Flagging and Feign Death

[Cidanel]

We need to stop saying it is the fault of the PvEer and that they are careless. No! they are being griefed and I'll point out something most of you seem to have forgotten. The "PvPer" is feigning death right on top of a mob to loot. So what can I do? I try to loot the mob I killed and get flagged. THAT is why it is griefing and not silly slap & tickle or pve vs pvp. You are preventing me from collecting my loot.

 

Look, if you are feigning death in the middle of an empty field and I come and "loot" you, that's on me. But when you are preventing me from playing the game, that's on you.

 

Be careful where you click when you loot. If you are dumb enough to fall for it, then you deserve to fight the PvPer. People being stupid doesn't mean the other person is griefing'. You don't happen to be one of those people who thinks listing items for high prices on the GTN is a scam, are you? Feign death is griefing as much as that is a scam.

[Aussircaex]

Be careful where you click when you loot. If you are dumb enough to fall for it, then you deserve to fight the PvPer. People being stupid doesn't mean the other person is griefing'. You don't happen to be one of those people who thinks listing items for high prices on the GTN is a scam, are you? Feign death is griefing as much as that is a scam.

 

So this one time, a friend of mine was at the gym, practicing with a punching bag. He was beating the **** out of that punching bag.

 

Then, this other guy suddenly and without warning steps in between the punching bag and my friend. My friend accidentally socks this guy. In response, the guy kicked my friend in the groin, tackled him, and viciously punched him until his eyes were bloody and his nose and two ribs were broken.

 

Then the guy laughed at him, and said "Be more careful when you practice with the punching bag. You were stupid enough to punch me, so I got permission to beat you senseless. I'm completely innocent, it's entirely your fault you punched me first. If you didn't want to bare-knuckle box me you shouldn't have punched me. "

 

He then went to the locker room and high five'd his friends that he was so cool for beating up that carebear.

[Joesixxpack]

So this one time, a friend of mine was at the gym, practicing with a punching bag. He was beating the **** out of that punching bag.

 

Then, this other guy suddenly and without warning steps in between the punching bag and my friend. My friend accidentally socks this guy. In response, the guy kicked my friend in the groin, tackled him, and viciously punched him until his eyes were bloody and his nose and two ribs were broken.

 

Then the guy laughed at him, and said "Be more careful when you practice with the punching bag. You were stupid enough to punch me, so I got permission to beat you senseless. I'm completely innocent, it's entirely your fault you punched me first. If you didn't want to bare-knuckle box me you shouldn't have punched me. "

 

He then went to the locker room and high five'd his friends that he was so cool for beating up that carebear.

 

Your friend earned the beating by having such poor awareness and not wearing aug'd PVP gear to the gym. If the girlie man goes back he should at least bind heroic moment and not keep his heal comp. off gathering protein shake mats.

[Cidanel]

So this one time, a friend of mine was at the gym, practicing with a punching bag. He was beating the **** out of that punching bag.

 

Then, this other guy suddenly and without warning steps in between the punching bag and my friend. My friend accidentally socks this guy. In response, the guy kicked my friend in the groin, tackled him, and viciously punched him until his eyes were bloody and his nose and two ribs were broken.

 

Then the guy laughed at him, and said "Be more careful when you practice with the punching bag. You were stupid enough to punch me, so I got permission to beat you senseless. I'm completely innocent, it's entirely your fault you punched me first. If you didn't want to bare-knuckle box me you shouldn't have punched me. "

 

He then went to the locker room and high five'd his friends that he was so cool for beating up that carebear.

 

In what universe is that the same thing?

 

Feign death is:

 

Your friend is at the gym punching a punching bag. Someone stands between him and the bag. He sees the person, assumes he must be asleep so he won't react, and punches. Yes, your friend deserves to be punched back.

[Aussircaex]

In what universe is that the same thing?

 

Feign death is:

 

Your friend is at the gym punching a punching bag. Someone stands between him and the bag. He sees the person, assumes he must be asleep so he won't react, and punches. Yes, your friend deserves to be punched back.

 

Are you trying to tell me that players in SWTOR think that enemy players who feign death are "sleeping" and are thus easy targets to kill, so they deliberately attack them with full knowledge it will flag them for PvP, believing they can win the fight?

 

That's not what's happening and you know it full well.

[Darth_Wicked]

Are you trying to tell me that players in SWTOR think that enemy players who feign death are "sleeping" and are thus easy targets to kill, so they deliberately attack them with full knowledge it will flag them for PvP, believing they can win the fight?

 

That's not what's happening and you know it full well.

 

I think you're onto something here.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[EllieAnne]

Agreed. 2 wrongs don't make a right. This is a griefing problem...but it's also one that we can avoid if we're careful...right?

 

How do you propose we "be careful" and loot the mob and not flag ourselves 100% of the time - especially if we're fighting one enemy and the "player" decided to feign death right on top of him?

 

Oh and why do I need to be careful? Why is it on ME to not be tricked on a PvE server by a supposed PvPer. Isn't this why some servers are PvE and some are PvP? You know PvE, where I need to consciously decide to be in PvP and not "flagging due to oopsies"

[EllieAnne]

So this one time, a friend of mine was at the gym, practicing with a punching bag. He was beating the **** out of that punching bag.

 

Then, this other guy suddenly and without warning steps in between the punching bag and my friend. My friend accidentally socks this guy. In response, the guy kicked my friend in the groin, tackled him, and viciously punched him until his eyes were bloody and his nose and two ribs were broken.

 

Then the guy laughed at him, and said "Be more careful when you practice with the punching bag. You were stupid enough to punch me, so I got permission to beat you senseless. I'm completely innocent, it's entirely your fault you punched me first. If you didn't want to bare-knuckle box me you shouldn't have punched me. "

 

He then went to the locker room and high five'd his friends that he was so cool for beating up that carebear.

 

Your friend should have been stacking alacrity.

[Jimvinny]

The underlying sentiment of requiring both players involved in a PvP confrontation to toggle their flags remains.

 

And I will never agree with this. A pve'er that needed to manually toggle their flag would never attack a flagged player on say, Oricon. As it stands now, a group of two or three pve geared players might attack a flagged player they come across because its a simple target a d attack, but if they all had to manually toggle, that is almost never going to happen. This change would effectively eliminate spontaneous PvP on pve servers. And I think that's a terrible idea.

[Aussircaex]

And I will never agree with this. A pve'er that needed to manually toggle their flag would never attack a flagged player on say, Oricon. As it stands now, a group of two or three pve geared players might attack a flagged player they come across because its a simple target a d attack, but if they all had to manually toggle, that is almost never going to happen. This change would effectively eliminate spontaneous PvP on pve servers. And I think that's a terrible idea.

 

I think you're wrong. On both counts.

[azudelphi]

I think you're wrong. On both counts.

 

Actually, his latter point is pretty spot on.

[Aussircaex]

Actually, his latter point is pretty spot on.

 

The latter point being "I think that's a terrible idea"?

 

I still think he's wrong.

[LordArtemis]

I think having the ability to toggle off PVP, so that you do not catch a flag unless you enter a PVP zone is a good idea. However, I do not think that having a requirement to "toggle on" to engage in PVP as the default setup is the smart way to go. I think that would discourage open world PVP a bit.

 

The toggle on would work for those players that choose to restrict PVP only to situations where they desire to participate, but would not be in place for other folks that simply want the freedom to target and attack, since the default would be what it is now.

 

Allowing a player to manually toggle off participation in PVP other than flagged territory would not effect PVP in any way IMO, other than to reduce dishonorable player actions in the game.

 

As long as it is optional it should not effect those players that wish to participate.

[Andryah]

How do you propose we "be careful" and loot the mob and not flag ourselves 100% of the time - especially if we're fighting one enemy and the "player" decided to feign death right on top of him?

 

First off... wth? http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=7814569&postcount=1

 

Anyway... to answer your question....

 

1) it is easy to observe the FD effect under way.

2) it is a short term effect, that expires quickly, so come back to loot the corpse later. It's not like you do not have other mobs to kill in the area.

3) make a game out of it.... let the douche follow around flopping on corpses pointlessly, trying in vain to trick you.... while you simply double back a few yards and loot the one he is not currently napping on. Trust me.. a few minutes of this.. and the douche will move on to "greener pastures"

 

OR

 

you could just curl up in a ball on the ground and play victim.

 

The choice is yours to make.

 

Personally, if/when I encounter this in game... I will simply call for some friends/guildmates to come join me in some roasting and serving up the offender until they give up and log out. And if friends are unavailable at the moment, I will simply avoid the offender and go about my business.

 

Oh and why do I need to be careful? Why is it on ME to not be tricked on a PvE server by a supposed PvPer. Isn't this why some servers are PvE and some are PvP? You know PvE, where I need to consciously decide to be in PvP and not "flagging due to oopsies"

 

Just like real life. Or... do you not drive defensively while out around town in your car? You know... to protect your personal safety and interests by avoiding hazardous drivers. Same exact principle inside an MMO, only trivial by comparison to be honest.

 

My point? ----> take responsibility for your own personal character safety while inside the game. Not just for some PvP pretender being a douche... but against all manner of hazards in the game (from falling off a bridge to your death, or over-running an enemy settlement and getting your backside handed to you, etc. etc. etc.)

Edited November 21, 2014 by Andryah

[Aussircaex]

Just like real life. Or... do you not drive defensively while out around town in your car? You know... to protect your personal safety and interests by avoiding hazardous drivers. Same exact principle inside an MMO, only trivial by comparison to be honest.

 

Are hazardous drivers intentionally putting themselves directly in front of me, slamming on their brakes, and swerving to make sure they remain in my path if I try to avoid them? Are they then attempting to blame me for not being careful enough, and that it is in fact my fault for causing an accident?

 

Insurance companies don't buy that and neither do I.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Aussircaex

[Andryah]

I think having the ability to toggle off PVP, so that you do not catch a flag unless you enter a PVP zone is a good idea. However, I do not think that having a requirement to "toggle on" to engage in PVP as the default setup is the smart way to go. I think that would discourage open world PVP a bit.

 

The toggle on would work for those players that choose to restrict PVP only to situations where they desire to participate, but would not be in place for other folks that simply want the freedom to target and attack, since the default would be what it is now.

 

Allowing a player to manually toggle off participation in PVP other than flagged territory would not effect PVP in any way IMO, other than to reduce dishonorable player actions in the game.

 

As long as it is optional it should not effect those players that wish to participate.

 

Once again... while I understand your good natured effort to find a cure to every possible hazard inside the game LA, it simply is not necessary. MMOs are designed to be hazardous to player characters, while still giving players control over their exposure to risk. There is simply no way to inoculate players from every possible carelessness on their part. The average adult is fully capable of preventing themselves from being victimized inside an MMO... IMO.

 

One of the things I really appreciate about SWTOR as an MMO is that it gives players a lot of control over their play and actions.. and that is a good thing. With that... comes responsibility on the part of the player to protect their own safety and self-interest inside the game.

 

If it was impossible to avoid the issue being complained about here, then I would agree with you.... but it simply is not the case here. And frankly, most players are simply using this as yet another excuse to demand a hard PvP switch... which by the way would be complained about by some of these same players when it negatively affects them in some other way. That is the nature of perpetual complaining about things that are already within your control to avoid.

 

TL;DR ... let's please not insist on making SWTOR into Hello Kitty Online.

 

And.. note to readers: NO... I am not condoning the behavior of those using FD to try to trick others. I am simply pointing out that the particular issue is completely avoidable if you do not want to play douche-tag in PvP.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Andryah

[Andryah]

Are hazardous drivers intentionally putting themselves directly in front of me, slamming on their brakes, and swerving to make sure they remain in my path if I try to avoid them? Are they then attempting to blame me for not being careful enough, and that it is in fact my fault for causing an accident?

 

Insurance companies don't buy that and neither do I.

 

Don't distort the point for convenience. Do you or do you not... drive defensively? If not.. then I think we found a root cause issue for you personally ---- ie: choosing to be careless.

 

Fault and intent on the part of others is not a factor in driving defensively in real life. It is simply the prudent thing to do in the interest of your own personal safety. Even though there are laws and prohibitions against drivers driving recklessly, texting while driving, etc. etc. etc.... some drivers still do so.. hence..... the effective need for defensive driving. Same principle in an MMO... though trivial by comparison to anything in real life.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Andryah

[Aussircaex]

Don't distort the point for convenience. Do you or do you not... drive defensively? If not.. then I think we found a root cause issue for you personally ---- ie: choosing to be careless.

 

It's not distorting the point at all. It takes two to tango. I can be as defensive as I want when I drive, but if another driver intentionally and deliberately creates a situation where they intend me to crash into them, it cannot be said that I am 100% responsible for a crash that might occur. Doing so is called victim blaming. There are always things one can do to mitigate the risk of injury or, in this case, accidental flagging for PvP, but the victim is not responsible for the crash in the first place. The law enforces this, insurance companies enforce this, but PvP mechanics in SWTOR do not "enforce" this; they do not distinguish between aggressive and intentional attacking and induced accidental attacks.

 

Besides, what several people have suggested in this thread would be new mechanics that would allow a player to "drive defensively" more proactively, by turning off the ability to "quick-flag" for PvP by attacking another attacked player. It's as if you demand we drive defensively but oppose Anti-lock Brake Sytems for cars.

[Philip_V]

I personally find the feign death trick hilarious. You guys need to calm down and relax haha. It's just a game. If someone flags you for PVP, and you get killed, just laugh it off and go back to playing the game. It's not like there's any penalty for dying in Open World PVP.

[Aussircaex]

I personally find the feign death trick hilarious. You guys need to calm down and relax haha. It's just a game. If someone flags you for PVP, and you get killed, just laugh it off and go back to playing the game. It's not like there's any penalty for dying in Open World PVP.

 

Because "Can't you take a joke?" is the line of every schoolyard and middle-management bully who has ever lived. If it's just a joke, why do they spend so much time taking pride in bragging to one another about it and insulting their victims?

[HammerOneOne]

Are hazardous drivers intentionally putting themselves directly in front of me, slamming on their brakes, and swerving to make sure they remain in my path if I try to avoid them? Are they then attempting to blame me for not being careful enough, and that it is in fact my fault for causing an accident?

 

Insurance companies don't buy that and neither do I.

 

Yes they are. It's called insurance fraud. It happens all the time.

Edited November 21, 2014 by HammerOneOne

[Aussircaex]

Yes they are. It's called insurance fraud. It happens all the time.

 

Exactly. It's considered fraud. As in, the "baiting" driver is considered at fault once discovered, not the victim.

[Foambreaker]

Because "Can't you take a joke?" is the line of every schoolyard and middle-management bully who has ever lived. If it's just a joke, why do they spend so much time taking pride in bragging to one another about it and insulting their victims?

 

Oh come on, the players name stays red/yellow, a person has to be clueless to miss it, it doesn't look at all like a real corpse.

 

People who randomly click and mash buttons in a panic die, that is the way it works.

 

 

/facepalm

[ivanhedgehog]

And I will never agree with this. A pve'er that needed to manually toggle their flag would never attack a flagged player on say, Oricon. As it stands now, a group of two or three pve geared players might attack a flagged player they come across because its a simple target a d attack, but if they all had to manually toggle, that is almost never going to happen. This change would effectively eliminate spontaneous PvP on pve servers. And I think that's a terrible idea.

 

if you want spontaneous open world pvp, play on a pvp server where it is active by design. if you arent willing to do that simple thing, why should any one care what you want?

[ivanhedgehog]

Once again... while I understand your good natured effort to find a cure to every possible hazard inside the game LA, it simply is not necessary. MMOs are designed to be hazardous to player characters, while still giving players control over their exposure to risk. There is simply no way to inoculate players from every possible carelessness on their part. The average adult is fully capable of preventing themselves from being victimized inside an MMO... IMO.

 

One of the things I really appreciate about SWTOR as an MMO is that it gives players a lot of control over their play and actions.. and that is a good thing. With that... comes responsibility on the part of the player to protect their own safety and self-interest inside the game.

 

If it was impossible to avoid the issue being complained about here, then I would agree with you.... but it simply is not the case here. And frankly, most players are simply using this as yet another excuse to demand a hard PvP switch... which by the way would be complained about by some of these same players when it negatively affects them in some other way. That is the nature of perpetual complaining about things that are already within your control to avoid.

 

TL;DR ... let's please not insist on making SWTOR into Hello Kitty Online.

 

And.. note to readers: NO... I am not condoning the behavior of those using FD to try to trick others. I am simply pointing out that the particular issue is completely avoidable if you do not want to play douche-tag in PvP.

 

If you want open world pvp....PLAY ON A PVP SERVER. it isnt that hard to figure out. or should the devs eliminate the need for pvp servers and just leave all servers like the present pve servers? Having a never flag for pvp toggle does not "dumb down" a server. it eliminates a cause of customer unhappiness which is a good idea for any business that can do that for little or no cost.