So with 3.0 we're paying to get nerfed, basically.

[tdmaha]

Hmm...I've played: The Realm (doesn't apply), EQ, DAOC, RIFT, WoW, SWTOR and a couple of others. In none of those did I log in, attempt to do content I had already cleared and find myself weaker.

 

Was I weaker because I was getting new (and improved gear) - yes. Was I weaker because the new MOBs hit a bit harder etc? Yes.

 

But I wasn't weaker simply by virtue of paying $20.00.

 

I certainly hope the Devs aren't planning on keeping DF / DP as "end game" Raids. I can see at 60 where those two become EC NiM / EV NiM equivalent, in that you run them for achievements. But not to remain in the position where they are now.

 

$20 has nothing to do with it. The stat squish applies if you pay for the expansion or not.

[Lotharofxev]

$20 has nothing to do with it. The stat squish applies if you pay for the expansion or not.

 

Added bonus!

[Transcendent]

And herein lies my problem: the ONLY people who's DPS will get back to the same level are NiM Progression raiders.

 

 

Meanwhile I'm going to stuck with my sub-Nightmare gear, trying to do Dailes that now "magically" hit harder (slower interrupts) and take longer to kill (lower DPS) because I'm never going to get 198 min/max gear. I'm clearly not who the Dev's want to nerf, but I'm getting my DPS lowered anyway "just cause it's better design".

 

 

The only things to be "compensated so they don't become too hard" are the 1-50 leveling, and possibly DF/DP. They've never said anything else will change, Oricon's Commander Daily won't suddenly all have half hp and not spam abilities constantly... but we'll do less DPS and have a longer cd interrupt.

 

Heck speaking of NiM EC unless they go back and adjust ALL Ops, which they HAVEN'T said they'll do, the first stage interrupt spam will be impossible.

 

 

Literally everyone's DPS is going down, essentially, to tune down NiM groups who were "sleepwalking too fast". Which they're going to do anyway.

 

 

 

I really shouldn't walk into 3.0, get to level 60, and have a harder time doing Dailes than I am right now. I shouldn't have a harder time fighting literally everything 50-55 out there. Which is going to happen unless the dev's actually make a point to address it...

 

 

TLDR: It's going to feel really crummy to pay for an expansion, get it, get to level 60 and have MORE difficulty with OLDER content because of DPS being cut.

 

This sums up my thoughts on the changes to the DPS as well. I simply do not see BioWare taking the time to go through all the older content to ensure that players that are not NiM progression raiders are not essentially nerfed into the "well this completely sucks" category.

 

Before more players come in here and say it's just QQ'ing, no it really isn't. It's a concern that a small % of the player base (NiM progression raiders) have essentially forced the developers to look at things and make the content harder for everyone by lowering our DPS.

 

Seriously? I'd prefer the developers to think outside the box and actually add more interesting mechanics to the fights instead of nerfing me, that's by far a better way to approach the problem. Instead BioWare are simply copy pasting other MMO solutions into the game. You don't have to lower DPS to make the game harder for NiM progression raiders, and you don't have to lower DPS for the casual players and make them feel underpowered when you could add more interesting mechanics to the fights (not just stun spam like Oricon).

 

TLDR: Add better mechanics instead of copying other MMO developers.

[Halinalle]

Seriously? I'd prefer the developers to think outside the box and actually add more interesting mechanics to the fights instead of nerfing me, that's by far a better way to approach the problem. Instead BioWare are simply copy pasting other MMO solutions into the game. You don't have to lower DPS to make the game harder for NiM progression raiders, and you don't have to lower DPS for the casual players and make them feel underpowered when you could add more interesting mechanics to the fights (not just stun spam like Oricon).

 

TLDR: Add better mechanics instead of copying other MMO developers.

 

Mechanics? Do you mean those that people ignore anyway in 50HM/55HM?

 

If even healers can dps enough to kill adds then it only teaches bad habits.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Halinalle

[Levram]

Seriously? I'd prefer the developers to think outside the box and actually add more interesting mechanics to the fights instead of nerfing me, that's by far a better way to approach the problem... You don't have to lower DPS to make the game harder for NiM progression raiders, and you don't have to lower DPS for the casual players and make them feel underpowered when you could add more interesting mechanics to the fights (not just stun spam like Oricon).

 

I think the Developers have done quite a good job of consistently making each Operation, especially at the nightmare level, mechanically more complex than previous Operations.

 

You can see that by just the number of nightmare one-shot mechanics alone, ignoring anything else.

• EV - 1
  
• KP - 1
  
• EC - 4
  
• TFB - 7
  
• S&V - 3
  
• DF - 10
  
• DP - 15

 

The above list is precisely why EV and KP are the only nightmare Operations that are farmed by average Fleet PUGs. The moment that a one-shot mechanic more complex than a "falling death" is introduced, the Operation becomes too difficult for an average Fleet PUG because one-shot mechanics can never be overgeared.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Levram

[LordArtemis]

I was weaker when I logged in in WoW three times directly after, or shortly after an expansion. Warlocks were constantly getting changed and nerfed, one of the reasons I left the game. Wrath of the Lich King was one of the worst set of nerfs for Warlocks in the game's history.

 

Getting nerfed for an expansion is actually pretty common. That doesn't mean it is right, nor does it mean it is a good thing...simply a common occurance.

[LordArtemis]

You played Warlock too huh.

 

Yea, my favorite class. It was only the constant changes that caused me to walk from the game. Warlock was changed in a major way 3 times in 45 days once...and that was the last straw for me.

 

They never could figure out what they wanted to do with soul shards. I don't even know if the class still uses them. At any rate, I got tired of having to relearn my class every few weeks.

[Max_Killjoy]

Yea, my favorite class. It was only the constant changes that caused me to walk from the game. Warlock was changed in a major way 3 times in 45 days once...and that was the last straw for me.

 

They never could figure out what they wanted to do with soul shards. I don't even know if the class still uses them. At any rate, I got tired of having to relearn my class every few weeks.

 

You too, huh?

[Jeweledleah]

Yea, my favorite class. It was only the constant changes that caused me to walk from the game. Warlock was changed in a major way 3 times in 45 days once...and that was the last straw for me.

 

They never could figure out what they wanted to do with soul shards. I don't even know if the class still uses them. At any rate, I got tired of having to relearn my class every few weeks.

 

nope. no more soul shards. I still remember farming them up before the raid and having to manage them so that you don't run out at the last moment. this last patch.. I went "gasp" destro. they took away half my dots in affliction and changed it in a way that made it feel slower than dpsing as a healer :/ not that destro is in that great of a shape either in terms of fun and diversity of abilities.

 

they basically converted soul shards into a similar system to rogues combo points.

 

funny story. affliction warlock and warrior were two fave classes of my SO and their incessant changes were part of the reason he stopped playing as well. I still go back every once in a while when I start missing my characters, but... yeah..

 

that said. biggest problem with WoW for me at least wasn't even nerfs (though I swear blizzard still cannot balance difficulty worth a damn) it was changing how the class plays at a core. which is why disciplines worry me a lot more than overall stat squish

Edited November 5, 2014 by Jeweledleah

[LordArtemis]

nope. no more soul shards. I still remember farming them up before the raid and having to manage them so that you don't run out at the last moment. this last patch.. I went "gasp" destro. they took away half my dots in affliction and changed it in a way that made it feel slower than dpsing as a healer :/ not that destro is in that great of a shape either in terms of fun and diversity of abilities.

 

they basically converted soul shards into a similar system to rogues combo points.

 

funny story. affliction warlock and warrior were two fave classes of my SO and their incessant changes were part of the reason he stopped playing as well. I still go back every once in a while when I start missing my characters, but... yeah..

 

that said. biggest problem with WoW for me at least wasn't even nerfs (though I swear blizzard still cannot balance difficulty worth a damn) it was changing how the class plays at a core. which is why disciplines worry me a lot more than overall stat squish

 

Well, I think this change, and this is just my view based on what we have seen, will not change the core mechanics of the class...in other words, I will have to make some adjustments perhaps to my rotations, but not have to relearn the class entirely...at least the sorc. After messing around with the ability calculator that duffy had posted, my rotation looked pretty close to the same it is now.

 

I can't speak for other classes, but at least sorc doesnt seem to feel, at this point, like a core change.

[DataBeaver]

Okay, so given that:

- My mostly 180 geared ops group is struggling with DF HM, with probably close to 100 unsuccessful attempts at Corruptor Zero

- Increased cleanse cooldowns will make Nefra a lot harder

- Increased interrupt cooldowns will make Draxus a lot harder

- There will be no adjustments to the fights to account for the increased cooldowns

- Reduced damage will make beating enrage timers a lot harder (Draxus is a pretty close call for us)

 

I guess we can just forget about even attempting that for a few months while we gear up? I'm not sure if I should be disappointed at still being stuck with SM ops, or satisfied that the achievements will still be meaningful if we ever manage to beat the hardmodes.

[invertioN]

^ no people just need to l2p. Both healers in my group don't cleanse the dots on Nefra NiM anymore (apart from the ones on the tanks) and can solo heal it easily. If you need more than 1 interrupt per person on Draxus the dps are retarded (simply put). If you enrage on any hm boss then the dps are pulling the numbers of a lvl 20 in greens.

For Corruptor you can just stack on boss, but I guess that's difficult to figure out.

such arguments are just ridiculous, these encounters are not hard.

Edited November 5, 2014 by invertioN

[Nokodoko]

Is toning down damage to prevent massive stat and damage inflation over the course of an expansion pack really a bad thing? I know people enjoy seeing large numbers and higher top end DPS, but the reality is this is a smart move to prevent massive inflation in terms of DMG and stats in the long run. I for one am shocked Bioware is thinking ahead.

[Gleneagle]

The mindset that replies "L2P" when many players report something is too hard is a mindset that loses subscriptions for a game.

 

Every customer counts. Many players are not interested in paying for more frustration and stress in their lives.

[hadoken]

The mindset that replies "L2P" when many players report something is too hard is a mindset that loses subscriptions for a game.

 

Every customer counts. Many players are not interested in paying for more frustration and stress in their lives.

 

It's actually 'most' if market trends are any indication. WildStar is the most recent example of this, while WOW continues to gain more subs prior to the expansion with everyone going in knowing the game keeps getting easier every single time.

[GatorAndy]

have to see this to believe it. this is bw who always take the lazy way out. did they go in and nerf EVERY mob in the game??? not a chance. did they reduce the mobs with high power attacks that you srvive against based on getting them killed quickly? probably not. if the reason they did this was high end dps was a little too high, they could have placed a cap, rather that rebuilding the entire games worth of mobs. this has to have been in the works for months for them to be able to down grade all mobs in the game.

 

So, let me get this straight...

 

They announce they are reducing dps, and it's the end of the world, before even playing 3.0 and seeing how it actually affects you.

 

They announce (in the exact same video, minutes apart, mind you) that the leveling experience is going to be faster, because mobs will die faster, and you have to "wait and see".

 

Interesting.

[GatorAndy]

Okay, so given that:

- My mostly 180 geared ops group is struggling with DF HM, with probably close to 100 unsuccessful attempts at Corruptor Zero

- Increased cleanse cooldowns will make Nefra a lot harder

- Increased interrupt cooldowns will make Draxus a lot harder

- There will be no adjustments to the fights to account for the increased cooldowns

- Reduced damage will make beating enrage timers a lot harder (Draxus is a pretty close call for us)

 

I guess we can just forget about even attempting that for a few months while we gear up? I'm not sure if I should be disappointed at still being stuck with SM ops, or satisfied that the achievements will still be meaningful if we ever manage to beat the hardmodes.

 

With regard to the increased CD on cleanses, they also said if it increases the difficulty of content (aka Ops), they will change the content.

 

Also, if your group is, in fact, in full 180 gear, and can't get passed HM Draxus, I hate to tell you, but it's not a gear issue.

It's possible 3.0 dps reduction may set you back a bit, but that's not really your main issue. It's definitely one of the harder fights in the game, and takes A LOT of group organization; everyone has to do their part, but it should still be very doable with full 180 gear.

[alex_cpa]

I've thought quite a bit about this lately. Watched the Dev livestream concerning this topic several times and re-watched the part talking about this particular topic probably 10 times. Also, read the transcript one poster put up of that conversation. I've gone back and forth on this topic, can see both sides of the arguments. One thing BW could do to help with the speculation is release more information. In any case, I do think top end DPS will ultimately go UP when NiM content is eventually released for the 2 new ops.

 

Current Best Gear at level 55 = 186 (drops ONLY in level 55 NiM DF / DP)

 

Below is some conjecture on my part (in otherwords my gear ratings could be off)

New 3.0 gear at level 60

Basic gear = 186 (probably get green 182 or blue 184 equivalent by leveling from 55 to 60)

SM ops gear drops = 192 (presumably also have non-set bonus purchased with elite comms)

HM ops gear drops = 198 (presumably also have non-set bonus purchased with ultimate comms)

NiM ops gear drops = 204 (presumably ONLY available with NiM Ops drops)

 

Next Op content released (sometime after 3.0, say 3.5 or so)

SM ops gear drops = 192 (would keep SM at level 60 the same as 3.0 initial ops)

HM ops gear drops = 210 (at this time what basic, elite, and ultimate comms purchase will also go up)

NiM ops gear drops = 216 (presumably ONLY available with NiM Ops drops)

 

From the Dev stream, it appears that DPS in 198 at 3.0 will be similar to 186 at 2.10. I remember doing old ops in HM, i.e. TFB and S&V to get HM ops gear. This was before the "power creep" increases due to buffs in DPS, and before DF / DP were even released. So here's my point. We will get back to level 55 NiM gear ratings with HM 60 gear ratings. It "should" be easier to get level 60 HM loot than level 55 NiM loot, even with the 3.0 dps drop. Also, if BW releases new content on a shorter schedule (which they alluded to in a Dev stream, can't remember which one now at this point where they regretted having so much time between DF / DP and new ops), we will be over geared for old 55 content within 9 months. And for all the folks that don't do op content, the op content release and gear tiers associated with them govern the gear given by flash points and comms, etc.

 

For players NOT doing NiM op content but running dailies, fps, conquest, etc.

It is likely that enough basic comms will be available within a fairly quick time frame to allow you to gear up to 186 gear, i.e a week or so (this presumes a ultimate/elite/planetary comm conversion rate that is not extremely punitive. At 55, you've never had this gear level before and for some, you will be jumping from a mix of 168/180 gear to full 186 (or almost full 186 - don't know about mainhand yet). This jump will likely make the 55 dailies and fp's noticeably easier for you, even with the dps drop. While new level 60 dailies and non-op content will likely be about the same as current 55 content in 168 gear.

 

For ops players. Will it feel like you've gone backwards at first, yes (slightly), more though for players with 186 NiM gear. But the next set of ops released will rectify that.

[Savej]

I was weaker when I logged in in WoW three times directly after, or shortly after an expansion. Warlocks were constantly getting changed and nerfed, one of the reasons I left the game. Wrath of the Lich King was one of the worst set of nerfs for Warlocks in the game's history.

 

Getting nerfed for an expansion is actually pretty common. That doesn't mean it is right, nor does it mean it is a good thing...simply a common occurance.

 

specific classes is one thing - that happens in every game plenty. All classes being nerfed in an expansion has never happened in my experience. Wow's latest squish was not a nerf, btw (for those comparing). This is not a squish, it is a nerf.

[hadoken]

specific classes is one thing - that happens in every game plenty. All classes being nerfed in an expansion has never happened in my experience. Wow's latest squish was not a nerf, btw (for those comparing). This is not a squish, it is a nerf.

 

I wonder if this isn't more of an effort to make current endgame stuff still relevant in the expansion, as some kind of weird attempt to extend the life of it. I mean, that's the other result of this at least in how they're describing it to work.

 

I'm not sure if that's brilliant or lazy, though.

[Foambreaker]

This is why they should not tell the player base about changes that require math skills beyond addition and subtraction.

 

Ratios

[Savej]

This is why they should not tell the player base about changes that require math skills beyond addition and subtraction.

 

Ratios

 

for most level 55-60 content, including most endgame content, the time-to-kill is going up according to what they said. They've had all week to clear this up if they mis-spoke or threads like this are unfounded.

[Bluejayoo]

Have any of you guys (guys used in the gender neutral sense) thought, 'Hey, maybe I should take the righteous anger I am venting over changes to a game and apply them to something with more social significance?"

 

Suggestions for things to be mad about:

 

1. Loss of privacy from being tracking by corporations

2. Gender pay gap

3. Death of Net Neutrality

4. Polluted Rivers

5. State of the American Education system

6. Tax loop holes for large corporations

7. Taylor Swift

8. Overuse of antibiotics in agriculture leading to resistant super strains

9. Taylor Swift

10. Corporate Lobbyist distorting the American political system and representative government

11. Increasing income inequality

12. Rising healthcare costs...

 

You're welcome

[hadoken]

Have any of you guys (guys used in the gender neutral sense) thought, 'Hey, maybe I should take the righteous anger I am venting over changes to a game and apply them to something with more social significance?"

 

Not once.

[Bluejayoo]

Not once.

 

Well, I just thought I would ask...