Things Veteran Players Wish Newbs Knew

[DeLaaNie]

There are some really good points there, now if only the people that this would apply to actually read the forums

 

The communication part in pvp really gets me, I'm a very below average PVP player but I call incomings and am often successful at capping nodes if i get another stealther with me.

 

The bit I liked about your communication thing is saying "2 inc West" My pet gripe is people calling LEFT or RIGHT. They need to understand that left and right are all about perspective and the West and East are fixed locations. Yet I still get players claiming that people don't know there left from there right and we are baddies.

 

I remember I spent a whole Voidstar dropping off the wrong way at respawn because the "Leader" was facing the spawn point and calling his/her left or right which was the opposite of mine, As many times as I try to point this out I got abuse and was called a noob. I still post East/West myself (and even as turrets are labelled east/west, Novare comes to mind.) but no longer try to suggest corrections for the fear of the Vitriol I will suffer.

 

That probably has to do with the fact that a lot of us Westerners do not refer to the cardinal points during everyday conversation; we are not Aborigines after all. In my home country, there is no concept of East or West in relation to direction unless you physically possess a compass in hand at the time. Not only that, when you are giving directions they usually go, "Head straight to Road B, then turn left past the roundabout, then turn right".

 

It's easy to say people should know East and West but if it is not commonly used, how can they? When I exit a train station where I reside (NYC) there's no way someone can tell me to head East and I'll automatically know where to go. Now if they say, "when you exit the station go left", my feet will automatically assume the correct direction.

 

Another example of this, albeit backwards (so to speak) is an experiment conducted with Aborigine children who do possess the concept of the cardinal directions, but do not use left and right in their language. When the children were asked to retrieve a ball on the left side of the room, they were dumbfounded as they had no idea what left meant. When instructed to retrieve the same ball from the West side of the room, they merrily brought it back.

 

I do agree that because the cardinals are fixed, they would be easier for communication, similar to Port and Starboard, but alas, left and right are too ingrained, so you'll have to take the few seconds to ask if it's their left or right, or, just highlight their name and see if the marker can direct you to them.

[DeLaaNie]

I think there are plenty of well known pro players in this thread that simply find your method of insulting folks distasteful. It is pretty silly, IMO, to fall of the fallacy that folks that do not care for your method are "bads".

 

I think it's pretty obvious you are leveling insults on purpose for self satisfaction. That does not mean your advice is not useful, but what it does mean, as I indicated in the past, is that you open your comments to additional scrutiny.

 

Plenty of folks give top level advice without resorting to insults. This disproves your theory.

 

This is why I ignored his original post after he started referring to everyone as "idiots" or stating that what they were doing is "stupid". For example, under the tag referring to Aggro, he immediately resorts to berating any Tanks who guard healers not only once, but twice, before he handed off his explanation as to why guarding a healer is not as beneficial as guarding a DPS.

 

No one wants to be insulted especially when they are doing something for the first time, or when they think that what they were doing was right because they already had their own reasons worked out in their head. This is why a lot of players repeatedly perform the same non-beneficial tasks over and over, because they would rather ignore someone like him than to take his advice and make him feel like King S***.

 

If it were me, I would have simply stated that it is not a good idea to guard a healer and here is why. To top it all off, everyone does not want to be the best; they just want to play their own way and have fun while doing so. No one wants to play a video game wherein every two seconds they get yelled at or are told that they suck for simply having fun. I have partied with some people who, after explaining what their role should be or what to do during a boss fight to make it easier should do, still continued to "do their own thang".

 

So what did I do? I just picked up their slack as best as I could while still performing my own role and everything went smoothly. At the end, the person said thank you for the team up, and merrily went on their own way. Point is, they had fun and so did I. Eventually they will learn how to make it easier on themselves and that will be good, but to expect everyone to play like a boss is just silly; Rome was not constructed within a day.

 

It's people like him (the original poster) that provide scorn and make other people detest some fun aspects of the game such as PvP. I have seen a lot of player join warzones and just run around killing; they see PvP as a kill-fest and not an objective fest, but the thing is, they are having fun. If you don't want to hang around with normal people, then get a group of like minded individuals like yourself and go make your own game.

[Gleneagle]

Spend time in the wilds and you will gain two skills: navigation by direction and navigation by landmark. While gaining these if you use a decent map you may also gain a third: navigation by coordinate. Edited October 29, 2014 by Gleneagle

[Dras_Keto]

People keep writing these little epistles about how Im such a horrible, evil person. Im not sure what youre trying to accomplish. (By the way, dont think I havent noticed that while youre berating me for what amounts to a couple indirect accusations of stupidity, you doing exactly the same thing, or worse, and in far greater volume. It just doesnt bother me... Sorry. )

 

---

 

As far as this goes, I am BAFFLED.

 

That probably has to do with the fact that a lot of us Westerners do not refer to the cardinal points during everyday conversation; we are not Aborigines after all. In my home country, there is no concept of East or West in relation to direction unless you physically possess a compass in hand at the time. Not only that, when you are giving directions they usually go, "Head straight to Road B, then turn left past the roundabout, then turn right".

 

I mean, sure. People rarely say that, "Oh, Coldstone is east of the Walgreens." They say that its next to, to the left of, down the block from, or whatever depending on perspective.

 

But you cant actually expect me to believe that people have no concept of East or West. Thats just a bit too incredible.

 

Edit: Lets say for a second that what you say is accurate and there is this entire segment of the worlds population who both have the resources and ability to play this game and a cultural upbringing and daily life that has ZERO concept of the idea of North and South, East and West. Guess what? They can learn.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Dras_Keto

[LyraineAlei]

That probably has to do with the fact that a lot of us Westerners do not refer to the cardinal points during everyday conversation; we are not Aborigines after all. In my home country, there is no concept of East or West in relation to direction unless you physically possess a compass in hand at the time. Not only that, when you are giving directions they usually go, "Head straight to Road B, then turn left past the roundabout, then turn right".

 

It's easy to say people should know East and West but if it is not commonly used, how can they? When I exit a train station where I reside (NYC) there's no way someone can tell me to head East and I'll automatically know where to go. Now if they say, "when you exit the station go left", my feet will automatically assume the correct direction.

 

Another example of this, albeit backwards (so to speak) is an experiment conducted with Aborigine children who do possess the concept of the cardinal directions, but do not use left and right in their language. When the children were asked to retrieve a ball on the left side of the room, they were dumbfounded as they had no idea what left meant. When instructed to retrieve the same ball from the West side of the room, they merrily brought it back.

 

I do agree that because the cardinals are fixed, they would be easier for communication, similar to Port and Starboard, but alas, left and right are too ingrained, so you'll have to take the few seconds to ask if it's their left or right, or, just highlight their name and see if the marker can direct you to them.

 

I have my map default to not rotate as I am moving, so when looking at something in relation to me on the map, I use cardinal directions since not everyone is facing the same way as me.

[Jadescythe]

People keep writing these little epistles about how Im such a horrible, evil person. Im not sure what youre trying to accomplish. (By the way, dont think I havent noticed that while youre berating me for what amounts to a couple indirect accusations of stupidity, you doing exactly the same thing, or worse, and in far greater volume. It just doesnt bother me... Sorry. )

 

---

 

As far as this goes, I am BAFFLED.

 

 

 

I mean, sure. People rarely say that, "Oh, Coldstone is east of the Walgreens." They say that its next to, to the left of, down the block from, or whatever depending on perspective.

 

But you cant actually expect me to believe that people have no concept of East or West. Thats just a bit too incredible.

 

Edit: Lets say for a second that what you say is accurate and there is this entire segment of the worlds population who both have the resources and ability to play this game and a cultural upbringing and daily life that has ZERO concept of the idea of North and South, East and West. Guess what? They can learn.

 

I'm going to have to agree with all of this. In some misguidedly valiant effort to put the OP in his place, people have been doing the exact same thing they are complaining about. Honestly, there are a lot of these types of posts that go up and they get almost 0 visibility or continued discussion. 4 or 5 people say good job and it's done. The controversy in here has actually kept it on the front page and has probably given far more players the chance to read the points.

 

And any area I'm familiar with, I can tell which way is North and figure out the rest of the directions from there. Sure, I'll tell someone to take a left over go West, but that doesn't mean I can't figure it out. I also primarily use a digital clock on my phone, but that doesn't mean I can't read an analog watch.

[LordArtemis]

This is why I ignored his original post after he started referring to everyone as "idiots" or stating that what they were doing is "stupid". For example, under the tag referring to Aggro, he immediately resorts to berating any Tanks who guard healers not only once, but twice, before he handed off his explanation as to why guarding a healer is not as beneficial as guarding a DPS.

 

No one wants to be insulted especially when they are doing something for the first time, or when they think that what they were doing was right because they already had their own reasons worked out in their head. This is why a lot of players repeatedly perform the same non-beneficial tasks over and over, because they would rather ignore someone like him than to take his advice and make him feel like King S***.

 

If it were me, I would have simply stated that it is not a good idea to guard a healer and here is why. To top it all off, everyone does not want to be the best; they just want to play their own way and have fun while doing so. No one wants to play a video game wherein every two seconds they get yelled at or are told that they suck for simply having fun. I have partied with some people who, after explaining what their role should be or what to do during a boss fight to make it easier should do, still continued to "do their own thang".

 

So what did I do? I just picked up their slack as best as I could while still performing my own role and everything went smoothly. At the end, the person said thank you for the team up, and merrily went on their own way. Point is, they had fun and so did I. Eventually they will learn how to make it easier on themselves and that will be good, but to expect everyone to play like a boss is just silly; Rome was not constructed within a day.

 

It's people like him (the original poster) that provide scorn and make other people detest some fun aspects of the game such as PvP. I have seen a lot of player join warzones and just run around killing; they see PvP as a kill-fest and not an objective fest, but the thing is, they are having fun. If you don't want to hang around with normal people, then get a group of like minded individuals like yourself and go make your own game.

 

Just to be clear, I take no issue with any indicated behavior in game. A person can act any way they wish naturally. Nor do I lack empathy when it comes to the plight of players that have to suffer a less enjoyable playing session when grouped with players that demonstrate a lack of skill in gameplay.

 

So, I support the idea that the OP had a right to complain, and certainly posted some great advice IMO, not that the OP needed my approval.

 

My issue was with how it was presented on this board. Posting direct insults is a violation of the forum rules, and calling a player a "tool" stands as an example of this.

 

Therefore my only issue is with the presentation of the post. And naturally the OP does not need my approval, nor did the OP likely seek it.

[Dras_Keto]

At this point, if I had it, Id see it as cause for concern.

[Calsetes]

I guard healers because, absolute worst-case scenario, if both DPS guys go down it'd be a battle of attrition. Long and drawn-out, but possible to win. If the healer goes down, the fight better be over really quickly or else we're all screwed.

 

It's not meant to belittle the DPS guys - I primarily play a DPS character - but if you're in a fight with something, given the choice of having your head crushed or your spear / sword / weapon destroyed, I'd take the latter and try to win with my fists and what little broken bits of a spear I might have left. I kind of need my head to live.

[MillionsKNives]

I guard healers because, absolute worst-case scenario, if both DPS guys go down it'd be a battle of attrition. Long and drawn-out, but possible to win. If the healer goes down, the fight better be over really quickly or else we're all screwed.

 

It's not meant to belittle the DPS guys - I primarily play a DPS character - but if you're in a fight with something, given the choice of having your head crushed or your spear / sword / weapon destroyed, I'd take the latter and try to win with my fists and what little broken bits of a spear I might have left. I kind of need my head to live.

 

Ok, that's good. You want to help keep the healer alive. But how is guard actually helping to achieve this?

[hadoken]

Ok, that's good. You want to help keep the healer alive. But how is guard actually helping to achieve this?

 

They take less damage and generate less threat with it on them?

[Calsetes]

Ok, that's good. You want to help keep the healer alive. But how is guard actually helping to achieve this?

 

If something happens to go hit the healer and I don't manage to pull it away fast enough that it hits the healer once or twice, that cuts into the healer's health. That's less HP for a Sage to use for Noble Sacrifice for more Force to keep everyone else alive. That's a little bit closer to death the healer's going. That's a teensy bit more health I can save the healer should anyone else screw up their jobs and not save them, including myself.

 

It's there as a backup. One I hope I never have to worry about using, but it's there. I can't always expect the DPS guys to grab enemies off the healer in time, and I can't trust myself to not notice things going horribly wrogn in case the healer gets hit and starts freaking and deciding "That's it, this tank is dying because he missed a single mob somehow!"

 

You know, accidents happen.

[azudelphi]

Ok, that's good. You want to help keep the healer alive. But how is guard actually helping to achieve this?

 

Exactly.

 

In PVE, Guards are to prevent others from taking threat off the tank; the 5% DR is a perk, but typically it's inconsequential. In a battle of attrition where it's tank and healer against tough mob, the tough mob (barring a simultaneous stun and threat dump mechanic that the tank can't break) the healer will never have aggro.

 

In essence, the concept of the guard is to prevent the DPS (and possibly the group based on fight mechanics) from dying because they became a tank inadvertently just by doing their job of dealing damage. There are few exceptions where guards have their place on non-DPS.

[azudelphi]

If something happens to go hit the healer and I don't manage to pull it away fast enough that it hits the healer once or twice, that cuts into the healer's health. That's less HP for a Sage to use for Noble Sacrifice for more Force to keep everyone else alive. That's a little bit closer to death the healer's going. That's a teensy bit more health I can save the healer should anyone else screw up their jobs and not save them, including myself.

 

It's there as a backup. One I hope I never have to worry about using, but it's there. I can't always expect the DPS guys to grab enemies off the healer in time, and I can't trust myself to not notice things going horribly wrogn in case the healer gets hit and starts freaking and deciding "That's it, this tank is dying because he missed a single mob somehow!"

 

You know, accidents happen.

 

The guard won't help in this scenario... if something is attacking the healer, the only way to get it off the healer is threat through damage or threat through taunts. Healers have indirect threat, tanks do not. So long as there is no direct threat generation on the adds, it doesn't matter.

 

Mathematically it's as follows:

 

X = threat reduction percent from guard

Y = indirect threat generated from heals

0 = direct threat generated by tank without a taunt or attack

 

Y * (1 - X) > 0

 

Which will be true unless the threat reduction is 100%; which it isn't (TOR has a 25% guard threat reduction).

 

Edit: And you should expect the tank to take adds off you... if something is on you, they should taunt, melee, ranged, aoe, whatever they can to get it off you. That's their job.

Edited October 29, 2014 by azudelphi

[MillionsKNives]

They take less damage and generate less threat with it on them?

 

Minimally less damage, and slightly less threat on a spec that already generates pitiful amounts of threat. So basically...it does nothing to help.

 

If something happens to go hit the healer and I don't manage to pull it away fast enough that it hits the healer once or twice, that cuts into the healer's health. That's less HP for a Sage to use for Noble Sacrifice for more Force to keep everyone else alive. That's a little bit closer to death the healer's going. That's a teensy bit more health I can save the healer should anyone else screw up their jobs and not save them, including myself.

 

It's there as a backup. One I hope I never have to worry about using, but it's there. I can't always expect the DPS guys to grab enemies off the healer in time, and I can't trust myself to not notice things going horribly wrogn in case the healer gets hit and starts freaking and deciding "That's it, this tank is dying because he missed a single mob somehow!"

 

You know, accidents happen.

 

So you're betting your life on 5% less damage? You overestimate its effects.

[hadoken]

Minimally less damage, and slightly less threat on a spec that already generates pitiful amounts of threat. So basically...it does nothing to help.

 

Does the 50% transfer not work in PVE?

[azudelphi]

Does the 50% transfer not work in PVE?

 

It does not.

[Calsetes]

So you're betting your life on 5% less damage? You overestimate its effects.

 

Every little bit helps. I've actually survived a tough fight with a handful of HP before.

[azudelphi]

Every little bit helps. I've actually survived a tough fight with a handful of HP before.

 

Then the tank didn't do their job.

[Calsetes]

Then the tank didn't do their job.

 

This was solo. Just me and a companion.

[Dras_Keto]

This is the straight word.

 

Guarding a healer to protect them from damage does not help. I explained why it doesnt help in the first post, Combat Mechanics section.

 

But, to paraphrase both what I have said and what others have said in this thread, and indeed in these last few posts:

 

Guarding a healer gives them a PERCENT reduction in the aggro they generate. IE, they are still generating threat, only a bit less of it than the reduced amount they already were. But the point is, the reason that the stuff is attacking the healer is not because the healer is generating too much threat and needs to tone it down... its because no one else is generating any threat at all on the mobs.

 

Heals produce aggro on everything in combat. Damage and Taunts only generate aggro on the things they effect.

 

Furthermore, if theres stuff attacking the healer, you cannot always blame the tank. Tanks only have so many tools at their disposal to force enemies to group up. Sometimes they dont have much of a choice and a couple mobs are left loose. In those situations, if stuff is attacking the healer, its the fault of the dps.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Dras_Keto

[azudelphi]

This is the straight word.

 

Guarding a healer to protect them from damage does not help. I explained why it doesnt help in the first post, Combat Mechanics section.

 

But, to paraphrase both what I have said and what others have said in this thread, and indeed in these last few posts:

 

Guarding a healer gives them a PERCENT reduction in the aggro they generate. IE, they are still generating threat, only a big less of it than the reduced amount they already were. But the point is, the reason that the stuff is attacking the healer is not because the healer is generating too much threat and needs to tone it down... its because no one else is generating any threat at all on the mobs.

 

Heals produce aggro on everything in combat. Damage and Taunts only generate aggro on the things they effect.

 

Furthermore, if theres stuff attacking the healer, you cannot always blame the tank. Tanks only have so many tools at their disposal to force enemies to group up. Sometimes they dont have much of a choice and a couple mobs are left loose. In those situations, if stuff is attacking the healer, its the fault of the dps.

 

Spot on.

[Dras_Keto]

Spot on.

 

I should hope so... >.>

[Calsetes]

This is the straight word.

 

Guarding a healer to protect them from damage does not help. I explained why it doesnt help in the first post, Combat Mechanics section.

 

But, to paraphrase both what I have said and what others have said in this thread, and indeed in these last few posts:

 

Guarding a healer gives them a PERCENT reduction in the aggro they generate. IE, they are still generating threat, only a bit less of it than the reduced amount they already were. But the point is, the reason that the stuff is attacking the healer is not because the healer is generating too much threat and needs to tone it down... its because no one else is generating any threat at all on the mobs.

 

Heals produce aggro on everything in combat. Damage and Taunts only generate aggro on the things they effect.

 

Furthermore, if theres stuff attacking the healer, you cannot always blame the tank. Tanks only have so many tools at their disposal to force enemies to group up. Sometimes they dont have much of a choice and a couple mobs are left loose. In those situations, if stuff is attacking the healer, its the fault of the dps.

 

And in situations where the healer doesn't know to heal just what you're damaged and instead goes into "I'm a mobile kolto tank" mode, generating tons of hate beyond the tank's hate-generating abilities? Like I said, every little bit helps.

 

Besides, who else gets guard, then? A DPS guy? If the tiny fraction of a damage reduction doesn't help the healer, then why would it help the DPS guy, who's likely in the same boat as the healer to begin with in terms of not getting attacked as long as the tank is doing his job? Every job - including tanks - have a threat dump in case you happen to generate a wee too much hate on you in a party situation. A mechanic like this makes guard pretty much useless, except in an extreme example where everyone's getting hit regardless of interrupts or threat levels. And in those situations, would you want to guard a DPS guy, or a healer? My vote goes to a healer.

 

 

This might change in big group operations-type settings, but I'm approaching it just as a simple four-man group scenario. Flashpoints instead of operations.

[Halinalle]

And in situations where the healer doesn't know to heal just what you're damaged and instead goes into "I'm a mobile kolto tank" mode, generating tons of hate beyond the tank's hate-generating abilities? Like I said, every little bit helps.

 

Only effective heals generate threat. You can throw 24k HP heal but if it only heals for 1k it generates 400 threat.

Wait, what!? You don't have 10% reduction?

 

What tank can do to fix that? Throw a rock. Instant 4000+ threat.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Halinalle