering to your largest potential player base is bad business sense. Luckily most modern MMOs are moving toward casual play and leaving old tired hardcore notions behind, like they should.

 

The market could stand to lose all hardcore players...they represent a small minority of players in the modern market. They could NOT, however, afford to lose casual players.

 

Games that refuse to accept that do so at their own peril or forever remain niche titles.

 

I too miss the days of REAL MMO play. Loved permadeath and player looting in the old days, the days when you had to put forth real effort for what you had...but those days are likely gone.

Edited December 12, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Icebergy]

The market could stand to lose all hardcore players...they represent a small minority of players in the modern market. They could NOT, however, afford to lose casual players.

 

Casuals make companies more money, there is no doubt. But the hardcore crowd is what makes the community, the hardcore crowd is who makes the guides and teaches the casuals how to play. The hardcore crowd is much more important than you think to the health of a game.

[Kaedusz]

Why would they ever replace raiding ever?

Ask yourself what is raiding?Raiding is gathering a bunch of people to kill a big creature,which then rewards you.There are lore , gameplay mechanics and social aspects to it.

Why would any mmorpg ever remove that?

 

Yes, we are talking about mmorpgs,not just ''mmos''.In all rpgs you kill things.They will never ever remove the importance of killing stronger things with multiple people.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Kaedusz

[LordArtemis]

Casuals make companies more money, there is no doubt. But the hardcore crowd is what makes the community, the hardcore crowd is who makes the guides and teaches the casuals how to play. The hardcore crowd is much more important than you think to the health of a game.

 

I strongly disagree with the health of the game contention you made. That was the case in the past, but a game in the modern market is most healthy when it has PLAYERS. And the bulk of those players come from the casual group, not the hardcore group.

 

Most if not all games could afford to lose every hardcore player they have. They could not, however, likely survive a loss of even half of the casual playerbase.

 

Casuals players do not tend to use things like guides, theorycraft or min/max. Hardcores contribute next to nothing to the modern casual base. In fact, they sometimes create problems for casual players.

 

It is an unfortunate side effect of the state of the current market IMO. I feel something has been lost, MMOs have lost their soul so to speak. But that is the sign of the times.

Edited December 12, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Warrgames]

I strongly disagree with the health of the game contention you made. That was the case in the past, but a game in the modern market is most healthy when it has PLAYERS. And the bulk of those players come from the casual group, not the hardcore group.

 

Most if not all games could afford to lose every hardcore player they have. They could not, however, likely survive a loss of even half of the casual playerbase.

 

Casuals players do not tend to use things like guides, theorycraft or min/max. Hardcores contribute next to nothing to the modern casual base. In fact, they sometimes create problems for casual players.

 

It is an unfortunate side effect of the state of the current market IMO. I feel something has been lost, MMOs have lost their soul so to speak. But that is the sign of the times.

 

Who creates and maintain the sites that casuals use?

[Kaedusz]

I strongly disagree with the health of the game contention you made. That was the case in the past, but a game in the modern market is most healthy when it has PLAYERS. And the bulk of those players come from the casual group, not the hardcore group.

 

Most if not all games could afford to lose every hardcore player they have. They could not, however, likely survive a loss of even half of the casual playerbase.

 

Casuals players do not tend to use things like guides, theorycraft or min/max. Hardcores contribute next to nothing to the modern casual base. In fact, they sometimes create problems for casual players.

 

It is an unfortunate side effect of the state of the current market IMO. I feel something has been lost, MMOs have lost their soul so to speak. But that is the sign of the times.

 

When a casual wonders if he wanna plays a certain game or not he looks up videos and articles that hardcores make in order to figure out what the game is about.There are no stable mmo communities without hardcore nerds that basically give substance to games.PvP junkies,PvE freaks and Lore Nerds and their various combinations are important to every franchise.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Kaedusz

[Zoom_VI]

Refusing the cater to casuals will likely be the death of any game.

 

I agree with this sentiment but for entirely different reasons. Casuals are not the backbone of a game's income, rather casuals exist to appease the real backbone.

 

SWTOR has two income sources

1) subs

2) Cartel Market

 

Subscription income is based on the idea that players will invest large amounts of money over time. Subscription income hinges on players playing the game for large periods of time, ideally years. This is why all subscription games are called "perpetual games" since they are designed so that a players will stay around for ages.

Casuals don't work well with this as most casuals do not play the game for very long peroids, and often are f2p anyway.

 

The other source of income is the cartel market, which is a cash shop. Cash shops have a very specific target. Cash shops want what are called "whales" in the industry, whales being players with large amounts of disposable income who are willing to drop thousands of dollars just to get that one rare gear set. These players are few but they comprise most of any Cash Shop's income. Most Casuals are not whales, they may buy one or two things from time to time, but nothing major.

 

What makes casuals important is that without them you don't have long term players or whales. If you don't have a large pool of players for the whales to play with and for the long term players to do warzones and FPs with then those groups of players will start leaving too.

 

Casuals are important because they keep the pops coming and the worlds alive, so that the more invested players will stick around longer. There may be a million players playing every month but the majority of SWTOR's revenue is coming from less than a hundred-thousand of them.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[mleischer]

Why would they ever replace raiding ever?

Ask yourself what is raiding?Raiding is gathering a bunch of people to kill a big creature,which then rewards you.There are lore , gameplay mechanics and social aspects to it.

Why would any mmorpg ever remove that?

 

Yes, we are talking about mmorpgs,not just ''mmos''.In all rpgs you kill things.They will never ever remove the importance of killing stronger things with multiple people.

 

Um, developing raid content is a poor business decision for most games as they are only used by a tiny fraction of the player base. These games eventually have to turn a profit and as such need to focus on low level and casual content as that is where the money is. I honestly am tired of subsidizing content I, like the vast majority of players, have no interest doing and will be glad to see games stop wasting resources on them.

[mleischer]

When a casual wonders if he wanna plays a certain game or not he looks up videos and articles that hardcores make in order to figure out what the game is about.There are no stable mmo communities without hardcore nerds that basically give substance to games.PvP junkies,PvE freaks and Lore Nerds and their various combinations are important to every franchise.

 

The people you describe are not casuals. Casuals don't tend to go to secondary sites or watch videos on how to kill a boss. My wife and daughter played WoW for years without ever looking at forums or third party sites. A casual will eventually conclude "Bounty Hunter = Aim over everything" and will be totally fine never understanding secondary attributes in gear. Honestly, hardcore "communities" are often the problem.

[LordArtemis]

Who creates and maintain the sites that casuals use?

 

Generally no one, because it can be said that casuals do not use websites. Most of the game experience for a casual player comes directly from the game itself.

 

That is, of course, in general terms. There are always exceptions.

 

But generally speaking, a casual player does not engage in outside content. it is just not the normal behavior for a casual player.

 

I would like to add that stating the likely state of the MMO market at present is not an indictment of hardcore players, nor is it a license to ignore the needs of those players.

 

Study after study has concluded, without a doubt (other than different definitions for what makes a player "hardcore") that hardcore players are much more loyal and consistent than casual players. Casuals tend to be transient.

 

What those studies also generally conclude, however, is that traditional hardcore players represent anywhere from 10 to 30 percent of the current worldwide market (down from 70 to 80 percent of the market 10 years ago), depending on which report you source. The market of traditional hardcore players is shrinking, on average, by around 1 to 3 percent per year.

 

It seems the hardcore base is moving on to console FPS games and abandoning the MMO market.

 

It is an unfortunate but likely reality. Most if not all MMOs will eventually be VERY casual oriented. This game is likely no exception.

Edited December 12, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Khevar]

I honestly am tired of subsidizing content I, like the vast majority of players, have no interest doing and will be glad to see games stop wasting resources on them.

Why can't you simply accept it's possible for a game to have options for a variety of players?

 

I don't space PvP. I have no interest in it. I wouldn't bat an eye if it were removed from the game. And yet I don't feel like my subscription fees are "subsidizing content I have no interest in doing"

 

It's just a weird viewpoint. I'm paying for the content I'm actually playing. I'm not paying for the content other people are playing.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Khevar