Content Nerfs in 3.0 and Beyond - Don't do it

[Torvai]

Dear community and Devs.

 

The playerbase can be divided in two big groups. We normally refer to them as casuals and hardcore players. Of course both can be further divided into a whole lot of subgroups, but that's not the point.

By my definition of them, casuals are players that just play for fun or to relax after a stressfull day at work/school/whatever. They don't want to think much about how they are playing, they just want to play.

Hardcore players like a challenge in the game, be it PvP or PvE at higher difficulties. They care about how they play, how the game works, what the best tactics are for any given ingame situation etc.

Both have the right to be here and enjoy the game how they like. Also note that the words "casual" and "hardcore" aren't meant to be either positive or negative in this post.

For both types of players there's plenty of content at the endgame. Namely normal wz's, tactical and storymode flashpoints and ops for casuals and ranked wz's, hardmode flashpoints and ops and of course nightmare ops for hardcore players.

That's where the problems begins. Casual players enter content that isn't designed for them and then start asking for nerfs, instead of improving their gameplay

The devs answer until now has been one content nerf after another. A few examples of this would be the droid boss in Lost Island, Darth Malgus(remember when you had to kick him into the abyss?), the droid boss in one of the czerka flashpoints, Chief Zokar in the very same fp and so on.

So while casuals then can have their fun playing content not intended for them, hardcore players get the short end of the stick, since they don't get the challenge they like anymore.

My reason for this posting is that I already see incoming qq when people reach lvl 60 shortly after 3.0 hits live and, for the first time in over a year, they aren't hopelessly overgeared for any content there is.

 

I know it's out of context, but the devs answer to whining about hardmode content being too hard shouldn't be a nerf, but rather something like this:

When purchasing items on the GTN, aside from the initial sorting and purchase we also have a secondary window pop-up as confirmation of sale. If you feel you are at risk of buying something off of the GTN at an intended value, take your time! Make sure to read over exactly what they are selling it for and then double check that number when you receive the pop-up. Also, we highly recommend using the sorting functions for both total and unit prices to make sure you are paying what you want.

 

-eric

Eric basically told us that the system is working as intended and that people should use their brains.

 

TL;DR: Don't nerf content. Tell the players that they should either stick to the content designed for them or to step up their gameplay in the future.

 

ps: I'm not a native english speaker, so bear with me

Edited November 12, 2014 by Torvai

[Halinalle]

My reason for this posting is that I already see incoming qq when people reach lvl 60 shortly after 3.0 hits live and, for the first time in over a year, they aren't hopelessly overgeared for any content there is.

 

I think it will be good for the game.

 

DPS needs to learn (again) how to play the role of damage dealer.

[Khantalas]

I agree with the content of the suggestion, though not necessarily the tone it is delivered in.

 

I consider myself a casual player when it comes to MMOs. I don't have a single level 55 character, I barely did anything past Corellia, I haven't done any hard mode flashpoints or ops content besides the occasional world boss (which you get missions for from the ops terminal so it totally counts). There is still a lot of content in Act 3 and beyond that I can't steamroll, and I haven't reverse engineered level capped artifact versions of every single thing I might possibly need, or bothered to reverse engineer lower level items for my alts. So far I have mostly enjoyed the story and tried to perfect the looks of my characters that have finished their class stories.

 

That said, I enjoy maximizing my character's potential within reasonable limits so I don't fail despite my personal skill, and if I do fail, I either learn from my mistakes, or don't attempt again until my character is substantially better.

 

What really turns me off from trying more involved content, however, is the immediate hostile or exclusive stance of the so-called "hardcore" players who require an exact set of stats and have calculated their ability rotation down to every single global cooldown, from fight start to finish (I'm not arguing that there aren't optimal and suboptimal builds when it come to certain content, because I don't enjoy being wrong). I enjoy trial and error in games, as well as being guided without feeling like a puppet acting on another's orders. If there are mechanics more complicated than threat levels, timely interrupts/cleanses and staying away from glowy spots in a fight, I expect that first time players can make mistakes, and only the most egregious and/or repeated ones should be punished with immediate removal.

 

((The only exception is ranked matches, which are less of a game/puzzle and more of a sport, and anyone who fails to compete should be required to get better, and anyone who refuses to compete properly, such as people who only queue for conquest awards or to drive up the opposed team's ratings should be punished accordingly.))

 

Essentially, I agree that Bioware trying to make high level group content by making them easier / simpler is not a good solution, but the ideal solution for making such content more inclusive is more tolerance and effort from both sides of the player base, which doesn't seem to be forthcoming anytime soon.

[AdrianDmitruk]

...Essentially, I agree that Bioware trying to make high level group content by making them easier / simpler is not a good solution, but the ideal solution for making such content more inclusive is more tolerance and effort from both sides of the player base, which doesn't seem to be forthcoming anytime soon.

 

Eh. Speaking as someone who straddles the line between casual and hardcore, it's not so much watching others make mistakes that turns me into an elitist ******e, it's watching others making the same mistakes over and over and obviously not caring enough to learn that turns me into an elitist ******e.

 

I come home to play this game and relax after work and such--in that respect I'm a casual. I actually found myself effectively locked out of group PVE content because my guild lost too many members post 1.2 to regularly sustain PVE activities like raiding--so I fell behind on learning mechanics for the new fights, with no one to run the ops with. The remainder of my guild took up PVP as it could be done with fewer guildies online at a time, and then it became a matter of "don't PVE because you only have PVP gear and you will have to be carried" and whatnot for me. I only learned the ops (in storymode, though I probably would be perfectly capable of hardmode and possibly NiM if I found a stable raid group) in about the last six months by making a new toon and starting over on the opposite faction from what I normally play--and I found myself making a DPS to learn that even though I main healer toons, simply because healer=more blame for wipes (and I still won't tank an operation for exactly that same reason).

 

Unlike hardcore players, I also HATE making spreadsheets for theorycrafting games. I, too, learn my rotation through trial and error, though I might take the time to read a guide if I'm bored. When I made a spreadsheet to track my crafting mats on hand for conquest, it was a Big *********** Deal because it was literally the first spreadsheet I've ever made to track anything in a game. Ever.

 

That said, when I do get home and want to chill, and queue up for something to have a little fun after work, and then get one of those 17k hp "tanks" to try to heal in my groupfinder daily courtesy of 12x XP, or DPS that is so undergeared they cannot meet the enrage timer because of same, do you think I find that fun? No, it's frustrating. I don't leave the first wipe, but if I see errors I'll point it out (a common and not-obvious-to-newbies example would be too much AOE during the last boss fight in Mandalorian Raiders means the boss pulls more turrets than can be tanked/healed through as boss takes too much AOE damage). I feel I do have a reasonable expectation for people to get mechanics down by the third pull in a flashpoint, though I might be willing to go up to five attempts for an op before giving up and leaving group.

 

I'm willing to teach to some extent, as I've been on the outside looking in at least as far as PVE is concerned, but the "casuals" also need to be willing to learn if they want to run group content. I feel it's perfectly reasonable to expect at least a minimal level of competence that is sufficient to clear the content, even if it is not done flawlessly.

 

And I certainly don't want the content dumbed down so much that it encourages stupidity and the further unwillingness to learn (KDY, I'm looking at you...)

[JumperPenn]

Both have the right to be here and enjoy the game how they like. Also note that the words "casual" and "hardcore" aren't meant to be either positive or negative in this post.

For both types of players there's plenty of content at the endgame. Namely normal wz's, tactical and storymode flashpoints and ops for casuals and ranked wz's, hardmode flashpoints and ops and of course nightmare ops for hardcore players.

That's where the problems begins. Casual players enter content that isn't designed for them and then start qq'ing that It's too hard.

 

The tone you started with, that is the way you began your post seeming to try and address your concerns without going to a dark negative place just went out the window claiming that people are "qq'ing". You then go on to tell the people who are doing it wrong to toughen up and they are whining, etc.

 

You may have a point to make but your tone is all wrong which works against you.

 

You're also wrong that there exists content for both casual and hardcore players at endgame because for some players the story is an important part of the game and when that was essentially abandoned there was little left for them except perhaps to roll an alt starting the story on another class which isn't endgame content.

[hadoken]

Strawmen sure are popular around here. I mean it's like people don't even read what the devs are actually saying about the expac. Here's a hint: they're nerfing player power to continue making old content hard even at the new level cap.

[Torvai]

The tone you started with, that is the way you began your post seeming to try and address your concerns without going to a dark negative place just went out the window claiming that people are "qq'ing". You then go on to tell the people who are doing it wrong to toughen up and they are whining, etc.

I see and you're right on this, but it really wasn't meant as an insult to anyone. Merely a statement. And although it might be harsh, it's the truth.

But I'll see if I can edit it to sound more neutral

You're also wrong that there exists content for both casual and hardcore players at endgame because for some players the story is an important part of the game and when that was essentially abandoned there was little left for them except perhaps to roll an alt starting the story on another class which isn't endgame content.

For every fp and op that exists, there's more or less story quests and cutscenes, so I don't agree with you on that one.

Granted, for the old 50 ops it's only one dialogue before and after the op, but it's there.

 

That said, I enjoy maximizing my character's potential within reasonable limits so I don't fail despite my personal skill, and if I do fail, I either learn from my mistakes, or don't attempt again until my character is substantially better.

See, that's basically the point I'm trying to make. Players should do either this, if they fail at any given content, or if they don't want to put in the effort, which is totally fine, simply stay away from it and stick to content that's designed for them, instead of asking the devs for nerfs.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Torvai

[Torvai]

Strawmen sure are popular around here. I mean it's like people don't even read what the devs are actually saying about the expac. Here's a hint: they're nerfing player power to continue making old content hard even at the new level cap.

I know this and it only adds to the problem. Players, depending on how big this nerf will be, maybe won't be able to faceroll content anymore and instead of looking into how they can improve their gameplay, they'll ask for content nerfs.

At least in the german forum, the players who cry loudest about the dps nerf are the ones I referred to as casuals in my OP. They are the least affected by it since they only do SM ops and fp's.

[hadoken]

I know this and it only adds to the problem. Players, depending on how big this nerf will be, maybe won't be able to faceroll content anymore and instead of looking into how they can improve their gameplay, they'll ask for content nerfs.

At least in the german forum, the players who cry loudest about the dps nerf are the ones I referred to as casuals in my OP. They are the least affected by it since they only do SM ops and fp's.

 

So you don't want them to nerf content, they aren't nerfing content, and you're saying that adds to the problem.

 

What?

[undiess]

Bioware stated they are adjusting all content for a reason: the damage characters do now is being adjusted lower. This is a common strategy to balance the world when taking a giant bat swing to all dps characters do. It's all relatable to the lower dps characters will do in 3.0.

 

So what the OP asks for is that Bioware to make the game harder by only nerfing dps and not nerfing the content. That goes against any common sense balancing and only tips to "hardcore" players. The OP is either incredibly short sighted or lacked full understanding of why the content nerfs were being done when starting this thread.

Edited November 12, 2014 by undiess

[Halinalle]

Strawmen sure are popular around here. I mean it's like people don't even read what the devs are actually saying about the expac. Here's a hint: they're nerfing player power to continue making old content hard even at the new level cap.

 

I have to agree. And your post is good example of this.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Halinalle

[MaximusRex]

There is no issue, and the vast majority of HM and Nighmare content has never been nerfed.

 

They are re-balancing player power and will adjust some content around that, which is appropriate.

[Gomla]

One day I will read a forum and people will know the difference between casual players and bad players.

 

You know a lot of the casual players were your "old school" hardcore players that now have jobs and families?

 

They are still better players than most of you claiming you are good.

 

Casual does not equal bad players.

[PseudoCool]

First off.. I'm a casual player.. I don't do PvP, even tho I'm on a PvP server (my former guild moved there, and I followed.. now their all gone, and I'm still there)

 

My point in this is simple however: I have found soooooo many times where I'm told I'm not geared properly for a flashpoint, even in NORMAL MODE. Now, mind you, my gear doesn't LOOK specific, but I rip the mods out of the higher level gear to keep the look I want. Now the problem comes in where you have to run those flashpoints and ops to get the better gear, but you can't get a team until you have the gear. And GTN is pretty much useless in this regard, most of the higher level gear is hoarded from what I've seen, or so ungodly overpriced that it's rediculous. And if you *DO* buckle down and spend the money, then everyone expects you to know the op or flashpoint from start to finish.. and lo' and behold, doom on you, etc etc.. if you don't.

 

And this is not just a SWTOR problem unfortunately. I've yet to be in a game in the last 20 or so years where that hasn't been the community mentality. And that's where it needs to change. The game doesn't need a revamp.. groupings don't need to be nerfed.. but the COMMUNITY.. needs to step up and be a community. And not just to each others guild members.. but to anyone.

 

Here's an example:

 

Player A: Hey.. I noticed that your gear isn't that high, have you done this normal mode before?

Player B: No.. I haven't.. can I tag along and learn it?

Player A: Sure man.. welcome to the party.. we're on vent/ts/etc.. wanna join us so we can walk you through it?

Player B: Sure.. thanks!

 

This is just a very basic example obviously.. but it it happened to me JUST ONCE in SWTOR, I'd probably have a stoke and die. It's NEVER happened.. doesn't matter the server or time I'm online. And that.. ladies and gents.. is NOT what MMO gaming is supposed to be about.

 

Just my 2 cents...

[DawnAskham]

The only time I see this as a problem is when 'hard' designated content is brand new, clearly doable by competent players, yet nerfed to accommodate non-competent players.

 

Otherwise, over time, gear, level progression, and even content nerfs are part of life in a game like SWTOR.

 

And the basic flaw in your premise is that there are only two types of players - casuals who want everything nerfed so nothing poses a challenge, and hardcores who want everything to be a challenge forever.

 

Unfortunately, neither description applies to myself, and if I had to guess, many others as well.

 

Oh and IMO on the fights you mentioned....

 

Did the droid boss and the rest of LI really need the nerfs way back when?

 

Hard to say, but at the time I felt it was either remove LI from GF (getting random pugs in LI was painful) or nerf the content as the real problem with LI was its difficulty level was not in line with the rest of the 50 HM content.

 

Had they added more hard content in-line with LI's difficulty level and called it NiM or some other designation and kept it out of GF, it may have survived as designed without nerfs.

 

Did Malgus need to be nerfed?

 

Even more difficult to say as it seemed as gear scaled, he was already getting to the point where players could burn him down.

 

And if I had to guess (without going back and looking at every patch note where he was changed), I'd imagine the changes were made to keep the fight from bugging out because of all the heavy scripting involved, not to make it easier for players

 

Did the droid boss in Czerka need an HP nerf?

 

Not really. However that fight was (and still is) just annoying and overly long - no real challenges except to not die of boredom constantly running in and out out of the aoe, especially when in a melee heavy group (or getting yanked over and over as ranged).

 

IMO it is just a poorly designed fight that only provides the illusion of challenge (unlike say LI) with a high HP boss that take forever to whittle down because the mechanics keep players running around instead of hitting the boss.

Edited November 12, 2014 by DawnAskham

[Foambreaker]

...That's where the problems begins. Casual players enter content that isn't designed for them and then start asking for nerfs, instead of improving their gameplay...

 

You mean content "they" paid for?

 

Who is "they"?

 

Maybe you would like to qualify your stereotype further with a skin color, culture or religion reference?

[ivanhedgehog]

Dear community and Devs.

 

The playerbase can be divided in two big groups. We normally refer to them as casuals and hardcore players. Of course both can be further divided into a whole lot of subgroups, but that's not the point.

snip

ps: I'm not a native english speaker, so bear with me

 

hardores dont pay enough to support a game like this...ask the laid off wildstar devs about this...

[TUXs]

That's where the problems begins. Casual players enter content that isn't designed for them and then start asking for nerfs, instead of improving their gameplay

LULZ!

 

Yeah, I mean, if the players suck so bad, then Bioware probably doesn't even want em playing right? I mean, who wants anything but the best of the bestest playing their game?! This is a HARDCORE gamers game!!! All them sucky players should go play something that sucky players play right?! Only the HARDEST of the HARDCORE are welcome here...and even they might suck! Those blasted "casuals"...always ruining it for all us epic HARDCORE players!!! :mad:

[hadoken]

I have to agree. And your post is good example of this.

 

Have they said otherwise lately? I'll admit I'm going by what they initially said about player power at 60.

[jakefiresky]

I didnt read the multiple walls of text replies, so this may have been mentioned. Malgus was not nerfed per se, his victory conditions were changed for lore reasons and to confirm death. The devs stated they wanted the player base to know he was not coming back.

[Torvai]

Okay, I have to admit that casual and hardcore were badly chosen words. So just call them good and bad players, or whatever.

What i was really talking about is this:

The only time I see this as a problem is when 'hard' designated content is brand new, clearly doable by competent players, yet nerfed to accommodate non-competent players.

And imho this shouldn't be done, because of gear and level progression the content gets nerfed over time anyway.

And the basic flaw in your premise is that there are only two types of players - casuals who want everything nerfed so nothing poses a challenge, and hardcores who want everything to be a challenge forever.

 

Unfortunately, neither description applies to myself, and if I had to guess, many others as well.

As stated above it was a mistake to use these words. And of course it was an oversimplification. But I also wrote that these groups can be divided in as many subgroups as there are players.(not the exact wording, I know )

 

Did the droid boss and the rest of LI really need the nerfs way back when?

 

Hard to say, but at the time I felt it was either remove LI from GF (getting random pugs in LI was painful) or nerf the content as the real problem with LI was its difficulty level was not in line with the rest of the 50 HM content.

 

Had they added more hard content in-line with LI's difficulty level and called it NiM or some other designation and kept it out of GF, it may have survived as designed without nerfs.

If you ask me, it didn't need the nerf, it was a nice challenge back then with appropriate gear. And there was a reason it had it's own tier of difficulty in GF.

And people are basicylly asking for NiM FP's since release, but then we would have the same problem again. Bads with lvl 35 greens, that can't walk their toons straight, would queue for it, wouldn't be able to beat it and then ask for nerfs. Bio would listen to them, since they don't want to loose customers.

Did Malgus need to be nerfed?

 

Even more difficult to say as it seemed as gear scaled, he was already getting to the point where players could burn him down.

 

And if I had to guess (without going back and looking at every patch note where he was changed), I'd imagine the changes were made to keep the fight from bugging out because of all the heavy scripting involved, not to make it easier for players

Again, imo no nerf was needed. And I, personally, never saw any serious bugs in this encounter, nor did I hear about any, but correct me if im wrong.

Did the droid boss in Czerka need an HP nerf?

 

Not really. However that fight was (and still is) just annoying and overly long - no real challenges except to not die of boredom constantly running in and out out of the aoe, especially when in a melee heavy group (or getting yanked over and over as ranged).

 

IMO it is just a poorly designed fight that only provides the illusion of challenge (unlike say LI) with a high HP boss that take forever to whittle down because the mechanics keep players running around instead of hitting the boss.

I must say I agree with you here. But do you remember when they fixed the adds in this fight? And how people instantly started complaining how it's broken and that the adds are supposed to not do anything? At least in the german forums they did.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Torvai

[Torvai]

You mean content "they" paid for?

They also paid for NiM operations, but the majority of the players never even saw any NiM boss. Well except for Nefra maybe, but that doesn't really count;)

In the same way I paid for tacticals but never really do them because they are boring as hell. Only did them once on both sides for story. So now what?

Edited November 12, 2014 by Torvai

[Torvai]

I didnt read the multiple walls of text replies, so this may have been mentioned. Malgus was not nerfed per se, his victory conditions were changed for lore reasons and to confirm death. The devs stated they wanted the player base to know he was not coming back.

Thanks for the info, didn't know this. And no, it hasn't been mentioned before

[Gleneagle]

LULZ!

 

Yeah, I mean, if the players suck so bad, then Bioware probably doesn't even want em playing right? I mean, who wants anything but the best of the bestest playing their game?! This is a HARDCORE gamers game!!! All them sucky players should go play something that sucky players play right?! Only the HARDEST of the HARDCORE are welcome here...and even they might suck! Those blasted "casuals"...always ruining it for all us epic HARDCORE players!!! :mad:

</wave>This is not the sarcasm they are looking for...

[Arkerus]

Wow. What a pointless post based on an update regarding the GTN.

 

The devs already have 3 distinct modes in this game (for OPs) as well as FPs that cater to many different tastes. They aren't nerfing the hardest content at all.

 

What was the point of all this?