Damage Dropping In 3.0

[BuriDogshin]

Just as other posters have been telling you, there is a full transcript of the Developers discussing the adjustment to DPS. It is word-for-word accurate, I should know, I wrote it myself.

I expect someone will challenge you to prove the transcript is word-for-word accurate. All reasonable people will understand that you cannot prove that to be true -- just as a scientific theory cannot be proved true, but instead can, by definition, only be proven false.

 

So, let's just try to preempt an avalanche of potential illogic and stupidity: the burden is on the skeptics to prove that your transcript is not word-for-word accurate. And that's easy for them to do: they just have to find one word in the transcript that isn't what the devs said in the stream.

 

Go to it, skeptics. And please remember to provide a timestamp on any alleged error if you want it to be taken seriously.

 

P.S. Thank you so much for that transcription, Levram. I am sure many people appreciate it!

Edited November 7, 2014 by BuriDogshin

[mokkh]

I've been playing mmos entirely too long to give a crap about a damage nerf. I'll play the game as solidly as I did before and contribute to any group I'm in as someone who actually cares about group cohesion like I always have.

 

All the hand wringing in the world isn't going to change what's already on its way towards us. It's time to start figuring out the workaround.

[Halinalle]

So, let's just try to preempt an avalanche of potential illogic and stupidity: the burden is on the skeptics to prove that your transcript is not word-for-word accurate. And that's easy for them to do: they just have to find one word in the transcript that isn't what the devs said in the stream.

 

I see what you did there.

 

I've been playing mmos entirely too long to give a crap about a damage nerf. I'll play the game as solidly as I did before and contribute to any group I'm in as someone who actually cares about group cohesion like I always have.

 

I started playing MMOs only few years ago, Nov 2010 to be exact. EVE (my first MMO), Rift, Tera, WoW, GW2, FFXIV:ARR and of course SWTOR. All I've seen and heard about 3.0 looks good. I'll continue playing.

Edited November 7, 2014 by Halinalle

[LordArtemis]

I get asked to provide links or "proof" all the time...the most amusing request is one I get when I already posted the link two pages back. I just ignore those kind of demands.

 

I feel the fact that someone is posting in the forums proves they have internet access. Since the information is available on the internet, I expect them to search either the thread, the forum or the internet themselves to get the information they seek.

 

The demand, IMO, is usually a ploy to engage in forum PVP. Instead I let them chase down the info and argue with themselves.

 

As to the damage drop concerns, hopefully the blog and streams will help to alleviate some of the more exaggerated concerns folks are having, or at least provides solid information on which to base their concerns instead of speculation.

Edited November 7, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Quraswren]

....

 

 

As to the damage drop concerns, hopefully the blog and streams will help to alleviate some of the more exaggerated concerns folks are having, or at least provides solid information on which to base their concerns instead of speculation.

 

They have been rather tight lipped about it all. I don't think we are going to get the any answers for those questions.'

 

I think it's as simple as BW wanted DP/DF to stick around and be kept at a similar difficulty even to level 60's and 198 gear. You leveled up but only in appearance.

 

I just don't feel BW is really going to address the issue.

[ivanhedgehog]

They have been rather tight lipped about it all. I don't think we are going to get the any answers for those questions.'

 

I think it's as simple as BW wanted DP/DF to stick around and be kept at a similar difficulty even to level 60's and 198 gear. You leveled up but only in appearance.

 

I just don't feel BW is really going to address the issue.

 

we will find out on Dec 2 when subscriber beta test starts.

[KTap]

we will find out on Dec 2 when subscriber beta test starts.

 

 

/5char

[Savej]

Just as other posters have been telling you, there is a full transcript of the Developers discussing the adjustment to DPS. It is word-for-word accurate, I should know, I wrote it myself.

 

The two claims you are so interested in:

 

1) Content, if a problem, will be adjusted

 

"Sure, so the trick with that, of course, is relative to the players doing [nightmare Dread Fortress and Dread Palace] now, they might be getting a little more difficult, and that’s true. We will make some adjustments to counteract the Class differences,"

 

2) Mobs will actually be easier to kill after the sweeping changes

 

"Now the trick of course is, tangentially related to [players doing less damage], in the lower-level game, something that we wanted to do is we’ve sort of always felt as time has gone on, that the game, especially the (because the game’s more mature now and players tend to play the higher level), that we could speed up the low-level game. So one of the things that we’re doing is, effectively, all the mobs from, like, level 50 on down, all the mobs that you see out in the planetary content and in your Class missions, that kind of stuff, they’re actually all going to die faster. So it won’t be quite such a “slog,” is the word we’re used a lot, so you get through the game a little faster."

 

 

 

All mobs will not be easier. Mobs 51-60, outside of a raid, maybe, will be harder. Level 51 pcs will take longer to kill level 51 mobs compared to now. Level 60s will take longer to kill level 60 mobs than 55s currently take to kill current 55 mobs and level 55s will suddenly have a harder time killing level 55 mobs. How much harder is impossible for us to to say and is probably in flux. No one on these boards gives a fig about sub 51 mobs and your using them in this thread as some sort of argument proof basically invalidates your reasoning credentials.

[BuriDogshin]

Level 51 pcs will take longer to kill level 51 mobs compared to now.

Reduced mob density and GSI Orbital Support buff on Makeb: how much easier do you want L51-55 to be?

'nuff said.

[Sorwen]

Progression is about moving forward. If you end were you began that isn't moving forward.

[Brewski]

Progression is about moving forward. If you end were you began that isn't moving forward.

 

Luckily for us, you will end at level 60 instead of 55, so you still have progression!

 

They are rebalancing damage across the board. If you start a new toon post 3.0 and level from 1 to 60, your DPS will consistently go up at every level. So even DPS is going to progress.

 

The kind of mentality driving these arguments is pretty crazy. If Bioware tomorrow announced that all damage and health for all players and mobs would be multiplied by 10 when 3.0 launches, would you suddenly feel godlike because you are doing 10 times the damage even though it still takes you the same number of hits to kill something?

 

"Well sure, I still have it hit it five times to kill it, but now I am doing 5000 damage per hit instead of just 500! Obviously I'm much more powerful now!"

[Quraswren]

Luckily for us, you will end at level 60 instead of 55, so you still have progression!

 

Except that you ended up where you left off. Its the illusion of leveling this go around.

 

They are rebalancing damage across the board. If you start a new toon post 3.0 and level from 1 to 60, your DPS will consistently go up at every level. So even DPS is going to progress.

 

That does nothing for the bulk of gamers at end level now. It also makes little difference from the 1-60 for new gamers.

 

WHY? Cause that content is already easy. Doesn't really matter what BW does with it. We just had a 12X EXP boost and you were leveling faster than you could get gear and guess what? Gamers made it to 55 in record time. The content during that leveling period is easy. Adjusting it to say, "Oh we made it easier" is a joke or just some PR crap to push a higher end nerf. I call it a sales tactic.

 

The kind of mentality driving these arguments is pretty crazy. If Bioware tomorrow announced that all damage and health for all players and mobs would be multiplied by 10 when 3.0 launches, would you suddenly feel godlike because you are doing 10 times the damage even though it still takes you the same number of hits to kill something?

 

"Well sure, I still have it hit it five times to kill it, but now I am doing 5000 damage per hit instead of just 500! Obviously I'm much more powerful now!"

 

Kinda depends on how relative the changes are right?

 

I mean, if you get boosted by a power of 10 and mobs stay the same. It's a sure bet you will kill them faster. IF mobs also increase in power by 10 then its really a stalemate and you're the same as you were before.

 

so the bigger question here is, if DPS is going to be nerfed but content you are in does not change (55-60), then why was it done.

 

Just to nerf gamers because they can? Lets hope not.

 

Because BW says DPS got to high for a select few NM raider? Lets hope everyone else didn't get nerfed because a few really good gamers did really good DPS.

 

Just to keep some really old and worn out OPs around? BINGO! Thats the one. They didn't do all this because a few had high DPS or because the game was suddenly out of balance. It was to keep DF/DP around at 60 and not let gamers run though it like 55's do 50 content. Sure, you'll be 60 in 55 content but your gear will act as old 55 gear.

 

It turns the entire leveling into some warped facade from actually leveling up as most gamers know it and all done so they might keep DF/DP around for some extra comms and gamers not have an advantage because it's really old content.

 

I find the whole concept of what BW has done way off base. I'd like a bit of info here on why but I also don't think they care to explain why? After all, they are the developers and no way could they make a mistake on this. Kind alike, no way they would design content and let something like DPS get out of hand. Thats impossible right?

Edited November 7, 2014 by Quraswren

[Zoom_VI]

The amount of tinfoil hatting and deliberate self-delusion in this thread is astounding.

 

The fact that a particular poster is clinging on to the DF/DP conspiracy theory in the face of reason is particularly amusing.

Edited November 7, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[Quraswren]

The amount of tinfoil hatting and deliberate self-delusion in this thread is astounding.

 

The fact that a particular poster is clinging on to the DF/DP conspiracy theory in the face of reason is particularly amusing.

 

How you can't see it is more baffling But hey, not everyone is equipped to make an educated guess. Of course I use educated guess because until BW spills a bit more information, thats all we got to go on.

[Halinalle]

How you can't see it is more baffling But hey, not everyone is equipped to make an educated guess. Of course I use educated guess because until BW spills a bit more information, thats all we got to go on.

 

Have you already watched the stream?

[ivanhedgehog]

Reduced mob density and GSI Orbital Support buff on Makeb: how much easier do you want L51-55 to be?

'nuff said.

 

that system is broken on oricon..doesnt seem to work there

[Halinalle]

that system is broken on oricon..doesnt seem to work there

 

Because it doesn't work there?

Do you even need any buff there? I mean I just defeated all three bosses there today with my best geared Shadow (4x 146 armoring ).

[NogueiraA]

We are FAR, FAR away from seeing 50k hits...

 

I think this is not the time to reduce DPS, they could do it when people reach 20~22k hits.

Seems they're balancing the game according to those who cleared NiM content, this is a big mistake. Just a few players can break 4K DPS.

NOT saying it's wrong or right, just saying it is not the time to do it yet.

[DawnAskham]

Luckily for us, you will end at level 60 instead of 55, so you still have progression!

 

They are rebalancing damage across the board. If you start a new toon post 3.0 and level from 1 to 60, your DPS will consistently go up at every level. So even DPS is going to progress.

 

The kind of mentality driving these arguments is pretty crazy. If Bioware tomorrow announced that all damage and health for all players and mobs would be multiplied by 10 when 3.0 launches, would you suddenly feel godlike because you are doing 10 times the damage even though it still takes you the same number of hits to kill something?

 

"Well sure, I still have it hit it five times to kill it, but now I am doing 5000 damage per hit instead of just 500! Obviously I'm much more powerful now!"

 

If after the damage adjustments, a level 55 mob or boss takes the same amount of effort and time to kill at 55 as it did prior to the changes, then most of the 'complaints' would go away.

 

However, it isn't clear that relative power is being maintained, and rather sounds like at least some post level 50 content will be more difficult (take longer to kill) at level 55 after the changes that it does today, and further seems to be driven by an effort to keep current level 55 content relevant at 60 without actually moving it to 60 like they did with TFB at from 50 to 55.

 

It also sounds like if one subsequently levels to 60 and obtains new gear after the changes, current post level 50 content will will return to the same level of difficulty that existed prior to the expansion.

 

It sure seems like leveling to 55 and obtaining new gear will simply bring players back to where they started at 55 with respect to relative power, which sounds an awful lot like we'll be going in a circle like a dog chasing his tale, not actually progressing our characters forward.

Edited November 7, 2014 by DawnAskham

[Halinalle]

Seems they're balancing the game according to those who cleared NiM content, this is a big mistake. Just a few players can break 4K DPS.

 

Leave my OP class/spec alone, buff everything else?

 

Power creep much?

[DawnAskham]

Leave my OP class/spec alone, buff everything else?

 

Power creep much?

 

Rather than tone down the few OP outliers, nerf everything?

 

Overkill much?

[Halinalle]

Rather than tone down the few OP outliers, nerf everything?

 

 

And no, progression doesn't mean "to be God".

[Quraswren]

Have you already watched the stream?

 

You know. I actually did. Can't say I cared for nerfing everyone based on what they said.

 

I also can't see the logic in this:

 

1) Content, if a problem, will be adjusted

 

"Sure, so the trick with that, of course, is relative to the players doing [nightmare Dread Fortress and Dread Palace] now, they might be getting a little more difficult, and that’s true. We will make some adjustments to counteract the Class differences,"

 

So they are going to adjust content based on and relative to NM OP's players. the rare few that happen to be better than anyone else and can farm content most will never see and will ingeneral do better than most in the same gear. We'll thats just kinda stupid to adjust content for that.

 

BUT WAIT!

We have this too:

 

2) Mobs will actually be easier to kill after the sweeping changes

 

"Now the trick of course is, tangentially related to [players doing less damage], in the lower-level game, something that we wanted to do is we’ve sort of always felt as time has gone on, that the game, especially the (because the game’s more mature now and players tend to play the higher level), that we could speed up the low-level game. So one of the things that we’re doing is, effectively, all the mobs from, like, level 50 on down, all the mobs that you see out in the planetary content and in your Class missions, that kind of stuff, they’re actually all going to die faster. So it won’t be quite such a “slog,” is the word we’re used a lot, so you get through the game a little faster."

 

There going to adjust world mobs but only 50 and lower while they nerf everyone's DPS. This of course will affect those mostly at max level but not max level content. SO, the above statement from BW means little. You don't spend enough time in 1-50 content and given how easy the content is from 1-50 anyway, it matter even less. It makes little sense to care much about adjust 1-50 at this point to be easier. It's already easy and thats when gamers were leveling at super speed with 12X EXP bonus and not the gear they should have - and it was still easy to pull off.

 

So yea, I watch the Live stream, read some transcripts and came to the same conclusion.

 

Everyone is not getting nerf because DPs got out of hand on a few NM players. I refuse to believe BW was incompetent in that reward. There is no way they missed that and let it go.

 

You are getting nerfed to keep 55 content at the same difficulty at level 60 so you wont have an easier time getting ultimate comms from an old 55 Op's at level 60. They do not want 60 running 55 content an having an easier time as 55's do running 50 content and the actual gear jump that happen there. This time, you might get a so-called 5 levels but your gear goes no where from 186 to 198.

Edited November 7, 2014 by Quraswren

[Zoom_VI]

So they are going to adjust content based on and relative to NM OP's players. the rare few that happen to be better than anyone else and can farm content most will never see and will ingeneral do better than most in the same gear. We'll thats just kinda stupid to adjust content for that

 

What? How the hell did you draw that interpretation? They where referring to if the DPS nerf made the operations exceedingly difficult then they would change the operations to fix that.

 

Or in other words if you can clear NiM DF/DP now, you will still be able to in 3.0.

Edited November 7, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[LordArtemis]

I am against reducing the difficulty of CZ and Oricon for now.....at least until 3.0 comes out. I think there needs to be difficult PVE content in the game other than raids, and both locations represent a reasonable challenge to most players I would assume.

 

There is plenty of lower level content that is much less brutal, now including Makeb, that can provide the more casual player an enjoyable daily experience IMO.