Please, change the rules for "Needing" on gear.

[azudelphi]

I just came back to this game from FFXIV and there is literally NO complaining about loot drops in that game (well, other than range itself). If other games can implement a good loot system, then there's no reason Bioware can't as well. Trying to let them off the hook by saying their broken system is "fine", won't help progress in this game at all.

 

 

Also, If they'd borrow from other games other than WoW from time to time, they'd be a lot better off. WoW also always had these same kinds of loot issues due to players needing for off specs and such.

 

FFXIV Bioware..... look into it.

 

With legacy gear available in TOR and off-stat companions being in TOR, there is a 100% chance that "need" being exclusive to the class you are playing is likely to cause more strife than the current system.

 

I think their system might work for their game, it won't work for TOR.

 

Edit: And as best I can google, that's the primary difference between TOR's loot and FFXIV's loot system. They still have Need, Greed, Pass... but Need is exclusive to the character you are playing.

Edited October 29, 2014 by azudelphi

[Icestar]

I have noticed a trend during the last 10-15 threads discussing the lootsystem.

 

The ones with signatures confirming they are members of a guild and those with a handle that I know are in a guild are usually in favor of the current system. It might be beacuse those never have to experience what true pug gearing actually is. It might be only me that sees this, but it is something I have picked up along the way the latest loot threads or so.

 

I am guilded but I also enjoy the freedom of several guildless characters, the guilded characters has no problem at all gearing up since everyone respects the lootrules. The unguilded characters however has much more problems gearing up since no matter what is agreed upon at start, players do need on items that their current character can not use. This is very common with groupfinder teams.

 

I think it is important to have those two perspectives when talking about the current lootsystem, to truely gear up 10 characters through pugs up to 168-180 gear is a interesting experience.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Icestar

[TUXs]

This simply isn't true. A system that absolutely demands discord from the players should never be seen as "functioning just fine". Currently, all you can do is either hope that the players in your group are decent people, or ask for loot rules up front. And even that doesn't work because they'll always be that one awkward player who won't respond and play dumb when asked, and then proceed to need what ever they want.

 

Loot rules should be automated. You shouldn't have to go through a whole ordeal at the start of every single random party to establish that no one in the group is going to be a jerk. It's not fun and no one likes doing it. It's up to the developers to help keep the player base happy and adding a few fixes to insure people don't constantly lose upgrades to companion and alt rolls would go a long way. Especially with the new expansion coming soon.

That's a problem with humanity, not how loot rolls are handled. People are greedy. Greedy people exist no matter what system is in place...if the group is being greedy, do the same, kick them or leave the group. In any PuG Op, I expect to get no loot...because I greed everything.

[Galbatorrix]

With legacy gear available in TOR and off-stat companions being in TOR, there is a 100% chance that "need" being exclusive to the class you are playing is likely to cause more strife than the current system.

 

I think their system might work for their game, it won't work for TOR.

 

 

FFXIV has a "Job" system that allows you to create 1 single character and then level every single job in the game (That's 9 jobs/classes on 1 character). So, someone who has all 9 jobs leveled to 50 could quite literally need every single piece of loot that drops for one of their jobs. But, they know that they can only need on items that are specific to their current job/role, so if they want to gear a certain job, they participate in the dungeons as that job.

 

So, there's no difference in what each player potentially "needs" between the two games. In both games, a player could more than likely use everything that drops in some form or another. The only real difference is that SE made the better decision by giving players performing a specific job/role an advantage to win loot created to better the performance of that job/role.

 

 

Bioware created a free for all, which is actually worse than the system WOW used at the time... and WOWs system was pretty darned bad too.

 

 

Edit: And as best I can google, that's the primary difference between TOR's loot and FFXIV's loot system. They still have Need, Greed, Pass... but Need is exclusive to the character you are playing.

.

 

Which is exactly what TOR needs. If you want gear for an alt/companion, greed it. Which is exactly what people do in FFXIV if they want gear for one of their other jobs.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Galbatorrix

[Gleneagle]

I have noticed a trend during the last 10-15 threads discussing the lootsystem.

 

The ones with signatures confirming they are members of a guild and those with a handle that I know are in a guild are usually in favor of the current system. It might be beacuse those never have to experience what true pug gearing actually is. It might be only me that sees this, but it is something I have picked up along the way the latest loot threads or so.

 

I am guilded but I also enjoy the freedom of several guildless characters, the guilded characters has no problem at all gearing up since everyone respects the lootrules. The unguilded characters however has much more problems gearing up since no matter what is agreed upon at start, players do need on items that their current character can not use. This is very common with groupfinder teams.

 

I think it is important to have those two perspectives when talking about the current lootsystem, to truely gear up 10 characters through pugs up to 168-180 gear is a interesting experience.

I think you should go into signals intelligence because you notice cogent patterns that aren't obvious. Bioware/EA are invested in the philosophy that guilds are better for the game in terms of retention, so development choices are chosen to make it easier if you guild. I'd venture to infer that the preferences of those who don't guild, compared to those who do, are valued similarly as greed is to need. Where an issue is of no consequence to a design question the preferences of non-guilding subs are consulted over F2P players, but where guilders do have a preference their desires find domain.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Gleneagle

[azudelphi]

FFXIV has a "Job" system that allows you to create 1 single character and then level every single job in the game (That's 9 jobs/classes on 1 character). So, someone who has all 9 jobs leveled to 50 could quite literally need every single piece of loot that drops for one of their jobs. But, they know that they can only need on items that are specific to their current job/role, so if they want to gear a certain job, they participate in the dungeons as that job.

 

So, there's no difference in what each player potentially "needs" between the two games. In both games, a player could more than likely use everything that drops in some form or another. The only real difference is that SE made the better decision by giving players performing a specific job/role an advantage to win loot created to better the performance of that job/role.

 

Bioware created a free for all, which is actually worse than the system WOW used at the time... and WOWs system was pretty darned bad too.

 

If you define "Need" as can be used exclusively on the character you are playing, then yes... that is a better system.

 

Problem is that isn't the only definition of "Need". Quite frankly, the only undisputed definition of "Need" is "I have a higher desire for it than the person who presses Greed". That's not necessarily a bad system; it allows the freedom for someone who can use an item (even if not on the character they are playing, but an alt or companion) the ability to put a drop to use over being vendor trash.

 

There are cons to this system, I am not disputing that. But no, FFXIV's system would not be a good match here. And there is no such thing as a system without cons.

[Foambreaker]

That's the same thing you all said in the WoW thread 8 years ago

[DeLaaNie]

...

Also, the weekly cap on commendations needs to go. MAYBE it's okay for Ultimate comms since those are harder to get anyway and that 180 gear should take a while to build up to, but Elite comms should have no such cap. If you're willing to keep running 55 Hard FP's over and over again and put in the work to earn your Elite comms, you should be allowed to get as many as you want in one week.

 

People that want to put in the work and have the time to do so should be rewarded, not bottlenecked by some silly restriction like a weekly commendation cap. You don't see it with Fleet Comms or Warzone Comms.

 

Actually, Warzone Commendations do possess a cap and as such, it is very infuriating. After getting the hang of PvP and enjoying it, it became problematic to run into the cap so early in my, uhh, career (for lack of a better term). Not only is the cap annoying, but I hate the fact that I cannot purchase any high level gear with it whatsoever. What does it matter the gear's level?

 

I had to earn the Commendations so I should be able to buy the items I need and save them for when I reach the appropriate level. Since when is saving a crime? Why can't I earn the needed Commendations now, purchase all of the level 55 PvP gear that I need, and store it within my bin? That way when I reach level 55 I will have all of the stuff I need instead of basically having to start from scratch.

 

And no, don't give me any horrible excuses; I can go on a higher level character and buy higher level items from the Galactic Trade Network, place them within my Legacy bin, and take them out as needed. Same crap here in a nutshell...

 

Even the reputation limits are stupid, and the inability to sell the excess certificates is foolish. This game sometimes, I swear...

[azudelphi]

Actually, Warzone Commendations do possess a cap and as such, it is very infuriating. After getting the hang of PvP and enjoying it, it became problematic to run into the cap so early in my, uhh, career (for lack of a better term). Not only is the cap annoying, but I hate the fact that I cannot purchase any high level gear with it whatsoever. What does it matter the gear's level?

 

I had to earn the Commendations so I should be able to buy the items I need and save them for when I reach the appropriate level. Since when is saving a crime? Why can't I earn the needed Commendations now, purchase all of the level 55 PvP gear that I need, and store it within my bin? That way when I reach level 55 I will have all of the stuff I need instead of basically having to start from scratch.

 

And no, don't give me any horrible excuses; I can go on a higher level character and buy higher level items from the Galactic Trade Network, place them within my Legacy bin, and take them out as needed. Same crap here in a nutshell...

 

Even the reputation limits are stupid, and the inability to sell the excess certificates is foolish. This game sometimes, I swear...

 

I believe he meant that Fleet and Warzone comms don't have weekly caps... not that they didn't have caps at all.

[Galbatorrix]

If you define "Need" as can be used exclusively on the character you are playing, then yes... that is a better system.

 

Problem is that isn't the only definition of "Need". Quite frankly, the only undisputed definition of "Need" is "I have a higher desire for it than the person who presses Greed". That's not necessarily a bad system; it allows the freedom for someone who can use an item (even if not on the character they are playing, but an alt or companion) the ability to put a drop to use over being vendor trash.

 

There are cons to this system, I am not disputing that. But no, FFXIV's system would not be a good match here. And there is no such thing as a system without cons.

 

Ok, arguing over semantics really isn't going to get us anywhere. Anyone who's played MMOs a lot know that it's the social norm to only need roll on loot intended for the class/role you're currently performing. This isn't a new concept in MMOs. It's been pretty well established for over a decade through out several games. This is the definition of "need" when it comes to MMOs. You can try to argue that all you want, but every MMO vet out there knows this to be true.

 

On the flip side, your version of need has also always caused issues within MMO communities. No MMO I've ever played had a player base that was mostly ok with people rolling on gear their currently class/role couldn't use. In WOW, it's people rolling for off class and here it's people rolling for alts and companions. Either way, this is almost always viewed as a shady move and a lot of the time, players who do it end up kicked from groups, and ostracized.

 

So, define "need" which ever way you personally want to, but in the MMO world, "need" definitely generally means "I need this drop for my current class/role". And swaying from that definition is normally met with discord.

 

With that, I'm done... no point arguing over semantics, and it seems like that's where this is going.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Galbatorrix

[azudelphi]

Ok, arguing over semantics really isn't going to get us anywhere. Anyone who's played MMOs a lot know that it's the social norm to only need roll on loot intended for the class/role you're currently performing. This isn't a new concept in MMOs. It's been pretty well established for over a decade through out several games. This is the definition of "need" when it comes to MMOs. You can try to argue that all you want, but every MMO vet out there knows this to be true.

 

On the flip side, your version of need has also always caused issues within MMO communities. No MMO I've ever played had a player base that was mostly ok with people rolling on gear their currently class/role couldn't use. In WOW, it's people rolling for off class and here it's people rolling for alts and companions. Either way, this is almost always viewed as shady move and a lot of the time, players who do it end up kicked from groups, and ostracized.

 

So, define "need" which ever way you personally want to, but in the MMO world, "need" definitely generally means "I need this drop for my current class/role". An swaying from that definition is normally met with discord.

 

With that, I'm done... no point arguing over semantics, and it seems like that's where this is going.

 

If you silently roll need for alts and companions, then yes it's a problem. If you ask and get approval, then no it isn't.

 

But that doesn't require a system change, that requires communication.

[Galbatorrix]

If you silently roll need for alts and companions, then yes it's a problem. If you ask and get approval, then no it isn't.

 

But that doesn't require a system change, that requires communication.

 

Well, according to your previous statement, then rolling need at any given time regardless of communication isn't a problem because if the player saw some sort of need for the item, then it's completely their right to press the need button. So, make up your mind.

[Code_Airwolf]

If you silently roll need for alts and companions, then yes it's a problem. If you ask and get approval, then no it isn't.

 

But that doesn't require a system change, that requires communication.

 

If it's open to interpretation, which it is, then it will always be flawed. Example, the drop is something Player A has been really wanting to get for an Alt that they can throw in Legacy storage. That to paying Player A is a need. That to Player B, however, is seen as greed. Rant ensues. Therein lies the problem. Once the population decides to mandate that a particular choice or option the game makes available to you makes you an a-hole, then having the option there is pointless. Might as well not even be there. Which brings me back to my earlier statement, I don't see why all drops are not just a roll, and whoever gets it gets it, trade afterwards if necessary. Takes 5 seconds to trade. Or simply have two options, to participate in the roll, or not participate if you have no need for it whatsoever and want to increase the chances of those who do. The current system as it is has caused nothing but hurt feelings and arguments for like 3 years now. jmho. (again, this problem might not correlate to Guildies running groups, etc, who know eachother and are all on the same wavelength......yet even still, Guildies could trade or use Yes/No options effectively as well, just the same)

Edited October 29, 2014 by Code_Airwolf

[Reno_Tarshil]

I just came back to this game from FFXIV and there is literally NO complaining about loot drops in that game (well, other than range itself). If other games can implement a good loot system, then there's no reason Bioware can't as well. Trying to let them off the hook by saying their broken system is "fine", won't help progress in this game at all.

 

 

Also, If they'd borrow from other games other than WoW from time to time, they'd be a lot better off. WoW also always had these same kinds of loot issues due to players needing for off specs and such.

 

FFXIV Bioware..... look into it.

 

But this is a good loot system. It works. There is no reason to change it.

[azudelphi]

Well, according to your previous statement, then rolling need at any given time regardless of communication isn't a problem because if the player saw some sort of need for the item, then it's completely their right to press the need button. So, make up your mind.

 

My point before was that restricting "Need" to only current classes is a bad idea because, with social approval, there are people who could and should roll "Need" on items their PC can't use in order to have a drop go to them over those that are pressing "Greed". But the conditions for that are entirely contextual to the group; hence, communication is key.

 

Is that a bit clearer?

[robertthebard]

If you silently roll need for alts and companions, then yes it's a problem. If you ask and get approval, then no it isn't.

 

But that doesn't require a system change, that requires communication.

 

The latter isn't the problem, the former is, and it happens a lot. I commented on this way up thread, but if everyone understands going in that I'm going to be rolling for specific gear for alts, then it's not a ninja move to do so, I stated that that was my intent. Instead of arguing the semantics of "Need", let's look at the definition of ninja, well, not literally, but a ninja doesn't send you an email a month in advance stating their intent to whack you, they slide in the back un-noticed, and whack you. This is the thing that is defined as loot ninja, not "Hey, I need to roll need for my alt, is that a problem?", because then, if it is a problem, the person can elect to either run it, or drop, before the group enters, and find a group where it won't be. It's never a problem for me, if someone is clear, and nobody's trying to say that that's the issue.

[leihn]

FFXIV has a "Job" system that allows you to create 1 single character and then level every single job in the game (That's 9 jobs/classes on 1 character). So, someone who has all 9 jobs leveled to 50 could quite literally need every single piece of loot that drops for one of their jobs. But, they know that they can only need on items that are specific to their current job/role, so if they want to gear a certain job, they participate in the dungeons as that job.

 

2 Questions.

 

1. I'm not familiar with how jobs relate to roles or how parties are assembled in FF, so just using a SWTOR example, suppose your regular FP group is 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 dps, or your ops group of twice or four times those, if we already have a sorc dps in one of our slots or a vanguard tank it would now be in our best interest to lower loot contention by not taking additional aim or willpower players in our group under this loot system because that will allow us to roll off-job for loot that does drop with our primary attribute because no one else will be able to need it correct? This is the biggest concern I have with any job restricted loot systems, because it forces people to turn away players for their groups in order to lower loot contention.

 

2. Your second statement seems to invalidate the first, you stress that the system is robust and prevents people from rolling for things they don't need but then go on to say that the system actually allows you to roll for anything you want if you have all the jobs and it's the players who actually agree to adhere to popular loot rules. Which is it? Does FF just have a better community or does their loot system actually have an impact on people rolling need for everything?

Edited October 29, 2014 by leihn

[Galbatorrix]

But this is a good loot system. It works. There is no reason to change it.

 

If that were true, these threads wouldn't keep popping up three years later.

[azudelphi]

If that were true, these threads wouldn't keep popping up three years later.

 

To be fair, yes they would. People complain. It's inevitable.

[DawnAskham]

My point before was that restricting "Need" to only current classes is a bad idea because, with social approval, there are people who could and should roll "Need" on items their PC can't use in order to have a drop go to them over those that are pressing "Greed". But the conditions for that are entirely contextual to the group; hence, communication is key.

 

Is that a bit clearer?

 

I fail to see how a restricted Need loot system would affect the player in your example.

 

If the group all agreed player A could have the item, nothing about a restricted Need loot system would keep them from Passing or trading the item to player A.

 

What it would do is prevent player A from waiting for the group to roll Greed before rolling Need to take the item, as well as keep player A from rolling Need on it after the group decided that it was not appropriate for them to do so.

 

But I imagine you already knew that, and just don't want an alternative loot system that might keep you from taking items through Need rolls regardless of the group's wishes.

Edited October 29, 2014 by DawnAskham

[LordArtemis]

The system is functioning as designed. So to say it works is correct. Also, to state that you can simply agree to all vote need is also correct IMO. That solves the problems from my perspective.

 

However, to say there is no need to change it is a bit narrow minded IMO. The system would work better, IMO, if it did not have a need option, and there is NO NEED FOR A NEED OPTION.

 

A need option is a convenience feature that some folks game to get a better roll chance. It is not vital to the system IMO. What is vital to the system, as it is now designed, is to have a loot roll.

 

Removing need still gives you that loot role. There is NO need for someone to have a better chance than someone else IMO.

 

So, no, there is no need to change it, but it would make more sense to have it with greed only IMO.

[leihn]

The system is functioning as designed. So to say it works is correct. Also, to state that you can simply agree to all vote need is also correct IMO. That solves the problems from my perspective.

 

However, to say there is no need to change it is a bit narrow minded IMO. The system would work better, IMO, if it did not have a need option, and there is NO NEED FOR A NEED OPTION.

 

A need option is a convenience feature that some folks game to get a better roll chance. It is not vital to the system IMO. What is vital to the system, as it is now designed, is to have a loot roll.

 

Removing need still gives you that loot role. There is NO need for someone to have a better chance than someone else IMO.

 

So, no, there is no need to change it, but it would make more sense to have it with greed only IMO.

 

Going back to a previous poster's argument, I don't really see how a two tier system is better than a three tier system and these don't seem to address the same issues.

 

Like if everyone rolls greed and one person rolls need it would appear that no one needed the item, this is the only thing that would be changed by going to a 2 tier system, people won't have their willingness to roll greed result in a less fair chance at loot they didn't need (so credits), but that doesn't stop them from simply just passing if they didn't need the gear (which is likely what many players will do) resulting in the same end result.

 

If instead, the original problem of people not needing a piece of gear for their current toon rolls need to try and take it from someone who does need it for their current toon was posed this move to 2 tier options of rolling doesn't solve anything, if anything, it makes it more difficult for that person to get the piece they needed because now it is seen as acceptable to roll for everything because you are available to roll for it at the same level.

[Galbatorrix]

2 Questions.

 

1. I'm not familiar with how jobs relate to roles or how parties are assembled in FF, so just using a SWTOR example, suppose your regular FP group is 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 dps, or your ops group of twice or four times those, if we already have a sorc dps in one of our slots or a vanguard tank it would now be in our best interest to lower loot contention by not taking additional aim or willpower players in our group under this loot system because that will allow us to roll off-job for loot that does drop with our primary attribute because no one else will be able to need it correct? This is the biggest concern I have with any job restricted loot systems, because it forces people to turn away players for their groups in order to lower loot contention.

 

2. Your second statement seems to invalidate the first, you stress that the system is robust and prevents people from rolling for things they don't need but then go on to say that the system actually allows you to roll for anything you want if you have all the jobs and it's the players who actually agree to adhere to popular loot rules. Which is it? Does FF just have a better community or does their loot system actually have an impact on people rolling need for everything?

 

 

1. That's the same for basically all MMOs and changing to a better loot system wouldn't change that. If you're raiding in your guild as a combat medic commando, do you really want another combat medic in the raid or would you rather bring along a Sage or Scoundrel? First, it brings more variety and second, it stops your two healers from having to fight over gear. So, changing to a better Need/greed system like in FFXIV wouldn't change anything on this front. If your guild has a marauder that has loot priority for medium STR gear, do you really want to bring your Marauder as well?

 

2. Their loot rules restricts need rolls to current job/role only. You can still greed on gear for your other jobs, but if anyone in the group can need on it (meaning it was made for their current job/role), then they get priority. Also, it doesn't allow duplicates. So, people can't keep needing on gear they're already wearing.

 

The point is, SE took the community out of the equation when it comes to loot drops in PUGs. If you want to gear up your Dragoon, you queue up as your Dragoon. You can't queue up with your Warrior tank and then tell the group that you're entitled to all Dragoon loot. Unfortunately, in this game, tanks can and will do this often.

 

On a side note, guilds who raid still make their own rules in FFXIV, as they should. The games loot rules aren't to enforce rules on everyone. It's mainly just to keep PUGs friendly.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Galbatorrix

[LordArtemis]

Going back to a previous poster's argument, I don't really see how a two tier system is better than a three tier system and these don't seem to address the same issues.

 

Like if everyone rolls greed and one person rolls need it would appear that no one needed the item, this is the only thing that would be changed by going to a 2 tier system, people won't have their willingness to roll greed result in a less fair chance at loot they didn't need (so credits), but that doesn't stop them from simply just passing if they didn't need the gear (which is likely what many players will do) resulting in the same end result.

 

If instead, the original problem of people not needing a piece of gear for their current toon rolls need to try and take it from someone who does need it for their current toon was posed this move to 2 tier options of rolling doesn't solve anything, if anything, it makes it more difficult for that person to get the piece they needed because now it is seen as acceptable to roll for everything because you are available to roll for it at the same level.

 

My point is that no one needs the loot on a roll. They simply want it or they do not want it. They may want it for coin, or for use, but it is still a desire for the item.

 

That desire is fairly represented, IMO, buy a simple loot roll, and your choice to demonstrate a desire to have it or not. A need option is not necessary to the system.

[leihn]

1. That's the same for basically all MMOs and changing to a better loot system wouldn't change that. If you're raiding in your guild as a combat medic commando, do you really want another combat medic in the raid or would you rather bring along a Sage or Scoundrel? First, it brings more variety and second, it stops your two healers from having to fight over gear. So, changing to a better Need/greed system like in FFXIV wouldn't change anything on this front. If your guild has a marauder that has loot priority for medium STR gear, do you really want to bring your Marauder as well?

 

2. Their loot rules restricts need rolls to current job/role only. You can still greed on gear for your other jobs, but if anyone in the group can need on it (meaning it was made for their current job/role), then they get priority. Also, it doesn't allow duplicates. So, people can't keep needing on gear they're already wearing.

 

The point is, SE took the community out of the equation when it comes to loot drops in PUGs. If you want to gear up your Dragoon, you queue up as your Dragoon. You can't queue up with your Warrior tank and then tell the group that you're entitled to all Dragoon loot. Unfortunately, in this game, tanks can and will do this often.

 

On a side note, guilds who raid still make their own rules in FFXIV, as they should. The games loot rules aren't to enforce rules on everyone. It's mainly just to keep PUGs friendly.

 

How does FF treat gear that is off role but on stat for you, ie you're healing as a commando, a piece of aim gear tank gear drops, there is only a str tank in the party, do you get priority or do you have to greed roll with everyone else? Or is it not applicable to FF because the roles don't have overlapping stats?

 

My point is that no one needs the loot on a roll. They simply want it or they do not want it. They may want it for coin, or for use, but it is still a desire for the item.

 

That desire is fairly represented, IMO, buy a simple loot roll, and your choice to demonstrate a desire to have it or not. A need option is not necessary to the system.

 

Uh, well I don't know if this is the argument being presented by the majority of the people in this topic, it seems like most people are arguing that the need of people who can actively use the gear on the character currently running the content supercedes any other 'needs' >_>