To the Devs working on Disciplines: Remember the NGE?

[Max_Killjoy]

Sure lets just completely ignore statistical facts and throw points at the skill tree like drunks playing darts

 

Very amusing to see a bloody solipsist citing "facts".

[Delta_V]

Perhaps it just doesn't fit with your play style. Having the TD>Sticky Grenade>RS>Punch>RS burst on my PT in PvP is at least half health and can't be healed until I start rail shotting. It fits extremely well into the rotation of the spec and gives it burst that many DoT specs don't have.

 

Your comment on Watchman spec is case in point. There is literally 0 difference between Slash and Merciless Slash besides damage done and % chance of reset. And you still have to proc the reset with Slash frequently anyway, especially now that the ICD is gone. It is a pure damage increase and nothing else, it's just tied to another ability in a direct way rather than simply complimenting the playstyle of the spec. You won't get as many procs without Merciless Slash, but using Slash instead does nothing to change the flow of your rotation. Leap>Overload Saber>Rupture>Rage Builder>Slash>Rupture>Ravage. Just replace the Slash with Merciless Slash when you get the ability and it's the same rotation with more resets and higher damage.

 

 

I can't comment on PTs or Vanguards, as I haven't leveled one yet, but on my Commando, AP just didn't feel that special, at least for PVE. But I will admit that Assault is the spec I am least comfortable with, as I leveled my Commando with a mix of Combat Medic and Gunnery, and those are the specs I have spent the most time playing at endgame.

 

For Watchman, Merciless Slash greatly reduces the number of GCDs you spend fishing for the Cauterize reset, as a single Merciless Slash is more likely to proc the reset than two Slashes used back to back (25% chance of failure vs ~30%). That in turn reduces the Focus spent fishing for procs and increases the uptime on Cauterize, which increases Focus generation. The rotation is just much more streamlined with Merciless Slash than without it.

[Sorwen]

As to NGE people seem to be ignroing why it failed. Yes it was a huge change to the game, but it didn't fail just because it changed. It failed because how it changed. After having the freedom to creat your character in your way it went to a very rigid class system. It fail because it whent from and abundance of choices to none at all. The game actully picked up later once they started adding more choices the idnidivaual classes, but it was never going to pick up to where it was because of that lack of choice.

 

I'm sorry, but the bs about choice aside they are going from choice in build to railroading you with a little fluf on the side. It is less likely to fail specatucarly as NGE did, but it could easily still blow up in their face. It will lose players because it is a huge change and dumbing down of the game for some. Its hard to say how many at this point will go either direction.

 

You think they don't know this already? Like they just do these things on a whim or something?

 

They've thought this through. The least we can do is give it a chance before rioting.

We've had multiple proof they don't think things through at times. From beta till now. What they do is what they want to do in spite of what is going on around them.

 

 

It's not nge, it's basically the same thing WoW did. They're copying one another now. WoW introduces garrisons which are basically strongholds and swtor introduced disciplines which are wow-like new talent system.

SWtOR has always copied WoW and has admitted such from day one.

 

Disciplines really isn't changing the game at all. You're getting the same results in a more streamlined fashion.

You can't always get the same result. That is their whole point in chaning it.

 

Kind of funny anyone even considers this anything like the NGE.

 

Seriously. How can anyone even make the comparison?

How can anyone not. The difference is potentially the sope of the issue is less, but that is no guarentee it will be.

[TUXs]

As to NGE people seem to be ignroing why it failed. Yes it was a huge change to the game, but it didn't fail just because it changed. It failed because how it changed. After having the freedom to creat your character in your way it went to a very rigid class system.

The NGE drastically altered FAR more than classes - the entire way combat worked in SWG was transformed. It went from a tab target MMO to a FPS style MMO. This isn't anything like that in any way at all. The only similarity is the removal of unintended (and impossible to account for) hybrid specs.

 

Altering the way skills are picked/awarded isn't even close to what the NGE was.

[Raansu]

As to NGE people seem to be ignroing why it failed. Yes it was a huge change to the game, but it didn't fail just because it changed. It failed because how it changed. After having the freedom to creat your character in your way it went to a very rigid class system. It fail because it whent from and abundance of choices to none at all. The game actully picked up later once they started adding more choices the idnidivaual classes, but it was never going to pick up to where it was because of that lack of choice.

 

I'm sorry, but the bs about choice aside they are going from choice in build to railroading you with a little fluf on the side. It is less likely to fail specatucarly as NGE did, but it could easily still blow up in their face. It will lose players because it is a huge change and dumbing down of the game for some. Its hard to say how many at this point will go either direction.

 

 

We've had multiple proof they don't think things through at times. From beta till now. What they do is what they want to do in spite of what is going on around them.

 

 

 

SWtOR has always copied WoW and has admitted such from day one.

 

 

You can't always get the same result. That is their whole point in chaning it.

 

 

How can anyone not. The difference is potentially the sope of the issue is less, but that is no guarentee it will be.

 

Unlike SWG, swtor gameplay isn't being revamped...The combat will still be the same, the content will still be the same, the crafting will still be same....all they are doing is taking the skill trees and streamlining it and removing the ability to create hybrids....thats it.

 

The specs will change slightly, but overall their general functions remain the same. Lightning spec still gets an auto crit on thundering blast with affliction on the target, chain lightning still gets a reset, etc...They just pushed certain things into utilities like the root on overload and bubble stun and they added new things like being able to cast thundering blast on the move.

 

The spec overall will still function mostly the same and this will most likely remain true for all the other specs. Nothing is being drastically altered. Its not even on the same scale as SWG.

[Jimvinny]

Right, and anyone who doesn't engage in daily 8-man or bigger content should GTHO of your special MMO world...

 

"blah blah blah trinity blah blah blah synergy blah blah blah."

 

It's like listening to the CEO meetings I have to sit through, all buzzwords and nothing important.

 

You think its funny to completely discount someone who plays differently that you do, yet that is exactly what you are doing. I desire proper game balance so that how I play can work, and you're telling me my needs don't matter. Coming from someone who has now admitted they don't really know how classes even work, those words are ringing pretty hollow. Now you're even resorting to blah blah blah to blow someone off. Not that your credibility was worth much before, but its certainly gone now.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Jimvinny

[Arkerus]

Right, and anyone who doesn't engage in daily 8-man or bigger content should GTHO of your special MMO world...

 

"blah blah blah trinity blah blah blah synergy blah blah blah."

 

It's like listening to the CEO meetings I have to sit through, all buzzwords and nothing important.

 

While I completely understand your complaint I also understand there they are coming from. It doesn't really make sense, casual or not, to skip over "must have" talents. Yes - YOU can play without it and in some solo circumstances it might make sense (aka saving points for another tree) but the reality is that you can't play the class as effectively in any group content. And honestly, taking the must have talents is better for solo content IF you are playing the tree/class as intended.

 

But here is the good news: now it doesn't matter. Bioware is saying "look, you need to take this as part of the skill tree." They are acknowledging that technically this makes the most sense for the class tree as a whole. Now you don't have to make a choice in terms of effectiveness. They will make you as effective as you can be within that spec. Instead, you get to make real choices in terms of abilities and PLAY STYLES. It should excite people more that they don't have to worry about whether they dumped those points correctly. Now they can decide how they want to play the class with meaningful choices in the right side of the class skill window.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Arkerus

[azudelphi]

Right, and anyone who doesn't engage in daily 8-man or bigger content should GTHO of your special MMO world...

 

"blah blah blah trinity blah blah blah synergy blah blah blah."

 

It's like listening to the CEO meetings I have to sit through, all buzzwords and nothing important.

 

His points regarding the spec ring just as true to solo play as they do to end game raiding or pvp... so what are you on about?

[TUXs]

Right, and anyone who doesn't engage in daily 8-man or bigger content should GTHO of your special MMO world...

 

"blah blah blah trinity blah blah blah synergy blah blah blah."

 

It's like listening to the CEO meetings I have to sit through, all buzzwords and nothing important.

Your current build was never intended Max. It's allowed, but it was never intended. You need to be less selfish.

[ikinai]

Your current build was never intended Max. It's allowed, but it was never intended. You need to be less selfish.

 

And start listening to your CEO, they actually say things from time to time that matter. Things like, we are going to need to downsize and will be reviewing everyones performance.

[Sorwen]

The specs will change slightly, but overall their general functions remain the same. Lightning spec still gets an auto crit on thundering blast with affliction on the target, chain lightning still gets a reset, etc...They just pushed certain things into utilities like the root on overload and bubble stun and they added new things like being able to cast thundering blast on the move.

Actually specs will change everything from slightly to totally not existing any more. For some people what build they played will totally not exist anymore. That is where the contention is coming from in the first place.

[Raansu]

Actually specs will change everything from slightly to totally not existing any more. For some people what build they played will totally not exist anymore. That is where the contention is coming from in the first place.

 

Hybrid specs never mattered. BW has always gone out of their way to kill them, so to even mention them as a complain in the new system is stupid considering hybrids were never intended to be viable in the first place. Full spec nothing is changing, that we know of so far outside of adjustments like new abilities but overall those specs are going to function the same.

 

Time to accept the fact that this game was never designed with hybrids in mind and BW has NEVER supported them.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Raansu

[TUXs]

And start listening to your CEO, they actually say things from time to time that matter. Things like, we are going to need to downsize and will be reviewing everyones performance.

And that is exactly why I sit on work that needs to be done all the time...I save it up to look busy when it matters

[Arkerus]

Actually specs will change everything from slightly to totally not existing any more. For some people what build they played will totally not exist anymore. That is where the contention is coming from in the first place.

 

I would venture to an educated guess that no matter what build a person is using the majority of their decision points will appear in the new talent "path".

The ONLY people affected are people who used 2-3 trees to make some kind of wacky hybrid that Bioware doesn't want in the game anyway.

 

I know it sounds bad, but a small majority of people were using a completely illogical build to either:

A) "Cheat" the system and create a superior hybrid

b) Had no idea what they were doing

 

Its time to move on.

 

Group A? Too bad. Their time is over. Hybrid builds that take advantage of two trees to build superior specs was never intended.

 

Group B? This will help them. They will see a lot of benefit (increased dps, healing, etc) from choosing a single specialization.

[Max_Killjoy]

You think its funny to completely discount someone who plays differently that you do, yet that is exactly what you are doing. I desire proper game balance so that how I play can work, and you're telling me my needs don't matter. Coming from someone who has now admitted they don't really know how classes even work, those words are ringing pretty hollow. Now you're even resorting to blah blah blah to blow someone off. Not that your credibility was worth much before, but its certainly gone now.

 

Again, love how "doesn't agree with our assessment of the specific skills" = "doesn't know how the skills work". The skills have tooltips that make seeing what they do trivial.

 

I don't object to proper game balance, or making the skill system more "future proof". I don't object to the basic theory of how they're going to do it. What I do object to is burning down the entire forest to kill half a dozen trees.

 

I don't dismiss what you enjoy about the game or how you play. What I do dismiss is how certain people keeping citing the requirements of those parts of the game as the only valid criteria by which to judge a build -- and thereby implicitly dismissing anyone else's priorities.

 

As for blah blah blah, look at what I'm replying to -- everything he posts comes down to "It must be this way because it must be this way because it must be this way" and "you're wrong because you don't agree with me".

 

 

Your current build was never intended Max. It's allowed, but it was never intended. You need to be less selfish.

 

I'm trying to figure out how it's selfish to suggest that there must be a way to fix the problems that exist and future-proof the skill system -- thus benefiting several segments of the playerbase -- while not removing something that a different segment of the playerbase really enjoys.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[azudelphi]

Again, love how "doesn't agree with our assessment of the specific skills" = "doesn't know how the skills work". The skills have tooltips that make seeing what they do trivial.

 

I don't object to proper game balance, or making the skill system more "future proof". I don't object to the basic theory of how they're going to do it. What I do object to is burning down the entire forest to kill half a dozen trees.

 

I don't dismiss what you enjoy about the game or how you play. What I do dismiss is how certain people keeping citing the requirements of those parts of the game as the only valid criteria by which to judge a build -- and thereby implicitly dismissing anyone else's priorities.

 

As for blah blah blah, look at what I'm replying to -- everything he posts comes down to "It must be this way because it must be this way because it must be this way" and "you're wrong because you don't agree with me".

 

They aren't burning down the entire forest. They're applying a fertilizer to a crop; unfortunately a small percent of the crop reacts poorly with the fertilizer and dies.

 

As to understanding the abilities, you've given no proof one way or the other. People ask questions regarding your understanding and you avoid them. Here is your chance to not avoid it: Why don't you like Sever Force / Creeping Terror? What about that ability is underwhelming and not ideal to your trying Balance / Madness purebuild? What if any impacts do the sum totals of a Balance / Madness skills do to SF / CT? What is the estimated % of total DPS from the ability? What is the indirect increase in DPS by having that ability vs not having that ability?

[TUXs]

I don't object to proper game balance, or making the skill system more "future proof". I don't object to the basic theory of how they're going to do it. What I do object to is burning down the entire forest to kill half a dozen trees.

You can't look at it that way...think about 2.0 and what 3.0 will have in common - 5 extra skill points!

 

What they did with 2.0 was simply extend your trees a bit, to make the higher tier skills just take 36 vs 31 points to acquire. If they did the same thing with 3.0, we'd need to have 41 points invested (vs 31 by design) to get the top tier skills, which just adds even more useless fluff skills between them (something you yourself point out as a reason already to stop you from going up an entire tree), increasing the popularity and desirability of hybrids. Hybrids would forever continue to creep up if they kept doing what they did with 2.0. This was an issue that they needed to address to counter the nearly infinite unintended combos that players might come up with.

Edited October 15, 2014 by TUXs

[azudelphi]

You can't look at it that way...think about 2.0 and what 3.0 will have in common - 5 extra skill points!

 

What they did with 2.0 was simply extend your trees a bit, to make the higher tier skills just take 36 vs 31 points to acquire. If they did the same thing with 3.0, we'd need to have 41 points invested (vs 31 by design) to get the top tier skills, which just adds even more useless fluff skills between them, increasing the popularity and desirability of hybrids. Hybrids would forever continue to creep up if they kept doing what they did with 2.0. This was an issue that they needed to address to counter the nearly infinite unintended combos that players might come up with.

 

This is clearly the technical reason behind their change.

Edited October 15, 2014 by azudelphi

[Jadescythe]

Again, love how "doesn't agree with our assessment of the specific skills" = "doesn't know how the skills work". The skills have tooltips that make seeing what they do trivial.

 

I don't object to proper game balance, or making the skill system more "future proof". I don't object to the basic theory of how they're going to do it. What I do object to is burning down the entire forest to kill half a dozen trees.

 

I don't dismiss what you enjoy about the game or how you play. What I do dismiss is how certain people keeping citing the requirements of those parts of the game as the only valid criteria by which to judge a build -- and thereby implicitly dismissing anyone else's priorities.

 

As for blah blah blah, look at what I'm replying to -- everything he posts comes down to "It must be this way because it must be this way because it must be this way" and "you're wrong because you don't agree with me".

 

People have elaborated numerous times that ineffective builds are not a problem, but overpowered builds that were not intended have impacts on multiple parts of the game. While PvP as a primary form of play in this game is in the minority, the majority of players still take part at times. We can't have specs that vastly outperform others in a game mode which puts players against other players. This alone is reason enough to balance based on what a spec is capable of in skilled hands and not what the typical person will do with it.

 

Most of your arguments come down to claiming the person you quotes was attacking you personally in some way, yet you spend an entire post talking about elitests and how all hardcore PvErs are just e-peen stroking teenagers. You have a double standard for yourself that includes keeping the game the way it works best for you and the minority of players on your side while discounting the great benefits to the majority.

[Max_Killjoy]

They aren't burning down the entire forest. They're applying a fertilizer to a crop; unfortunately a small percent of the crop reacts poorly with the fertilizer and dies.

 

As to understanding the abilities, you've given no proof one way or the other. People ask questions regarding your understanding and you avoid them. Here is your chance to not avoid it: Why don't you like Sever Force / Creeping Terror? What about that ability is underwhelming and not ideal to your trying Balance / Madness purebuild? What if any impacts do the sum totals of a Balance / Madness skills do to SF / CT? What is the estimated % of total DPS from the ability? What is the indirect increase in DPS by having that ability vs not having that ability?

 

I'm sorry that I can't pop SWTOR up and look at the the skills at work, while I'm running reports, and sending emails, and waiting on hold for someone at a plant to go get his boss off the production floor so I can ask what the hell is going on there. I don't look them up every few days and memorize them, I just remember that I didn't care for them last time I had to reassign the points due to a "helpful" reset by Bioware.

 

 

You can't look at it that way...think about 2.0 and what 3.0 will have in common - 5 extra skill points!

 

What they did with 2.0 was simply extend your trees a bit, to make the higher tier skills just take 36 vs 31 points to acquire. If they did the same thing with 3.0, we'd need to have 41 points invested (vs 31 by design) to get the top tier skills, which just adds even more useless fluff skills between them (something you yourself point out as a reason already to stop you from going up an entire tree), increasing the popularity and desirability of hybrids. Hybrids would forever continue to creep up if they kept doing what they did with 2.0. This was an issue that they needed to address to counter the nearly infinite unintended combos that players might come up with.

 

As I've said, that's been explained as one of the reasons, and I get it, and that's why I've withdrawn my objection to some kind of major change in how this part of the game works. What you're saying makes sense and is a perfectly justifiable reason to do something else.

 

"Something else" doesn't have to involve the straightjacket version we're getting, and doesn't have to kill off every last build that isn't uberoptimized to the last 0.5%...

Edited October 15, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[azudelphi]

I'm sorry that I can't pop SWTOR up and look at the the skills at work, while I'm running reports, and sending emails, and waiting on hold for someone at a plant to go get his boss off the production floor so I can ask what the hell is going on there. I don't look them up every few days and memorize them, I just remember that I didn't care for them last time I had to reassign the points due to a "helpful" reset by Bioware.

 

Frankly, if you are going to speak out that the top tier abilities are not worthwhile, you better be in a position to back that up with a well reasoned defense. Otherwise you get responses like the ones you are getting...

 

And it was "helpful" considering the fact that non-subscribers would have had to pay to respec. So it was rather nice of them to give a free respec after they had made modifications to that advanced class's skills.

[BuriDogshin]

People have elaborated numerous times that ineffective builds are not a problem, but overpowered builds that were not intended have impacts on multiple parts of the game. While PvP as a primary form of play in this game is in the minority, the majority of players still take part at times. We can't have specs that vastly outperform others in a game mode which puts players against other players. This alone is reason enough to balance based on what a spec is capable of in skilled hands and not what the typical person will do with it.

It matters in PvE too. When one advanced class has an over-powered build, competing advanced classes have less opportunities to join group activities, because the group is looking for someone from the over-powered advanced class.

 

Merc healers had this problem until the recent buff: no one wanted them.

If you were a player who loved running a merc healer, this lessened your opportunities to enjoy the game.

[Max_Killjoy]

And it was "helpful" considering the fact that non-subscribers would have had to pay to respec. So it was rather nice of them to give a free respec after they had made modifications to that advanced class's skills.

 

My suggestion to Bioware would have been "Skills have changed for this class -- would you like to reset your points for free? Y/N" as a popup when you first log in, instead of the automatic "your skill points have been refunded, hope you remember the build you put together months ago".

[azudelphi]

My suggestion to Bioware would have been "Skills have changed for this class -- would you like to reset your points for free? Y/N" as a popup when you first log in, instead of the automatic "your skill points have been refunded, hope you remember the build you put together months ago".

 

The Skill-Database / Table on the back-end before the change is likely different that the one after it... re-ordering skills, adding skills, removing skills, changing total points for a skill... any one of those changes throws off the server side of things. Basically, it could be a matter of square peg - round hole type deal.

Edited October 15, 2014 by azudelphi

[XiamaraSimi]

NGE was a complete revamp of the game. Disciplines remove hybrids and the illusion of choice.

 

Completely different scale bud!

 

Thisx1000

 

When disciplines go live, when I log in, my marauder will still be a marauder, my assassin will still be an assassin. When the NGE hit SWG, my Master Creature Handler/Master Swords no longer existed.

 

Completely different scenarios, and as an ex SWG player, I'm actually insulted at the OP trying to use it as a "comparison".

Edited October 15, 2014 by XiamaraSimi