Will raiding in MMOs one day be a thing of the past?

[LordArtemis]

There are folks that are resistant to grouping, and those that flat out refuse to group. This much is certainly true. But I also believe there are those that are turned off by it, but would still be willing to give it a try if they just had the opportunity to actually become somewhat competent before they jumped in.

 

The biggest detriment to entering end game content, IMO, for a casual is the lack of experience and knowledge. Casuals are generally comfortable with and good at playing their class solo, and do not wish to be embarrassed by a poor performance in a group.

 

I strongly believe that if you provide the proper path to learning how to effectively participate in end game content the casuals will embrace it....at least some of them.

 

Certainly very few if any are doing so now. The only way to go is up.....you are not going to turn off casuals by making the road to entry easier, and you are certainly not going to alienate raiders or PVP players as long as they still have the most difficult content to enjoy, untouched.

Edited January 12, 2015 by LordArtemis

[Jandi]

There are folks that are resistant to grouping, and those that flat out refuse to group. This much is certainly true. But I also believe there are those that are turned off by it, but would still be willing to give it a try if they just had the opportunity to actually become somewhat competent before they jumped in.

 

The biggest detriment to entering end game content, IMO, for a casual is the lack of experience and knowledge. Casuals are generally comfortable with and good at playing their class solo, and do not wish to be embarrassed by a poor performance in a group.

 

I strongly believe that if you provide the proper path to learning how to effectively participate in end game content the casuals will embrace it....at least some of them.

 

Certainly very few if any are doing so now. The only way to go is up.....you are not going to turn off casuals by making the road to entry easier, and you are certainly not going to alienate raiders or PVP players as long as they still have the most difficult content to enjoy, untouched.

 

And how exactly do you suggest to implement such a thing?

 

Doing tacticals or solo flashpoints teaches you NOTHING. You can do 594578 tacticals and sill be absolutely horrendous at the game, because they can be soloed, they are that easy. The only way to learn is to fail, repeatedly, till you no longer fail. That's how all of us learned, maybe in SWTOR, maybe in previous games, but every single of us "hardcore players" everyone loves to hate were once in our first dungeon/instance/whatever with a thumb up our nose.

 

There is nothing BW can do to build peoples character as a human being so they're no longer afraid of failure, but instead take it as a learning experience.

 

I asked earlier, but got no answer. Why not advertize you want to start a newbie group? If so many (as is always claimed) want to play that way? Surely you would have a group ready to go instantly.

[Fidelicatessen]

Star Wars is by far the greatest movie franchise of all time they kinda created the franchise genre before Star Wars sure there was the odd sequel but Star Wars changed the format. So a lot of people had high hopes for the worlds greatest franchise. We got a mediocre game. The story telling aspect all the cut scenes are probably the best part of the game and no other MMO has that. But besides that we are not much different and I think that's why people came to try it out and they left Becuase it was awe inspiring and next level as the movies were for their time. I also think that's why the second set of movies have been critiqued so much because the first three movies changed movies and story telling so much that the second set really couldn't compare because they weren't omg a step up from anything else. Star Wars has a mindset to it and for the greatest franchise out there it deserves the greatest game out there.

 

Star Wars the greatest movie franchise? HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!

 

The most overhyped, sure (seriously, the nearest contender is in the next state). The greatest? Jayzis no, not even close.

 

Two words: James Bond.

[souloferdrick]

Big bad bosses that need killing should stick around. Having that boss require a double digit headcount with a dedicated raid team, executing flawlessly for hours at a time for weeks and months on end after spending weeks in months in other raids to gear up for the current fight can go the way of the dinosaur.

[Fidelicatessen]

[quote=LordArtemis;7942141

The biggest detriment to entering end game content, IMO, for a casual is the lack of experience and knowledge. Casuals are generally comfortable with and good at playing their class solo, and do not wish to be embarrassed by a poor performance in a group.

 

I've seen those people in KDY. They aren't good at playing their class solo, SWTOR is just easymode so they can finish their class quests solo. That's not the same as being good at it.

 

To be fair, there are also some who are good at playing their class solo. Those are also the people who learn well and are often welcomed along on a SM Ops PUG.

 

I think that scheduled newb runs of SM Ops would be a great idea for any server. Just be prepared to wipe, because that's how you learn. The problem would come in because there are SO MANY casual players who have zero idea how to play their class (again, queue up for KDY a few times if you doubt me).

[Mavajo]

People say that one of the cornerstone features of MMOs is playing with large numbers of people, particularly in a cooperative effort. I agree. However, why is it assumed that this cooperative effort with large numbers of people always needs to be done simultaneously in a group (raiding, etc.)?

 

For example: I love MMOs. I love playing with other people (chatting, interacting, etc.). I love working towards a goal. I also used to raid extensively in the past. I was a Main Tank in an old school 40-man WoW progression raiding guild. If you know anything about progression raiding in WoW back in those days, you know that the MT pretty much had to be your most dedicated raider - he needed to be at every single raid, because you invested gear in him so that he could withstand the bosses; if your MT died, your raid wiped. Simple enough. Point is - I was a hardcore raider. ~3 hours a night, 4-5 nights a week, and I was there for every single one.

 

But now? I'm 30, married, work full time and have a house to take care of. Fortunately, I've got a good wife that doesn't mind me screwing around and wasting time playing a game - and in the end, I'm still able to waste a pretty ungodly amount of hours playing games. But blocking out X amount of hours Y nights a week isn't practical anymore. I play when I can. Some weeks, I get to play almost as much as I used to; but other weeks, I may go almost the entire week without even touching my computer. So raiding doesn't hold much interest for me anymore, because I can't invest myself into it properly ("properly" per my definition).

 

But I still love MMOs. And I still enjoy being in a guild and working towards a goal. It'd be nice if MMOs could get rid of the tunnel-vision that says "end game progression = grouping/raiding". Why does that mantra persist? Because that's how it's always been, I suppose. But I see no reason why it HAS to be that way. Think of your job. It's dozens, hundreds or even thousands of people working towards some common goal. But how often are you "grouped" - e.g., multiple people sitting down together doing something at the same time? Rarely. Sure, you're all in an office together, but you're generally working independently and passing things along to each other - it's rare that you're all sitting around a table together hammering something out as a group. Why can't MMOs emulate that? Why can't there be some major goal that you work together as a group, but you each make your individual contributions as your schedule allows? It can still take significant time and effort - but why do you need to all be doing at the exact same time in a group together?

 

It's a pipe dream, because the raiding/grouping model is strongly entrenched in MMOs.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Mavajo

[souloferdrick]

People say that one of the cornerstone features of MMOs is playing with large numbers of people, particularly in a cooperative effort. I agree. However, why is it assumed that this cooperative effort with large numbers of people always needs to be done simultaneously in a group (raiding, etc.)?

 

I don't think knocking out content in a large group is the problem...the problem is it tends to be exclusionary.

 

Group content should be prevalent in an MMORPG but the focus should be on story and community instead of feeding into the mania of the epeen crowd.

 

If I had my way, end game content would be trinity based, tank n spank 5 mans that advance the plot. Perhaps with some attunements prior to access. Those seeking challenge could do the content with less people or in gear a notch or two below the ideal minimum etc etc.

[LanceCorporalDan]

I don't think knocking out content in a large group is the problem...the problem is it tends to be exclusionary.

 

Group content should be prevalent in an MMORPG but the focus should be on story and community instead of feeding into the mania of the epeen crowd.

 

If I had my way, end game content would be trinity based, tank n spank 5 mans that advance the plot. Perhaps with some attunements prior to access. Those seeking challenge could do the content with less people or in gear a notch or two below the ideal minimum etc etc.

 

I agree with your first two points. The endgame phases tend to lock out casual players from entering easily.

 

I also agree that story and community are more important in this game. I say this game and not MMORPGs in general because the focus of the games would lie in their intended target audiences. This is obviously a more casual game without heavy focus on endgame PvE/PvP.

 

The last point I'm not so sure about. I believe raiders still need their challenging mechanics and enrage checks etc. And I am against simplifying all end game PvE. But rather make the entrance process easier for more.

[LordArtemis]

And how exactly do you suggest to implement such a thing?

 

Doing tacticals or solo flashpoints teaches you NOTHING. You can do 594578 tacticals and sill be absolutely horrendous at the game, because they can be soloed, they are that easy. The only way to learn is to fail, repeatedly, till you no longer fail. That's how all of us learned, maybe in SWTOR, maybe in previous games, but every single of us "hardcore players" everyone loves to hate were once in our first dungeon/instance/whatever with a thumb up our nose.

 

There is nothing BW can do to build peoples character as a human being so they're no longer afraid of failure, but instead take it as a learning experience.

 

I asked earlier, but got no answer. Why not advertize you want to start a newbie group? If so many (as is always claimed) want to play that way? Surely you would have a group ready to go instantly.

 

Solos and Tacticals are the first step, because solo mode introduces you to group like content, tacticals introduce you to cooperative play.

 

The learning point would be in SM flashpoints, which I would make easier. Much easier, but still require a trinity setup.

 

In fact, these are the changes I would make to All SM flashpoins.....

 

1) The fights would be made much easier, the bosses easier to kill. They would be tuned to around the same difficulty as Tacticals (perhaps a bit more), but without the healing kiosks.

 

2) Deaths in Planetary Heroics, Solo, Tactical and SM flashpoints would no longer have repair costs.

 

That is where the real training would take place, and the reduced difficulty would make it far more likely that experienced players would be willing to help inexperienced ones, since the flashpoint itself would be much more forgiving of mistakes.

 

The intent is to move casuals into HM flashpoints, then SM Ops and HM Ops eventually. Once they get a taste, hopefully they would be hooked.

 

The rewards for HMs and all Ops would have to be increased.

Edited January 12, 2015 by LordArtemis

[Drockter]

I

I think that scheduled newb runs of SM Ops would be a great idea for any server. Just be prepared to wipe, because that's how you learn.

 

I like to do exactly this.

 

When guildmates hit 50, I make it a point to run an EV... then progress through them. Lately (with new equipment tho... these are going by too quickly).

[Jandi]

Solos and Tacticals are the first step, because solo mode introduces you to group like content, tacticals introduce you to cooperative play.

 

The learning point would be in SM flashpoints, which I would make easier. Much easier, but still require a trinity setup.

 

In fact, these are the changes I would make to All SM flashpoins.....

 

1) The fights would be made much easier, the bosses easier to kill. They would be tuned to around the same difficulty as Tacticals (perhaps a bit more), but without the healing kiosks.

 

2) Deaths in Planetary Heroics, Solo, Tactical and SM flashpoints would no longer have repair costs.

 

That is where the real training would take place, and the reduced difficulty would make it far more likely that experienced players would be willing to help inexperienced ones, since the flashpoint itself would be much more forgiving of mistakes.

 

The intent is to move casuals into HM flashpoints, then SM Ops and HM Ops eventually. Once they get a taste, hopefully they would be hooked.

 

The rewards for HMs and all Ops would have to be increased.

 

SM FPs are already trivial, even HM FP's are hilariously easy, (this is the important part) in MY opinion. Lowering the bar accomplishes nothing. The bar has been lowered systematically in WoW since TBC and it has accomplished absolutely nothing. An inch away from triviality is "too hard" to these people. Tacticals were supposed to be thing to bridge the gap and what happened? NOTHING.

 

Until newbies/bad players stop stomping their feet, think about how to imporve their game and stop whining, no amount of steps will ever accomplish anything. The moment content requires ANY skill with the class, people start complaining about it's difficulty.

 

To use a terrible analogy, no matter how shallow the pool is, if you're terrified of water you'll never learn to swim.

[Amaste]

Star Wars the greatest movie franchise? HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!

 

The most overhyped, sure (seriously, the nearest contender is in the next state). The greatest? Jayzis no, not even close.

 

Two words: James Bond.

 

Offtopic as hell, but:

As a huge Star Wars and James Bond fan, I agree with Star Wars being over hyped but disagree with the bond films being the greatest film franchise.

[Knorlac]

 

1) The fights would be made much easier, the bosses easier to kill. They would be tuned to around the same difficulty as Tacticals (perhaps a bit more), but without the healing kiosks.

 

2) Deaths in Planetary Heroics, Solo, Tactical and SM flashpoints would no longer have repair costs.

 

That is where the real training would take place, and the reduced difficulty would make it far more likely that experienced players would be willing to help inexperienced ones, since the flashpoint itself would be much more forgiving of mistakes.

 

The rewards for HMs and all Ops would have to be increased.

 

SM flashpoints are a breeze as is IMO. Players who are truly struggling in those will most likely never attempt their HM equivalents IMO.

 

Considering the training aspect, I don't see where it is to take place, if there is no pressure at all. (There barely is now IMO) If there is no need for a DPS to heed what he's attacking, he won't learn it before eventually hitting the same wall you're trying to avoid. If a tank can attack one foe and won't have to bother about the 5 others swarming the healer and still succeed he won't learn anytime soon. And if there is no pressure on the healer he won't learn to use the right rotation and to prioritize when **** hits the fan.

 

As for the experienced helping the new guys, I'm not sure about it. If the difficulty was reduced even more, there would be simply no need to explain much. The newbies would be able to do pretty much whatever they please and two or even one experienced and well geared player would be able to carry them through it without much hassle(as is the case in SM FP's even now IMO).

 

In my personal case, the rewards would have to be elevated to an unjustifiable hights, for me to even do this content as I'm already avoiding tacticals because of the sheer boredom of just going through the motions without having to pay much attention to anything.

[souloferdrick]

The last point I'm not so sure about. I believe raiders still need their challenging mechanics and enrage checks etc. And I am against simplifying all end game PvE. But rather make the entrance process easier for more.

 

What's the point of making it easier to get into group content if the content is either too hard or too time consuming for people to want to do? Wouldn't doing the content with less people make it more challenging? Wouldn't operating outside of linear cookie cutter norms without an over-gear crutch make content more challenging?

 

I see a lot of talk about wanting or needing a challenge but by the very nature of the way hard group content is tackled by raid guilds undermines that argument. Every conceivable advantage is sought after and utilized in an effort to take down bosses. I'm not saying its right or wrong but what happens is the devs have to keep pushing the envelope to keep content "challenging" which just caters to an increasingly smaller group thus alienating people beyond a certain threshold until, like the article talks about, designers are spending more and more time and money designing content for less and less people.

 

Much like people who say questing is monotonous because from level 1 to the level cap its just Fed Ex here, go there, kill ten of X and collect ten of Y, gimmick 101 raiding is the same stuff over and over again. Today its don't stand in the fire, tomorrow its dont stand in the fizzy purple goo. A missed taunt used to put more pressure on heals but now its just a wipe, etc etc.

 

The point being we can help ourselves out in the challenge department without hanging it all on designers.

[LordArtemis]

SM FPs are already trivial, even HM FP's are hilariously easy, (this is the important part) in MY opinion. Lowering the bar accomplishes nothing. The bar has been lowered systematically in WoW since TBC and it has accomplished absolutely nothing. An inch away from triviality is "too hard" to these people. Tacticals were supposed to be thing to bridge the gap and what happened? NOTHING.

 

See, I would disagree with most of your points here, but I must admit I am privy to the same information as you likely are, so it is supposition naturally. That means I can most certainly be wrong...I just wanted to point that out.

 

I will give my points in counter....

 

I agree that for raiders most of the end game play, with perhaps the exception of HM Ops are trivial. However, for casuals they are not trivial at all I would expect. I feel that a lowered bar for entry has and would have a huge difference....I have seen plenty of casual participation in tacticals, plenty of enthusiasm for solo mode for FA, and also an uptick in new players giving SM flashpoints a shot. This tells me that tacticals did their job.

 

Also, in WoW it has been said by Blizzard (and I am generalizing here) that difficulty was killing raid participation, and ease of entry coupled with reducing difficulty on lower tier raids has caused raiding to not only survive but thrive in that game. Percentage wise I believe WoW has one of the biggest raiding communities in MMOs.

 

So I disagree that nothing happened. Too much evidence to the contrary.

 

Until newbies/bad players stop stomping their feet, think about how to imporve their game and stop whining, no amount of steps will ever accomplish anything. The moment content requires ANY skill with the class, people start complaining about it's difficulty.

 

I disagree with the characterization and sentiment. This feels more like an insult directed at casuals than an actual reputable viewpoint...and it is passing the buck IMO.

 

If ANYONE as a player type is responsible for poor participate rates it is a toxic RAIDING community, not casual players that do not know "how to play their class". If it was left up to these exclusionary, opinionated and stubborn types raids WOULD die eventually.

 

I would even state that some raiders would rather see raids die than have them more accessible to casual players. And that, to me, is very telling.

 

To use a terrible analogy, no matter how shallow the pool is, if you're terrified of water you'll never learn to swim.

 

Again, and I want to make this clear, that is not to say that there are not casuals that refuse to learn or complain no matter what...of course there are those. But they are a minority IMO...most casuals are likely fairly skilled with their class in solo play, have reasonably acceptable gear and are open to learning and trying new things.

 

But it can be said that those players can be adverse to the group dynamic due to the combination of difficulty level, toxic community and the avoidance of the group dynamic.

 

More needs to be done IMO, and I have laid out my opinions to that respect. We just simply do not agree on this issue.

[Knorlac]

 

But they are a minority IMO...most casuals are likely fairly skilled with their class in solo play, have reasonably acceptable gear and are open to learning and trying new things.

 

[/i]

 

And that's all that's needed to succeed in the current SM FPs without much of a problem IMO.

[LordArtemis]

And that's all that's needed to succeed in the current SM FPs without much of a problem IMO.

 

True, but the community stands in the way of that, especially in Pugs (which is silly IMO...why run a Pug if you are worried about group performance? It is a random grouping tool).

 

If the difficulty level was lower and there was no death tax I think the current raiding community that joins pugs would be more forgiving of new raiders.

[Knorlac]

True, but the community stands in the way of that, especially in Pugs (which is silly IMO...why run a Pug if you are worried about group performance? It is a random grouping tool).

 

If the difficulty level was lower and there was no death tax I think the current raiding community that joins pugs would be more forgiving of new raiders.

 

Perhaps it is a server thing? I've seen my share of the vitriol you describe in HM FPs and SM Ops for sure, but not much, if any of it, in SM FPs. They're more than forgiving towards suboptimal play as it is IMO and the last time I remember that I was in a PuG for one of them that failed was shortly after launch.

[Djiini]

Perhaps it is a server thing? I've seen my share of the vitriol you describe in HM FPs and SM Ops for sure, but not much, if any of it, in SM FPs. They're more than forgiving towards suboptimal play as it is IMO and the last time I remember that I was in a PuG for one of them that failed was shortly after launch.

 

I had a group in HM Dread Fortress that was fine with me being geared in basic 172s, but then a group in SM The Ravagers who flipped **** at me for not using Teamspeak.

 

So.

[Knorlac]

I had a group in HM Dread Fortress that was fine with me being geared in basic 172s, but then a group in SM The Ravagers who flipped **** at me for not using Teamspeak.

 

So.

 

As I said, I experienced plenty of it in SM OPs, but LA was talking about SM FPs.

[Djiini]

As I said, I experienced plenty of it in SM OPs, but LA was talking about SM FPs.

 

Oh.

 

Well, getting whiny about flashpoints is silly in pretty much any context. They're that easy. Literally the only flashpoint I've ever wiped on consistently was Foundry, and I'm a filthy casual.

[LordArtemis]

Perhaps it is a server thing? I've seen my share of the vitriol you describe in HM FPs and SM Ops for sure, but not much, if any of it, in SM FPs. They're more than forgiving towards suboptimal play as it is IMO and the last time I remember that I was in a PuG for one of them that failed was shortly after launch.

 

Fair enough, on my server the raiding community, at least those that generally participate in SM flashpoints through groupfinder are toxic. I have started an earnest campaign at kicking these sorts of players....and I warn them when I start the run. I usually get folks to agree, as most fair minded folks understand that this is the place for folks to learn, and those kind of toxic players ruin the experience for everyone.

 

They even make their way into Tacticals, which to me is insane.

 

I have also been pushing everyone to roll need.

 

Needless to say I have a very long ignore list filled with demanding raiders.

Edited January 12, 2015 by LordArtemis

[Eanelinea]

I'm of the mind, they use the Death Tax as a way to have players make sure they're actually trying their best to pass the content, whatever it may be.

 

Just be VERY VERY thankful that all we have to do when we die is repair our armor. In Everquest if you died at all for ANY reason, you lost EXPERIENCE. So, think of it this way: you JUST hit 60, you have maybe 1-10 xp points into the bar, just enough to let the program know 'oh hai ur 60!' and you died during a flashpoint, raid, pvp, whatever you do that causes you to die. Well, the 'punishment' or 'tax' for your death is you lost 50% of your experience. So you are no longer level 60, but you are now level 59.

 

So, as I said, sure no repercussions on death would be awesome, but be happy all you gotta do when you die is pay money to repair. I much rather spend money then have to keep releveling especially since I'm a raider.

[Jandi]

 

I agree that for raiders most of the end game play, with perhaps the exception of HM Ops are trivial. However, for casuals they are not trivial at all I would expect. I feel that a lowered bar for entry has and would have a huge difference....I have seen plenty of casual participation in tacticals, plenty of enthusiasm for solo mode for FA, and also an uptick in new players giving SM flashpoints a shot. This tells me that tacticals did their job.

 

But they aren't any better as players. It's the same mentality you see in schools. Lower the bar so more people pass, then wonder why people are dumb and ignorant.

 

Not calling anyone anything, just another bad analogy.

 

Also, in WoW it has been said by Blizzard (and I am generalizing here) that difficulty was killing raid participation, and ease of entry coupled with reducing difficulty on lower tier raids has caused raiding to not only survive but thrive in that game. Percentage wise I believe WoW has one of the biggest raiding communities in MMOs.

 

Raid participation hans't incrased, LFR participation has. LFR is a complete and utter joke. It's like doing a tactical flashpoints with 16 people. Half the raid can be afk and the only difference is that it takes longer.

 

So I disagree that nothing happened. Too much evidence to the contrary.

 

Only if you misrepresent it. Easy tiers are always more populated as they can be pugged more easily. In fact, normals in WoW are really easy, so I want to emphasise that HM raid participation (now mythic) hasn't increased.

 

I disagree with the characterization and sentiment. This feels more like an insult directed at casuals than an actual reputable viewpoint...and it is passing the buck IMO.

 

If ANYONE as a player type is responsible for poor participate rates it is a toxic RAIDING community, not casual players that do not know "how to play their class". If it was left up to these exclusionary, opinionated and stubborn types raids WOULD die eventually.

 

I agree. Too many people are too quick to forget how horrible they were a month ago and act like they've been reaiding for 10 years. Mostly perpetrated by people who barely met the bar themselves. Funnily enough, the 3 hardcore WoW raiding guilds I've been in, with oldschool raiders, new people were never verbally abused. Well, anymore than any other member. Sometimes, the RL just loses patience with people making the same mistakes over and over again. I know as I've lost my **** a handful of times while leading a raid. Apart from being in a leading position, I never critizise other members of the raid, because quite frankly, it's not my place if I'm not leading.

 

But that's not directed at new players, that's directed at people messing up repeatedly on same mechanics.

 

I would even state that some raiders would rather see raids die than have them more accessible to casual players. And that, to me, is very telling.

 

*some* people in every single group of people are always morons.

 

Again, and I want to make this clear, that is not to say that there are not casuals that refuse to learn or complain no matter what...of course there are those. But they are a minority IMO...most casuals are likely fairly skilled with their class in solo play, have reasonably acceptable gear and are open to learning and trying new things.

 

But it can be said that those players can be adverse to the group dynamic due to the combination of difficulty level, toxic community and the avoidance of the group dynamic.

 

And I ask for the 3rd time. If these people are so prevalent, why not advertize that they want to start a newbie group? Surely the group would fill up instantly.

More needs to be done IMO, and I have laid out my opinions to that respect. We just simply do not agree on this issue.

 

I agree, partly, with many of your points. However, lowering the bar has never made anyone better at anything. It simply means that more people can raech the bar. In fact, I think it will only exclamate the problem of elitism. Now with Mythic raids in WoW you're a worhtess noob if you're not doing them, which is just stupid. Even though I've done 6/7 in the current tier on mythic, HM is still hard due to tight mechanics, and is by no means on "farm".

 

I also want to stress that I know my writing style seems blunt, or even rude, but it's not intended as such. Us Finns are blunt and to the point in our communication, don't take it as being argumentative.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Jandi

[souloferdrick]

Also, in WoW it has been said by Blizzard (and I am generalizing here) that difficulty was killing raid participation

 

Trying to keep raid content challenging for players who whole modus operandi was trivializing raid content turned off a lot of people because the bar for participation was set ridiculously high.

 

and ease of entry coupled with reducing difficulty on lower tier raids has caused raiding to not only survive but thrive in that game. Percentage wise I believe WoW has one of the biggest raiding communities in MMOs.

 

Some would argue that their LFR system for end game raids isn't masochistic enough to really be called raiding.

 

However, lowering the bar has never made anyone better at anything.

 

While 100% true, I think it begs the question why it needs to be that way (segregating'ly difficult) in the first place.

Edited January 12, 2015 by souloferdrick