Will raiding in MMOs one day be a thing of the past?

[TUXs]

Think content that scales like City of Heroes: scales to group size and player selected difficulty. Yes, that would mean that every instance would be solo'able, but every instance could also be a raid.

Ah, that I'd be perfectly fine with - scalable instances. Absolutely something that this game should have launched with.

[Khevar]

Nobody is talking the removal of repeatable content: they're talking about the removal of the heavily scripted, large group oriented content that is built exclusively for a minority percentage of the population while also excluding the majority from meaningful endgame progression.

As near as I can tell, there are but a few types of content in an MMO that keep people playing.

 

1. Newly created content added to the game.

2. Dynamic content, that is different because the players are able to change the game world.

3. Dynamic content, that is different becomes some aspect is randomized or changed.

4. Content that requires multiple attempts to "beat", with teh shiney rewards upon successfully doing so.

 

You seem to be advocating removing #4.

 

What would you suggest replacing it with? #1 requires employing enough people to actually create said content as fast as their target market is consuming it. #2 requires a sandbox environment. #3 requires a completely different engine.

 

You also used this phrase:

excluding the majority from meaningful endgame progression

Is your objection that "end game" is not open to everyone? That is is somehow exclusive?

 

Not every part of this game caters to every type of player. Some people like PvP. Some people like crafting. Some people like space combat. Some people like leveling. Some people like raids. Some people like a mix.

 

Variety is a good thing.

[TUXs]

That will still only appeal to hardcore players IMO. The majority of the market would remain uninterested.

 

Scaling content would likely have some appeal to casual players. KDY stands in evidence (though speculative).

NiM or very challenging content only appeals to the hardcore - not group content. I think group content appeals to most. Scaling I am 10000% in favor of!!!!

 

KDY also has the variable of variety (albeit limited) to boost its appeal...it's not great, but it isn't the same things EVERY time...which is why I kinda like it. I'd love to see a lot more like KDY.

[Jadescythe]

Think content that scales like City of Heroes: scales to group size and player selected difficulty. Yes, that would mean that every instance would be solo'able, but every instance could also be a raid.

 

I guess my question is why?

 

It takes far more development time to scale every instance to meet the needs of any group type. So now they have to create the content for a target size and then go back and adapt it for groups of 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. And it isn't just about damage or number of NPCs. We're talking boss raid mechanics that have to be removed and/or adapted. I mean, there is no reason to do a raid if it's just like any other mission in the game. It will take you 20 minutes and you'll never do it again because it's boring. The only appeal of operations currently is that it takes coordination and there are interesting mechanics to play around. You can choose a difficulty level on par with the skill/gear of your group and anyone can complete it.

 

I agree there should be solo content for players who don't always group or who don't always have time to group, but there is literally 0 reason to play an MMO if you do not plan to group at all. Single player games have the capability to offer far more to you as an individual player and do it far more effectively than an MMO ever could. It wouldn't make sense for them to try and target an audience that has better options, not to mention an audience that BW already targets in games like ME and DA.

[WSRB]

Ah, that I'd be perfectly fine with - scalable instances. Absolutely something that this game should have launched with.

 

I agree. It should be standard in every MMO, but even after ten years, no one has implemented anything remotely close to it.

[Sindorin]

Raiding a scripted boss seems boring to me. Once you get the mechanics, it gets old. PvP is where it's at.

[TUXs]

I agree. It should be standard in every MMO, but even after ten years, no one has implemented anything remotely close to it.

 

LOTRO has. It may be different than what you're thinking, but it's what I think of...their Flashpoint equivalents could be done solo (with your companion) or grouped - NPCs varied depending on who entered. Player levels also impacted the difficulty...and (it's been a while since I played it) you could adjust the difficulty from what I recall. Worked well most of the time.

[TUXs]

Raiding a scripted boss seems boring to me. Once you get the mechanics, it gets old. PvP is where it's at.

For a challenge, I agree 100%. But some nights, it's fun to take your time and go a bit slower than the pace of PvP. PvE is still challenging because Bioware didn't just add health, the NPCs have a slew of varying mechanics that keep them interesting.

[WSRB]

I guess my question is why?

 

It takes far more development time to scale every instance to meet the needs of any group type. So now they have to create the content for a target size and then go back and adapt it for groups of 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. And it isn't just about damage or number of NPCs. We're talking boss raid mechanics that have to be removed and/or adapted. I mean, there is no reason to do a raid if it's just like any other mission in the game. It will take you 20 minutes and you'll never do it again because it's boring. The only appeal of operations currently is that it takes coordination and there are interesting mechanics to play around. You can choose a difficulty level on par with the skill/gear of your group and anyone can complete it.

 

I agree there should be solo content for players who don't always group or who don't always have time to group, but there is literally 0 reason to play an MMO if you do not plan to group at all. Single player games have the capability to offer far more to you as an individual player and do it far more effectively than an MMO ever could. It wouldn't make sense for them to try and target an audience that has better options, not to mention an audience that BW already targets in games like ME and DA.

 

The need to create multiple versions of the same instance only happens in 100% scripted content. Instead of the completely scripted instances you're used to, the way you make it work is by creating "guidelines" for instances. Instead of set spawn points for a set number of mobs, the instance spawns the mobs in varying numbers in semi-randomized positions throughout. Vets of City of Heroes know exactly how this works, but people who never played that game have difficulty imagining it because they're largely used to fully scripted instances.

[Jadescythe]

The need to create multiple versions of the same instance only happens in 100% scripted content. Instead of the completely scripted instances you're used to, the way you make it work is by creating "guidelines" for instances. Instead of set spawn points for a set number of mobs, the instance spawns the mobs in varying numbers in semi-randomized positions throughout. Vets of City of Heroes know exactly how this works, but people who never played that game have difficulty imagining it because they're largely used to fully scripted instances.

 

I get the idea, but it's boring. You would basically have a thousand of the same type of instances because you can't create dynamic bosses. The game can't create mechanics for the NPCs to have, it can only randomize which ones and how many appear. The enjoyable part of the scripted boss fights are in learning the mechanics and getting a group of 8 or 16 people to coordinate to complete them. Coming up with a strategic way to complete the steps is a part of the process. Then you make it more difficult with harder mechanics, more health, more damage, etc. I don't need 100 dynamic areas to tank and spank hordes of NPCs the same way.

 

Now, if they can find a way for the system to design a unique instance with mechanics that change every time you enter, then they'd be on to something. It would literally be a new instance every time you went in. But that system does not exist as of yet.

[Khevar]

The enjoyable part of the scripted boss fights are in learning the mechanics and getting a group of 8 or 16 people to coordinate to complete them.

Particularly if done with friends.

 

I still enjoy single player games, and will continue to play them. But an MMO is appealing to me specifically because of the things I do with friends. One of these things is challenging group content -- I would be saddened if it were no longer a part of the game.

[WSRB]

 

You also used this phrase:

 

Is your objection that "end game" is not open to everyone? That is is somehow exclusive?

 

Not every part of this game caters to every type of player. Some people like PvP. Some people like crafting. Some people like space combat. Some people like leveling. Some people like raids. Some people like a mix.

 

Variety is a good thing.

The idea of excluding non-raiders from gear progression does not work anymore. In fact, it never did but there weren't any a lot of alternatives around when MMOs started up. When you expect 60 to 80% of your players to pay for content that they're not going to use while simultaneously getting their progression halted becuase they choose not to use that content, those people start asking "why they hell do they keep making stuff that so few people use, and why should I keep paying for it?" A big part of the reason for all the crash and burns we're seeing in MMOs has to do with the fact that the statistical majority are getting fed up with getting handed the short end of the stick.

[LordArtemis]

NiM or very challenging content only appeals to the hardcore - not group content. I think group content appeals to most. Scaling I am 10000% in favor of!!!!

 

KDY also has the variable of variety (albeit limited) to boost its appeal...it's not great, but it isn't the same things EVERY time...which is why I kinda like it. I'd love to see a lot more like KDY.

 

Fair on all counts Tux. Not sure I would agree with your group appeal contention, but it is just my opinion.

Edited November 25, 2014 by LordArtemis

[LordArtemis]

I agree there should be solo content for players who don't always group or who don't always have time to group, but there is literally 0 reason to play an MMO if you do not plan to group at all.

 

This argument could be made, and I do not contend it is illogical, but at the same time I wonder if it is a bit myopic.

 

The market has changed, and continues to change further into a casual dominated market. In that market, mmo is no longer defined by "group participation", but instead is being defined more and more by "population proximity". Players want to play AROUND other players, players they can talk to, sell items to, buy items from, etc...but not necessarily group up to do content.

 

MMOs are becoming more social and less cooperative. This is all very general of course, but the numbers for group participation is in general decline across the market, while the number of players continues to rise.

 

End game progression is simply not the driving force in MMOs that it once was.

 

The first casualty was "gated content" and "attunement". It has mostly vanished from almost all MMOs on the market at present.

 

This is why I contend that raids will not likely disappear, but will likely transform into something that barely resembles raiding from the past. The general rule seems to be, more often than not, that casual folks need access.

Edited November 25, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Aries_cz]

I would recommend reading this paper by professor Bartle from May 2013, he raises some interesting points

http://mud.co.uk/richard/The%20Decline%20of%20MMOs.pdf

[LordArtemis]

I would recommend reading this paper by professor Bartle from May 2013, he raises some interesting points

http://mud.co.uk/richard/The%20Decline%20of%20MMOs.pdf

 

Thanks for that Aries.

[SaceDelora]

I only play MMOs to raid. Take out the raiding and I'll play something with an endgame.

[MysteryJoker]

The idea of excluding non-raiders from gear progression does not work anymore. In fact, it never did but there weren't any a lot of alternatives around when MMOs started up. When you expect 60 to 80% of your players to pay for content that they're not going to use while simultaneously getting their progression halted becuase they choose not to use that content, those people start asking "why they hell do they keep making stuff that so few people use, and why should I keep paying for it?" A big part of the reason for all the crash and burns we're seeing in MMOs has to do with the fact that the statistical majority are getting fed up with getting handed the short end of the stick.

 

You literally just complained about every game known to existence with difficulty rewards. I'm not sure you're aware of this or not but that's exactly what you just did. You paid, more than likely, for a single player game with an achievement award, a bonus scene or bonus item upon completion of said harder difficulty and... I highly doubt you ever complained about this. That's the exact equivalence you are moaning about.

[Khevar]

When you expect 60 to 80% of your players to pay for content that they're not going to use while simultaneously getting their progression halted becuase they choose not to use that content, those people start asking "why they hell do they keep making stuff that so few people use, and why should I keep paying for it?"

This is flawed logic. I don't do space missions (PvE or PvP). Does this mean I'm "paying for content that I'm not going to use"?

 

NO IT DOESN'T. What I'm paying for, is the content that I AM using, not the content that I'm NOT using.

 

Take a player that never PvPs. He or she does leveling, crafting, heriocs, maybe a few flashpoints. Are you trying to say they're "paying for content they're not going to use"?

 

I completely disagree with your perspective here. Just because I don't like something in this game doesn't mean I want it to be removed. I'm happy to do the things I like and ignore the things I don't.

[Khevar]

MMOs are becoming more social and less cooperative. This is all very general of course, but the numbers for group participation is in general decline across the market, while the number of players continues to rise.

You make a very interesting point here.

 

Speaking only for myself (of course), I find that cooperative aspects of gameplay (with friends) is more enjoyable than social aspects of gameplay (with strangers).

 

In my first visit to Ord Mantell many moons ago, I saw other player avatars running around Fort Garnick. It was interesting, but largely non-interactive. To me, it was little more than oddly-named NPCs doing random things. I was content to be a solo player. In fact, the bulk of my Smuggler story experience could have been delivered in a single player game and it would have been practically identical.

 

It wasn't until I got into the cooperative parts (flashpoints) that I discovered another dimension to the game. It was this experience that (for me) made it more than "single player plus".

 

You may be right in that the trend will be to move away from cooperative. I'll repeat my earlier opinion: If that turns out to be the case, I would be sad. Cooperative gameplay is precisely what (for me) makes an MMORPG more than a single player game.

 

/2cr

Edited November 26, 2014 by Khevar

[Darth_Advent]

I doubt that features called "raids" will vanish from MMORPGs anytime soon, but I do think they'll change so radically from the days of World of Warcraft's Burning Crusade expansion that people who play mainly to raid will claim that raiding is dead or doesn't exist.

[Drudenfusz]

I would recommend reading this paper by professor Bartle from May 2013, he raises some interesting points

http://mud.co.uk/richard/The%20Decline%20of%20MMOs.pdf

Indeed, interesting read! Thanks for that link!

[HazardousMatt]

This is flawed logic. I don't do space missions (PvE or PvP). Does this mean I'm "paying for content that I'm not going to use"?

 

NO IT DOESN'T. What I'm paying for, is the content that I AM using, not the content that I'm NOT using.

 

Take a player that never PvPs. He or she does leveling, crafting, heriocs, maybe a few flashpoints. Are you trying to say they're "paying for content they're not going to use"?

 

I completely disagree with your perspective here. Just because I don't like something in this game doesn't mean I want it to be removed. I'm happy to do the things I like and ignore the things I don't.

 

With respect, I think you may have misunderstood his point. I took his post to mean that the majority/all of content development shouldn't be targeted at endgame progression raiders, which in the past is what most MMO's have done.

 

I don't think anyone expects every player to take advantage of every part of the game. The issue some of us (maybe even many of us) have is when there is "one true way" so to speak. Want to see your character grow past the level cap? Better polish up your spec/rotation and get ready for that raid! That's what some people (myself included) take exception to.

[Khevar]

With respect, I think you may have misunderstood his point. I took his post to mean that the majority/all of content development shouldn't be targeted at endgame progression raiders, which in the past is what most MMO's have done.

 

I don't think anyone expects every player to take advantage of every part of the game. The issue some of us (maybe even many of us) have is when there is "one true way" so to speak. Want to see your character grow past the level cap? Better polish up your spec/rotation and get ready for that raid! That's what some people (myself included) take exception to.

You make a fair point, and I don't disagree with it.

 

But could anyone honestly claim that the majority/all of content development in SW:TOR has been targeted toward endgame progression raiders? Particularly over the last year (and change)?

[Projawa]

Isn't GW2 already doing what the article suggests? Players participate in zerg farming world bosses rather than instanced raids.

 

Most MMOers are folks interested in just hanging out, vs the raider minority who are interested in cooperative puzzle-solving sometimes but not always as a mechanism for epeen flexing.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Projawa