Anyone else totally bummed at the complete removal of Hybrids?

[Bomberman]

What I fear the "new system" will do is show that our dev team is lazy and couldn't balance pvp so they took away many of the players choices. Plus it is unlikely to bring back players....after all it isn't new content....just a revamped skill tree.

 

Hope it is a great change but I won't hold my breath

A fair point. However I do think that balancing was a lot of the issue and took most of their time in the past. I don't claim to know this it's just a thought.

True but it may bring in other players who might have thought the current system was too complex etc.

Either way I'm interested in seeing where this goes when 3.0 hits.

I am looking forward to it personally.

[Elyx]

I'm not directly opposed to this change. When WoW initially came out with their "simplification" to the skill trees, it literally drove me away from the game. a few expansions later, and they have changed things up quite a bit, and I don't think this is a bad approach...merely a different one.

 

After listening to the Dev's, i understand that their intentions with the skill setup aren't an "open choice" concept. They always had in mind the desire to isolate trees...and many of the balance changes and adjustments they've done in the past speak to this concept.

 

The traditional skill tree is what limited their design intentions. no clue why they decided to go with that idea, as there were many other ways to accomplish what they wanted...but its what they used at the time.

 

At this point im neither here nor there. if they do it well, what we will have is clear differences in AC's, with flexibility in our utility skill choices. much better then WoW's initial attempt at this. the "hybrid" is being funnelled into the utilites. Yeah...tru hybridization is dying, but this game wasn't really set up around it to be honest. it was a "funnelled" class system with an "open choice" feel to it. the flexibility of the game allowed people to actually make oddball hybridization. But it wasn't a choice in design...it was a limitation with the model they had to work with at the time.

 

While I empathize with those who really enjoyed the eccentric hybrid design options (like literally spreading your points out equally in the trees...ignoring top tier skills, etc.), The games design seems more oriented towards the theme-park concept, and is moving more in that direction. basically, they are rediscovering what WoW discovered with their model. Now it will be up to us to see if their version of it still encapsulates what most the players enjoyed about their classes.

 

I'll withholding judgement until i see it in play and try it for myself. While the change effectively killed my future in WoW...I was on the way out already (last few years i was only hopping in once in awhile to play). Im still regularly enjoying this game, so we'll see how it all turns out. I'm not against it, but im not supporting it. But i can see why they are doing it, IMO it was inevetable.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Elyx

[Max_Killjoy]

Then why were you repeatedly saying that you couldn't stomach the thought of being the same spec as everyone else?

 

Way to latch onto a backwards reading of a post and run with that mistaken notion.

[azudelphi]

Trying to figure out how close I can get to this:

 

 

 

Forceweaver 2/2

Seeping Darkness 3/3

Empty Body 2/2

Dark Mending 2/2

Lucidity 1/1

Force Bending 2/2

Resurgence 1/1

Efficacious Currents 2/2

Sith Purity 1/1

Reconstruct 2/2

Force Suffusion 2/2

Innervate 1/1

Corrupted Barrier 2/2

Life Surge 1/2 (had a point to put somewhere...)

 

Reserves 2/2

Electric Induction 3/3

Lightning Barrier 2/2

 

Sith Defiance 2/2

Will of the Sith 2/2

Calcify 1/3 (needed one more point here to open up the next tier)

Oppressing Force 2/2

Force Horrors 3/3

Death Field 1/1

Sith Efficacy 3/3

Madness 1/1

 

 

 

Corruption Disciplines will get you Lucidity, Forceweaver, Force Bending, Effacacious Currents, Innervate, Sith Purity, Rconstruct, Life Surge.

 

Reserves is now built into all Sorcs and Sages.

Electric Induction is removed / built into all Sorcs and Sages.

Will of the Sith is removed / built into all Sorcs and Sages.

 

Calcify has been removed / I can't find the replacement ability.

 

Lightning Barrier is now a Masterful tier Utility.

Opposing Force is now a Skillful tier Utility.

Sith Defiance is now a Skillful tier Utility.

Edit: Corrupted Barrier is now a Heroic tier Utility.

Edit: Force Suffusion is now a Skillful tier Utility.

 

Death Field, Madness, Sith Efficacy, Force Horrors are unique to the Madness tree.

 

Missing only one out of spec activated ability isn't too bad all things considered. Especially since you can replace Death Field with say, "Tempest Mastery: Increase all damage dealt by Force Storm by 25%" the Skillful tier Utility.

Edited October 9, 2014 by azudelphi

[Max_Killjoy]

Regarding the Advanced Classes, I wouldn't have even gone in that direction either -- the less players are forced down one path, the better. If ACs are a must, then to use the weapons as an example, I'd have let Commandos used all their skills with a blaster rifle, allows Shadows and Assassins to use two sabers instead of the suicide staff, etc.

[azudelphi]

Regarding the Advanced Classes, I wouldn't have even gone in that direction either -- the less players are forced down one path, the better. If ACs are a must, then to use the weapons as an example, I'd have let Commandos used all their skills with a blaster rifle, allows Shadows and Assassins to use two sabers instead of the suicide staff, etc.

 

This has more to do with animation budgets than anything.

[Delta_V]

And so the solution is to tell everyone who doesn't want to be a cookie-cutter one-trick-pony, or who wants to build their character around solo play, to take a flying leap?

 

Yes, this is an RPG, but it is also an MMO. Yeah, it might suck that this change affects solo players, but this is still fundamentally a multiplayer game. Balance in group content, where player characters interact with each other, *must* come first.

[Max_Killjoy]

Corruption Disciplines will get you Lucidity, Forceweaver, Force Bending, Effacacious Currents, Innervate, Sith Purity, Rconstruct, Life Surge.

 

Reserves is now built into all Sorcs and Sages.

Electric Induction is removed / built into all Sorcs and Sages.

Will of the Sith is removed / built into all Sorcs and Sages.

 

Calcify has been removed / I can't find the replacement ability.

 

Lightning Barrier is now a Masterful tier Utility.

Opposing Force is now a Skillful tier Utility.

Sith Defiance is now a Skillful tier Utility.

Edit: Corrupted Barrier is now a Heroic tier Utility.

Edit: Force Suffusion is now a Skillful tier Utility.

 

Death Field, Madness, Sith Efficacy, Force Horrors are unique to the Madness tree.

 

Missing only one out of spec activated ability isn't too bad all things considered. Especially since you can replace Death Field with say, "Tempest Mastery: Increase all damage dealt by Force Storm by 25%" the Skillful tier Utility.

 

Am I reading that right -- are you saying that despite all the changes and the talk from the devs about killing hybrids and how hybrids were never their intent... that the sum total of what I would lose off my 55 Sorc is one skill that I put a single point in only to open up the next tier on that tree?

[Elyx]

Regarding the Advanced Classes, I wouldn't have even gone in that direction either -- the less players are forced down one path, the better. If ACs are a must, then to use the weapons as an example, I'd have let Commandos used all their skills with a blaster rifle, allows Shadows and Assassins to use two sabers instead of the suicide staff, etc.

 

Right. I think they biggest issue isn't what they are doing now. it's the choices the made during initial development. they chose a model that allowed for choice...in a game where they didn't want players to have that much choice. As a friend said once during a discussion about WoW's changes, "it was an illusion of choice".

 

Theme-park MMO's are very much this concept. the ability to choose severely limits your growth potential. obviously if you don't care about reaching the "endgame" or have very specific ways you play the game, then that "meta-game" concept doesn't impact you much...but it seems pretty plain from the twitch that it was never their intention that the game was going to allow that flexibility. it's like wanting to carry a gallon of water in a bucket with holes. you hate how it leaks...but some people are enjoying the leak (hey, it waters plants, i can take a shower, it works for me!). when you come along and finally get a bucket with no holes....some of those people are going to be frustrated.

 

So what we have is a dev team who's picture of the game is different then a sub-group of players. previously, the dev's were limited in their ability to eliminate this behavior pattern out of the game as a whole with the older architecture they had decided to use. 3.0 is allowing them to change that architecture to better suit their intentions. This doesn't mean that wanting mroe "choices" in class development is bad...I still play some games that allow a huge flexibility in choices (like path of the exile, as an example.)

 

This just wasn't meant to be one of those games. I knew this awhile ago, I was just wondering how they were going to get it done (and how long it would take them).

[karmaann]

A fair point. However I do think that balancing was a lot of the issue and took most of their time in the past. I don't claim to know this it's just a thought.

True but it may bring in other players who might have thought the current system was too complex etc.

Either way I'm interested in seeing where this goes when 3.0 hits.

I am looking forward to it personally.

 

How can you think a Pve Game will be balanced for PvP, IT CAN'T BE,

I can't believe there is still people to think there is a way:eek:

we've had exactly the same post about exactly the same thing for WOW, i've read this for years, Blizzard was doing

nothing, then tadam new skill tree and Wow is still there, with a Arena season, does it change something NO!

we've had Warriors overpowered, then Druid or rogue ,Warlock were insane etc.... it can't be balanced because your toon is supposed to kill a boss in a flaspoint in the first place, PVP is just to spend time on something else!

[azudelphi]

Am I reading that right -- are you saying that despite all the changes and the talk from the devs about killing hybrids and how hybrids were never their intent... that the sum total of what I would lose off my 55 Sorc is one skill that I put a single point in only to open up the next tier on that tree?

 

You'll lose Death Field, Madness, Sith Efficacy, Force Horrors. Those abilities are considered part of the core identity of the Madness tree.

 

Edit: I also missed Empty Body. That is now a Skillful tier Utility as well.

 

The rest you can pick up in one way or another if it is still in game.

Edited October 9, 2014 by azudelphi

[Max_Killjoy]

You'll lose Death Field, Madness, Sith Efficacy, Force Horrors. Those abilities are considered part of the core identity of the Madness tree.

 

Edit: I also missed Empty Body. That is now a Skillful tier Utility as well.

 

The rest you can pick up in one way or another if it is still in game.

 

That really stinks, then.

[Delta_V]

Am I reading that right -- are you saying that despite all the changes and the talk from the devs about killing hybrids and how hybrids were never their intent... that the sum total of what I would lose off my 55 Sorc is one skill that I put a single point in only to open up the next tier on that tree?

 

The only ones losing out with the new system are the true hybrids - ones that mix healing and dps abilities, or dps abilities from multiple trees. If you sacrificed healing abilities just to pick up extra passives or utilities like CC or defensive stuff, then you won't lose much, in fact, you might be better off. That's because the new system gives you the full tree of core abilities/talents, while letting you select some of the utilities from all three specs.

[azudelphi]

That really stinks, then.

 

Why? I mean, you keep 80% of what you had.

 

What you lose is the core identity of the Madness tree. Unless you want to make Madness your discipline and focus on healing and survivability through your utilities. You'll lose more of that list that way, but you'd have the dps identity of a Madness sorc.

[Elyx]

Am I reading that right -- are you saying that despite all the changes and the talk from the devs about killing hybrids and how hybrids were never their intent... that the sum total of what I would lose off my 55 Sorc is one skill that I put a single point in only to open up the next tier on that tree?

 

That's probably more luck then anything else. your "hybrid" just happened to align with their intentions of class design. there are others in this thread whos skill setups are so far off the norm that they're skill setups are impossible in the new design (I know one guy who literally would spread his points about equally in all 3 trees).

 

I think that once we get into the new setup, we'll find that there is still quite a bit of flexibility. many of the really key utilities from each tree will be available to all 3 trees, and you won't need to drive deep into a tree to unlock most of them.

 

Hybrid as a term in this game is changing. I think that what they are doing is locking in a certain amount of class abilities in order to provide us with more options outside of those abilities then we originally had.

 

As an example...on my DPS (Telikinetics/lightning tree) sage, if i had wanted to unlock the ability to heal others with force wave (would have been a nice utility addition to a DPS spec) I would have to spend 26 points in that tree, lose a ton of DPS potential, and add a bunch of healing bonuses that really don't help me in a DPS role.

 

In the new design, that skill is a utility (and a lower tier one at that), which means that i can either blow monsters away, or heal my allies, or heck do both in an emergency...and still retain my high DPS numbers.

 

though much of the feel, or "illusion" of hybridization is gone, the extra flexibility you have around the more "rigid" core is better then it currently is.

[Max_Killjoy]

Why? I mean, you keep 80% of what you had.

 

What you lose is the core identity of the Madness tree. Unless you want to make Madness your discipline and focus on healing and survivability through your utilities. You'll lose more of that list that way, but you'd have the dps identity of a Madness sorc.

 

And for me the point is that I don't want an "identity".

 

The whole point is to be able, for example, to use Innervate, AND to have no cooldown on my force lighting, AoE whirlwind, etc.

 

What kills me is the amount of venom that some people direct at hybrids. If I'm not playing PvP or endgame, what skin is it off their nose if I'm running some build they consider "suboptimal"?

Edited October 9, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[Bomberman]

How can you think a Pve Game will be balanced for PvP, IT CAN'T BE,

I can't believe there is still people to think there is a way:eek:

we've had exactly the same post about exactly the same thing for WOW, i've read this for years, Blizzard was doing

nothing, then tadam new skill tree and Wow is still there, with a Arena season, does it change something NO!

we've had Warriors overpowered, then Druid or rogue ,Warlock were insane etc.... it can't be balanced because your toon is supposed to kill a boss in a flaspoint in the first place, PVP is just to spend time on something else!

 

I think you were misinterpreting my post.

I don't think a PvE game is balanced for PvP. I was saying I think one of the reasons for this system change was that balancing was taking a lot of their time so they had less time to focus on making other content Operations, Flashpoints etc. In 3.0 they won't have to put as much time into balancing as before.

Either way I was just saying this should be good as we may get more content and soon was all.

[Ryuku-sama]

And for me the point is that I don't want an "identity".

 

The whole point is to be able, for example, to use Innervate, AND to have no cooldown on my force lighting, AoE whirlwind, etc.

 

What kills me is the amount of venom that some people direct at hybrids. If I'm not playing PvP or endgame, what skin is it off their nose if I'm running some build they consider "suboptimal"?

 

Because other people will run these kind of UP hybrid into endgame.

Because some people will find OP hybrid to smash you to bit in PvP.

Because other hybrid will just cheese part of the content without any trouble.

[azudelphi]

And for me the point is that I don't want an "identity".

 

The whole point is to be able, for example, to use Innervate, AND to have no cooldown on my force lighting, AoE whirlwind, etc.

 

What kills me is the amount of venom that some people direct at hybrids. If I'm not playing PvP or endgame, what skin is it off their nose if I'm running some build they consider "suboptimal"?

 

Well, to be honest, the devs never wanted you to have that synergy. The fact that you have had it this long, only comes from the fact that it doesn't pose a serious issue in group play.

 

But other combinations did and still do. So the system *has* to change and the players *have* to adapt. They can't build a combat engine around the fact you want a specific heal and to spam lightning. They have to build it around what is balanced for group play. That's all this comes down to.

[Max_Killjoy]

Because other people will run these kind of UP hybrid into endgame.

Because some people will find OP hybrid to smash you to bit in PvP.

Because other hybrid will just cheese part of the content without any trouble.

 

1) don't group with them

2) how the heck does any one hybrid build get that bad in the first place unless certain talents are poorly made?

3) not anyone else's issue but the individual player

[Cordarn]

I was under the impression that disciplines would give more options for hybrids.

[azudelphi]

I was under the impression that disciplines would give more options for hybrids.

 

They take away multi-spec abilities, but there are a lot of the non-core options available through the utilities.

Edited October 9, 2014 by azudelphi

[Max_Killjoy]

Well, to be honest, the devs never wanted you to have that synergy. The fact that you have had it this long, only comes from the fact that it doesn't pose a serious issue in group play.

 

But other combinations did and still do. So the system *has* to change and the players *have* to adapt. They can't build a combat engine around the fact you want a specific heal and to spam lightning. They have to build it around what is balanced for group play. That's all this comes down to.

 

A well-made system would allow for the complete lack of specializations, "identifies", and even classes themselves, and still be perfectly balanced no matter how a character is put together.

 

The fact that they've never been able to do that with all the limitations and railroading of SWTOR, and my experience of the continued problems with build and balance in post-dumbing WoW, makes this notion of creating a more balanced system by creating a more spoon-fed, cookie-cutter system absolutely laughable to me.

 

Hammering the choice and customization out of the builds isn't going to fix anything, it's just going to make the game less interesting.

[azudelphi]

A well-made system would allow for the complete lack of specializations, "identifies", and even classes themselves, and still be perfectly balanced no matter how a character is put together.

 

The fact that they've never been able to do that with all the limitations and railroading of SWTOR, and my experience of the continued problems with build and balance in post-dumbing WoW, makes this notion of creating a more balanced system by creating a more spoon-fed, cookie-cutter system absolutely laughable to me.

 

Hammering the choice and customization out of the builds isn't going to fix anything, it's just going to make the game less interesting.

 

A well made system is one where there is both control and freedom. Control over the outputs (dps, hps, and tps) and freedom to choose non-critical but self-defining traits. The current system has too much freedom over the outputs; the new system aims to have both control and freedom.

 

Maybe not all the freedom you want, but all the control and freedom PVE and PVP need.

 

And it's not cookie-cutter thanks to the utilities. You can focus on additional damage dealing, survivability, mobility, healing, etc... but no, you can't just mash Madness and Corruption together any more.

 

And saying, "A well-made system"... what would you change? Other than a hypothetical one with no details associated to it... this may seem harsh, but it really seems like you are groaning over losing your wonky spec and need to get over yourself. This is definitely a good thing for the longevity of the game...

 

Edit: Plus, your dismissal of the issue of balance is entirely out of line considering you don't have to enter the instances where it is key from your own anti-social (by definition) tendencies.

Edited October 9, 2014 by azudelphi

[Bomberman]

A well made system is one where there is both control and freedom. Control over the outputs (dps, hps, and tps) and freedom to choose non-critical but self-defining traits. The current system has too much freedom over the outputs; the new system aims to have both control and freedom.

 

Maybe not all the freedom you want, but all the control and freedom PVE and PVP need.

 

And it's not cookie-cutter thanks to the utilities. You can focus on additional damage dealing, survivability, mobility, healing, etc... but no, you can't just mash Madness and Corruption together any more.

 

And saying, "A well-made system"... what would you change? Other than a hypothetical one with no details associated to it... this may seem harsh, but it really seems like you are groaning over losing your wonky spec and need to get over yourself. This is definitely a good thing for the longevity of the game...

^

Pretty much everything he's been saying is correct.

I like this guy. He really know's what he's talking about and is able to put it across in a well thought out manner.